Author Topic: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster  (Read 3045 times)

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« on: February 04, 2020, 11:14:08 PM »
Well, call me a foolish old fat man, but I am currently beginning work on a couple of new uniforms (and related kit) which I can hopefully get completed in time for this year's National Muster ...

The proposed "impression" will be that of the North West Mounted Police circa 1885-1895, and will consist of both a dress uniform and, for shooting, a common form of "patrol dress" -

One week ago, I pretty much "fell into" a reproduction NWMP Pattern 1882 tunic which actually fits me!  Since I already have a great deal of kit which is appropriate to these two impressions (or can be fairly easily adapted) I decided to give it a go ...

However, knowing how unlikely it is that conditions at the end of June in central Nebraska will permit shooting in the full uniform, I have decided to also put together a suitable undress/field uniform incorporating a the cotton "stable jacket" (part of a complete fatigue uniform of very plain jacket, trousers and cap issued to NWMP Other Ranks in that time-frame, and often used as a comfortable and practical jacket on patrol. 

The two uniforms will be essentially as seen in these extracts from colour plates in Osprey's Men-at-Arms #197, "The Royal Canadian Mounted Police 1873-1987" -



One difference I should mention - the red tunic worn in the above image is the Pattern 1876 tunic, whereas the one I have is a Pattern 1882 tunic ... virtually identical, except it has a slightly higher collar and the yellow/gold shoulder cords are replaced with red shoulder straps, edged in yellow/gold piping the same as the rest of the piping on the tunic.

Another likely difference ... I doubt if I will bother trying to reproduce the rather silly little deerstalker-type cap, and will likely opt for the much better sun protection of a stetson, as worn by the Constable here (in stable jacket and chaps (... no, chaps would be too hot! ...) armed with Winchester rifle and Enfield revolver, and by these fellows in the full fatigue uniform ...



As some of you will know, I do not suffer from a shortage of firearms, and accordingly have several from which to choose for this venture ... including my reproduction NWMP-pattern Model 1876 Winchester carbine and an original .577 Snider cavalry carbine.  Similarly, if I choose to shoot in one of the "two gun" categories rather than as a Rifleman, I have several suitable choices: a .450 Adams revolver, an actual NWMP-issue .455 Enfield Mk II revolver, a Model 1878 Colt Double Action revolver (Canada Militia issue, a batch of which were on loan to the NWMP) and even two different "clones" of the S&W No. 3 revolver, thirty of which were acquired by the NWMP in the "Russian Model" and smaller caliber versions of which were acquired for the use of senior NCOs and Officers ...

Choices ... Choices ...  ???
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2020, 08:53:50 AM »
Looking forward to see what you come up with. I?m sure it will be spot on. For my RCMP outfit I went Hollywood with a Sgt Preston RNWMP impression as it being one of my favorite Saturday morning shows when I was a kid. I bought some insignia for it but can?t find it now. I used a heavy brown Stratton DI hat only to realize that the Montana style creases are 45 degrees off. I even bought a stuffed husky, Yukon King, that I carry to the shoots with me. He?s a good boy and will stay right by my side. My faux 73/76 carbine is almost done too. And as far as you not being able to use your nice faux 73/76 carbine in a sass match why couldn?t you call it a Spanish Contract carbine, which as you know was a real rifle that Winchester built. Some had cleaning rods, sling swivels and some didnt. I used a krag band for my upper sling swivel/ band. Had to do a little fitting but now I have two bands that work. Haven?t inlet the lower swivel yet, still on the fence. A reproduction 1873 Spanish Contract carbine is a hell of a lot more correct cas rifle than a ?modern? Henry tube loading rifle. Stay warm.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2020, 10:34:38 AM »
As usual Jack, you will stun all with your sartorial magnificence.  (an he's right purty too!)
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2020, 12:49:23 PM »
Looking forward to see what you come up with. I?m sure it will be spot on. For my RCMP outfit I went Hollywood with a Sgt Preston RNWMP impression as it being one of my favorite Saturday morning shows when I was a kid. I bought some insignia for it but can?t find it now. I used a heavy brown Stratton DI hat only to realize that the Montana style creases are 90 degrees off. I even bought a stuffed husky, Yukon King, that I carry to the shoots with me. My faux 73/76 carbine is almost done too. And as far as you not being able to use your nice faux 73/76 carbine in a sass match why couldn?t you call it a Spanish Contract carbine, which as you know was a real rifle that Winchester built. Some had sling swivels and some didnt. I used a krag band for my upper sling swivel/ band. Had to do a little fitting but now I have two bands that work. Haven?t inlet the lower swivel yet, still on the fence. A reproduction 1873 Spanish Contract carbine is a hell of a lot more correct cas rifle than a ?modern? Henry tube loading rifle. Stay warm.

Ed:  I'm not aware of a reason why a faux 76 based on a '73 action couldn't be used in a SASS match, and I have in fact used mine in matches (albeit not SASS matches, but unfortunately, from what I have been told I gather that despite well-documented use as military-issue rifles, under the GAF rules any lever-action rifle will shunt the shooter into one of the "Civilian" categories (... in particular, "Militia", if competing in uniform ...) which, of course, removes one out of any possible running for the Brigade Champion ("Iron Trooper") award.  To quaify for that, one must be shooting in a Military category (in uniform, and must place first, second or third in one's main match category, as well as in both the Long Range Rifle and Precision Pistol events.  Although I have won it twice before when requirments were less stringent, the chances are admittedly mighty slim of this particular slow old man doing it again with the requirements as they are now ... but it would be nice to at least have the chance, slim as it may be, to complete my "hat trick" (ice hoickey term) of Iron Trooper medals ...

I do actually have a faux NWMP carbine built on a a Model 1873 action (chambered in .45 Colt) AND also a reproduction Model 1876 in the original .45-75 chambering ...but (if the rules were not so "exclusionary" of lever-action rifles in the Military categories) believe that I would have to use the full-size M'1876, anyway ...

Here's my full-size .45-75 reproduction 1876 -


... and my faux .45 Colt "1873/76" -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2020, 12:57:37 PM »
I must have misunderstood about using your 73/76 then. If the Muster wasn?t so far away I would love to attend one.
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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:15:08 PM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2020, 01:52:27 PM »
I know most military '76s went to the NWMP, but some went to militia units. Most of the scout units were completely militia in concept and actual make-up, but some military units were deployed and issued with the '76 military carbine. I am thinking of the "Geegees", the Governor Generals Horse Guards (GGHG). With the make-up of Canadian military forces at the time, ALL being called militia, The GGHG were Non-Permanent Active Militia and called out. About as close to the military category considering the legal make-up of Canada's forces at the time. The problem remains of the GAF rule prohibiting any leveraction in the military class.

RSJ; Congratulations on your kit for the muster. it seems that you have numerous options available to you.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 04:28:13 PM »
Sir Charles:

Yes, as you say, the Regular Cavalry units in action during the 1885 North-West Rebellion were indeed all armed with .45-75 Model 1876 carbines - including The Governor General's Body Guard for Ontario - as the GGHG were named from 1867 to 1895 (... thereafter named The Governor General's Body Guard for Upper Canada until 1936, when finally named The Governor General's Horse Guards.) 

Here's a photo of a tent squad of The Governor-General's Body Guard in their camp at Humboldt, District of Saskatchewan, in 1885 -


Detail from that photo:


A few images from The Canadian Pictoria & Illustrated War News ...







Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2020, 05:28:23 PM »
My firearm choices for this impression -

Long Arm -
 
Snider-Enfield Cavalry Carbine, .577 Snider, in primary service 1873-1885 -


Model 1876 Winchester carbine, NWMP Pattern, .45-75 Winchester, in primary service 1878-1915 -


Handgun -

Mark III Adams revolver, .450 Adams, in primary service 1875-1886 -


Mark II Enfield revolver, .455 Enfield, in primry service 1882-1905 -


Model 1878 Colt double Action revolver, .45 Colt, undetermined number loaned to NWMP by Dept. of Militia & Defence, about 1885 ... length of service unknown -


And here are two other intriguing possibilities in my collection - two .455 Spanish-made "clones" of that the Model No. 3 S&W revolver (both of which were accepted into British military service as substitute standard revolvers) which I can hopefully have approved as acceptable "stand-ins" for the No. 3 S&W revolvers used by the NWMP in the  1870s to 1890s -


Background:  in 1874, due to the unsatisfactory condition of the Mark I Adams revolvers supplied (five shot conversions from the earlier percussion model, and not what had been ordered) the NWMP acquired a suplemental batch of thirty No. 3 Smith & Wesson revolvers (Russian Model). Also, beginning in the 1880s, the NWMP purchased a number of No. 3 S&W revolvers for issue to non-commissioned officers and officers (albeit in .38 S&W chambering.)  Examples of 19th century NWMP-issue S&W revolvers rom "Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973" -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2020, 05:58:57 PM »
I must have misunderstood about using your 73/76 then. If the Muster wasn?t so far away I would love to attend one.

You maybe recall a post somewhere in the past where I said I didn't use it much in cowboy action shooting.  Being built on a salvaged original 1873 action, it is a bit "gritty" and thus wasn't a very fast shooter, so I kinda tended to leave it in the rack and favoured my repro 1866 and 1873 rifles ....

How far away are you from Muster? My driving distance is over 1000 miles, one way ... and have driven significantly further to attend past Musters in Kansas, Iowa and Texas ...



Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2020, 06:17:46 PM »
Rattlesnake, I?m in eastern North Carolina about 1.5 -2.5 hours from the ocean depending on where I go. A fer piece from S Dakota. My wife and I drove to Yellowstone many years ago, a very long drive.
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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #10 on: Today at 09:15:08 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2020, 07:47:20 PM »
Jack, if there are indeed regular Canadian military units (Not police) being issued the M1876, then I will allow it in the Military class, in an appropriate portrayal.  The Lever rule you state is directed toward the short action rifles, (IE pistol caliber) those simply cannot be accommodated in a competition aimed at main battle rifles.  I apologize for the wording and will correct it.  I confess to appalling ignorance of Canadian Military history!

I am not aware of any other use of such weapons as an issue item, but it certainly seems reasonable for Canada.  I would state that it must be in a military configuration, as with any such rifle.  For the 76, it seems this must be the Musket style forearm carbine configuration.

Frankly, the longer this has gone on, and the more I learn, the more open I become to different weapons and configurations, It's a never ending process.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 07:57:22 PM »
Ed, we're in Central Nebraska.  But a far ways for sure.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2020, 03:13:55 AM »
Chuck, the question remains, I suppose, whether a case can be made that a North West Mounted Police impression could, and should, be accepted as "military" for GAF purposes.  Despite the name, it was effectively a military force in organization, discipline, uniforming, weaponry (including artillery!) and all ... and indeed was the only military force in the vast North West Territory transferred from Britain to the Dominion of Canada in 1871 until the 1885 Rebellion (in which it took a very active part and suffered numerous casualties) and then was left to its own devices again for many years when the mobilized forces returned to Eastern Canada within months of their deployment to the North West.

Indeed, most Canadian history buffs are well aware that, when the government of Prime Minister John A. Macdonald learned that the American government was concerned about the military force Canada was forming to send into the lands abutting the 49th Parallel, at the stroke of a pen one word in the founding statute was substituted for another, and the proposed "North West Mounted Rifles" suddenly became the "North West Mounted Police" ... Nothing else was changed!

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Bat 2919

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2020, 09:32:44 AM »
Jack, if there are indeed regular Canadian military units (Not police) being issued the M1876, then I will allow it in the Military class, in an appropriate portrayal.  The Lever rule you state is directed toward the short action rifles, (IE pistol caliber) those simply cannot be accommodated in a competition aimed at main battle rifles.  I apologize for the wording and will correct it.  I confess to appalling ignorance of Canadian Military history!

I am not aware of any other use of such weapons as an issue item, but it certainly seems reasonable for Canada.  I would state that it must be in a military configuration, as with any such rifle.  For the 76, it seems this must be the Musket style forearm carbine configuration.

Frankly, the longer this has gone on, and the more I learn, the more open I become to different weapons and configurations, It's a never ending process.

This would cause me to believe someone doing a Span Am Rough Rider officers impression would be allowed to use a Winchester 1895 lever action saddle ring carbine, not that that single loading a 95 would be very fast.  On the other hand, if you could get your hands on a Russian 95 Musket with a stripper clip guide and pair it with a #3 S&W revolver a Cossack impression could have some fast runs.
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2020, 10:43:53 AM »
Jack;

Tell me more about the Smith & Wesson, .38 S&W caliber arms issued to the NWMP.

The only No. 3 sized frames chambered for .38 S&W that I can find referred to are New Model 3; and they are very rare.

The ones in you photo appear to be DA 38s.  (Five shot)
If they are 3rd &/or 4th model DA 38s; I have some duplicates. (And neat little flap holsters for them.)

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2020, 01:15:28 PM »
Bat, you are correct, and it has been done.  I myself used an M1895 in musket configuration at the 2018 muster, as they were used in the Phillipines as experimental issue.  The 1895 has been specifically mentioned as allowable if in proper configuration.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2020, 05:03:18 PM »
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2020, 05:08:55 PM »
Also, yes Jack, your Spanish.455s are an acceptable substitute.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2020, 12:53:29 AM »
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Yes, I hereby request that this proposal be considered by the Brigade Staff. 

Limiting any resulting approval to the North West Mounted Police - and excluding later iterations of the Force - would be no problem whatsoever, since the Force existed under that specific name only until 1904.  (In that year, it was re-designated as the Royal North West Mounted Police, and did not become the RCMP until 1920.)

A supplementary issue occurs to me, however: while this proposal is under consideration, we perhaps should also consider approving the Royal North West Mounted Police as a recognized military/paramilitary force for purposes of Era of Expansion matches, subject to all other applicable requirements and restrictions.  (That would seem to logically flow from the fprimary proposal.)

I am in favour, of course!   ;D

If desired, I can put together a presentation in greater detail showing how the NWMP, during the 19th century, was constituted and employed as a military force at least as much (if not more) as serving as a police agency. However, I will hold off on that for the moment, unless the Staff requests such additional information. 

I will simply leave things for now with the following question ... admittedly asked somewhat tongue-in-cheek ...

"Do these men look like your averages cops on the beat, or heading off to the donut shop?  

 ;)










Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2020, 04:04:52 AM »
A small "lever-action" sidetrack to this thread:
It is documented in Osprey Publishings: "Weapon series: Winchester Lever-Action Rifles" , page 64, that France in 1914 bought 15,100 Winchester M1894 SRC's with 20" barrels and 5 million rounds of .30-30 ammo.  The carbines were fitted with special side-mounted sling-swivels on the left front barrel band and stock.  This so that they would hang flat against the back of French Army motorcycle dispatch riders.
(black & white photo of mc dispatch rider with slung Saddle Ring Carbine on page 63.)

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