Author Topic: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster  (Read 2302 times)

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2020, 10:45:44 pm »
...  I'm really tempted to find one of the 1875's.  How does yours run?

Now you've got me confused ... don't know whether you meant to type "1873" or "1876" ...   ;)

The 1873/76 faux carbine runs fairly well, but is a little balky ... because of the age of the action, i suspect. 

The 1876 repro runs quite well, and has given me no problems.  Mind you, I haven't really run it all that hard, so  .... "touch wood"!

My 1876 is a Chaparral ... and there was a lengthy thread ongoing for a long time on the 1876 Winchester forum here on CAS City about the quality control problems apparently experienced by many who bought one ... none of which seemed to affect my particular rifle, fortunately.  (That may have been because my particular rifle was  one of the very first batch of the NWMP-pattern carbine produced by Chaparral, way back when the "sole importer/distributor" was supposed to be Scott Meyer of Western Nevada Firearms (apparently because he gave them the idea and supplied the specs and such they needed to get it into production ... but after the first batch or two, they apparently began letting others import and sell them ...) Anyway, I bought mine from him, back in 2007, and it is one of the very early ones they serial numbered to coincide with the known Winchester serial numbers of original NWMP carbines, all of which are listed in the "bible" ... Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973.  The serial number on my Chaparral is the sixth on the list of original Winchester serial numbers! 

Getting back to the "issues" many experienced with their Chaparral rifles, as discussed on the thread i mentioned above ... one chap detailed a number of problems he experienced, having to return it for correction of some issue or another at least three or four times ... so someone on the thread asked why he didn't just demand his money back and buy a Uberti-made rifle.  His response was classic ... he stated that the Chaparral barrels were known to be extremely well-rifled, resulting in superb accuracy, so he was prepared to go through all of the grief he was experiencing to retain that accuracy. 

As for the accuracy of my own rile, follow this link to a thread of mine on that same 1876 Winchester forum in 2010, entitled "Chaparral NWMP carbine wins Long Range match!"https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33868.msg438927.html#msg438927
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2020, 09:01:03 am »
"1876"

I'm gonna blame it on my fingers being taped up....not my brain being fuzzy.

Thanks for the info and the link.  I had read about issues with the Chaparral guns so I was leery about them.  Is there any way to tell a first gen gun?  I would suppose that the name of the importer on the rifle?

BTW what leather gear/accouterments are you planning on using with this?  NWMP pattern stuff or just what you already have in hand?
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2020, 08:39:26 pm »
Smoke:

I honestly can't say how easy or difficult it would be to locate a Chaparral-made NWMP carbine nowadays .... they are no longer in production, and i have been "out of the market", so to speak, for well over a decade ...

My carbine is not specially marked to indicate the importer/distributor ... just "Chaparral Repeating Arms" ...

As for leather and other accoutrements for this impression, I am still in th planning stages,with a few options ...

The only "carbine specific" item I'll need is a cartridge belt or bandolier for the .45-75 rifle cartridges.  Two original NWMP leather bandoliers used with the Winchester .45-75 cartridge are illustrated in Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police -



One option would be for me to make a version of the upper bandolier from scratch ... but that would necessitate a lot of sewing for the cartidge loops!  The lower version appears to be a modified form of the British Pattern 1882 bandolier (for 50 Martini-Henry cartridges) - note the caption even mentions that flaps originally covering the cartridge loops have been removed.  I happen to already have no less than three reproduction P'82 bandoliers amongst my existing kit (bought two, won a third as a shoot prize) so I am seriously contemplating adapting one of them to closely match the second original configuration shown above ...



I would remove all of the flaps (which are just stitched to the back of the main bandolier body) and also remove the brass studs for the flap straps (which are held in place with machine screws from the rear.)  Then I would remove five of the rifle loops from each end (thereby reducing the capacity to forty rifle cartridges like the originals) and would then merely need to sew on six pistol cartidge loops at each end.  (Other than the last step, the modifications will be easily reversible.)

Another rather intriguing possibility I have also been mulling over would be to try to locate a suitable reproduction of the Anson Mills cartridge belts, well documented as having seen fairly extensive use by the NWMP -





I am still trying to ascertain whether these would have been the dark blue webbing or brown/tan ... I am currently leaning toward the view that they don't appear dark enough in these photos to be the dark blue version ...  One advantage of using a Mills belt, I suppose, would be that it would serve as the means of carrying both rifle and pistol cartridges  ... as can be made out on the chap standing by his horse ... rendering a separte rifle ammunition bandolier unnecessary.  However, I am as yet unsure whether the configurations of this belt available in reproduction form will be suitable to adapt, since one can see in the photo of the Constable standing by his horse that there are some pistol cartridge loops to the right of the buckle, and also that the rifle cartridge loops appear to be set below center, with the cartridges apparently protruding above the loops enough that the rims are roughly level with the top edge of the belt. I am a "large lad", so would be wearing the Mills belt extended out to near maximum, thus exposing quite a bit of belt without cartridge loops on either side of the buckle .... which should  hopefully give enough room to add some pistol cartridge loops.  However, since the available Mills reproductions are set up for .45-70 Govt. cartridges, the whole idea won't work unless the bottlenecked .45-75 cartridges can be pushed far enough into the loops.  Does anyone on the forum have a .45-70 Mills belt plus access to a .45-75 cartridge to try in it?
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2020, 04:17:39 pm »
RSJ....excellent post as always.

The leather bandoleer sure looks like they took a 1882 and modded it to work for them.  I think it would be an easy mod.  Remove all the excess, cut down the end loops and re-install.  It appears from the photos that they even installed the new cut down loops in the same spot as the old loops.  The thread holes appear to line up.  They would have had to line the loops for .45 cal pistol cartridges of course.

The Mills belt is interesting.  It has some similarities to a couple different models.  I don't recall seeing something exactly like that though.  One of the issues is that Mills would make small runs of belts what ever way the customer wanted them made.

As you know, WPG makes a bunch of these. There are a few other makers of repros also but i don't know if they are like that.

I do not have a .45-75 to compare fit with a .45-70 in a Mills belt.  Sorry I cannot help you there.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2020, 06:20:49 pm »
As for my other leather equipment. including waist belt and holster, I also have some existing gear which it may be possible to modify to NWMP specifications, failing which I will make it.

The holster used by the Force through to about 1905 was a good size, with a particularly large flap secured by a stud mounted on the holster body which engaged through a hole in the flap - left. above. Unfortunately, but understandably, the British flap holsters currently available as reproductions from various sources all seem to follow the British War Department approved pattern, having a somewhat smaller/shallower flap secured by a strap attached to the holster body, which reached across the lower part of the flap to engage a stud mounted on the flap. 



I already have a number of reproduction British military holsters, and will be seeing if one of them can be adapted to the NWMP configuration ... if not, I will make one.

NWMP waistbelts of that era were also rather different from the reproduction British belts which are fairly readily available.  The earliest version used a "snake buckle" ...



The Canadian 1899 Oliver Pattern Equipment belt (with a reproduction available from What Price Glory) is actually quite close in appearance -



- and I may try to adapt the one I have for this impression ... although that would require addition of some pistol cartridge loops - a permanent modification I'd rather avoid, although I have been thinking of trying a separate slide-on (or clip-on) set of loops ...

Alternatively, I may make my own belt - either the above snake buckle pattern, or one of the simpler and more conventionally buckled belts seen in one various period photographs ... and surviving as artifacts ... with a few different buckle configurations, although apparently with similar arrangementsm of pistol cartridge loops -

- 1 -


- 2 -


- 3 -


A few other accoutrements I will need:

Revolver lanyards were apparently first issued to NWMP Other Ranks in 1886, made of "cod line ... stained with coffee". If I decide to use a lanyard, it will likely be one of my existing tan/khaki ones, although possibly dyed a bit "browner".  The white lanyard used presently is relatively "modern", not appearing until about 1905.

Another indispensible item of kit with 19th century "British" uniforms - which have few, if any, pockets - will be the white haversack used until about 1900.  No problem here, since they used the standard British patterns also used by the Canadian Militia, and I of course have reproductions.   

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2020, 06:33:02 pm »
Smoke:

I like your idea of just shortening six of the existing cartridge loops at each end on the modified P'82 bandolier and, indeed, it does look like that is exactly what may have been done in the case of the original.  Although, as you say, the shortened loops would need inserts/liners to hold the revolver cartridges, that would likely be a lot easier than the hassle of removing the existing loops and sewing on new loops, while avoiding the need to try to match the leather colour.

The existing loops are even a little generous for .45-75 cartridges, but only to the extent that the rounds are pleasantly loose in the loops (which will make them easy to withdraw) ... they definitely won't fall through.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2020, 08:05:45 am »
Never mind....that flap is not long enough.  I do think I have seen a holster repro that has a big enough flap. 

Great pictures.  WPG now makes an Oliver pattern haversack.  I'm not sure it makes much difference.
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2020, 11:02:07 am »
I will happily leave the regulation of appropriate Canadian Units in your hands, Jack!


"Moose Mountain Scouts"    For some reason that one really makes me smile.  I'm probably over influenced by Bullwinkle cartoons . . .
Yeah me too. If I were to do a Mountie impression it would be based on Dudley Do-Right  ;D
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Grand Army of the Frontier
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Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2020, 05:33:11 pm »
General, Sir, would that fall under the Hollywood uniform contest ;D
QuickFire                                 Lt. Colonel, Division of Nebraska                                                                                                                                                                          GRAND ARMY of the FRONTIER                                                         
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2020, 08:20:49 am »
 ;D I guess so
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
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Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2020, 08:20:49 am »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2020, 11:59:05 am »
Have you seen the WPG tunic?  Cheaper buy in but it requires some tailoring and a dye job.
http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/4066-UK-Khaki-Drill-Other-Ranks-Service-Dress-Tunic-Scottish-Pattern/

Smoke:

Yes, I am aware of that option ... but that would require a significant amount of alteration, and I'm not sure that they even offer my size.

In fact, I have dealt for years with one of WPG's suppliers to get most of my uniform items mede to measure (having actually been referred directly to them by Jerry Lee when I wanted to get my red wool Highland Doublet, after WPG had quit offering it.)  I am just in the process of finalizing an order to that supplier for this stable jacket, which will be made to my specific measurements in the fabric I want for less than half the price I mentioned earlier, including international express delivery to my door. 

I am awaiting a response from my button supplier on the exact sizes of the buttons I have ordered (their site only listing them as "large" and "small") so that I can pass that information on to assist in sizing the button-holes on the stable jacket.  The dress tunic already has the button-holes on it, of course, so whatever size my new buttons are, they will have to do!  (Actually, if slightly too big or small, the button holes can either be opened or closed up a bit ...)

Perhaps I should mention, for the benefit of anyone following this thread who may wish to do something in a NWMP uniform, that I had to order a total of 50 buttons (I have specified 38 large and 12 small) that I will have some extra buttons available after putting them on both the tunic and the stable jacket ...

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2020, 02:48:44 pm »
Inspired by this project, I finally got around to removing an engraving, which I have had for years, from its frame so I could get a decent scan of it.  The engraving is from "Picturesque Canada: The Country As It Was And Is", a two-volume, 880-page set published in Toronto in 1882 and was hand coloured before framing.  Seems it has been in the frame for a rather long time, because as can be seen in this reduced-scale image of the initial scan, the darkened rectangular area around this (starting just below the top caption, which reads: "The North-West: Winnipeg to the Rocky Mountains") clearly shows the outline of the matting.



Here is a larger-scale version, cropped and colour-corrected a bit ... you will need to click on it to see it at a decent size -
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2020, 08:11:45 pm »
I have been working on reconfiguring one of my existing British-pattern flap holsters to more closely resemble the NWMP holster.  It is a holster I made, and was finished very dark brown, so I have been busy stripping the finish, and removing the holster-mounted strap and flap-mounted stud, plus re-shaping the top of the holster opening slightly to permit the flap to come down further than before.   I have now given it a good scrubbing with saddle soap, and have it drying on my workbench (with a plastic-covered revolver inside for shaping ) -



The holster is still very damp in thos photo, so will dry to a lot lighter shade which, when finished with "leather balm", should end up a proper slightly russet medium brown.  Back when I made this holster I didn't bother with an end-plug, but I am going to have to cut the tip back by about an inch and a half to more correct proportions, and will add a plug while I am re-stitching the end of the seam ... so I have a round furniture-leg "shaper" in place while it is drying.

Looking at period photos, I can see that the hole in the flap, left by removal of the previous stud, is a bit too far from the edge of the flap to be entirely correct, but I need to add another hole closer to the edge, to allow two flap positions on the stud which will be installed on the hoster body, because this holster will be used with several different revolvers ... all of which have  been "tried" in it already ... and a somewhat "adjustable" flap position will actually be an asset.



Off to the side of the first picture can be seen the reporoduction Pattern 1882 bandolier I am also re-working - with flaps already removed and a start on removing its existing finish ... also too dark, and with an overly "glazed" surface.  Indeed, one reason I haven't really made use of this particular bandolier is that it was too dark and "shiny" ... whereas, when redone, it should have a much more "correct" medium brown oil-finished look.  An added bonus of the stripping/refinishing process is that the glaring white stitching will be stained to a much better match with the refinished leather ...
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2020, 05:00:49 pm »
Looks like you are making good progress!! 

Are you going to cut down and line the loops for pistol cartridges?

Did you order the utility/field blouse?

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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2020, 07:21:07 pm »
Did you order the utility/field blouse?

Not yet ... have to get my current measurments taken, so I can send those along.

I had another little "online victory" the other day, relating to the broad yellow stripes I need to apply to an existing pair of dark blue serge trousers I am planning to use.  (They are former Royal Military College of Canada dress trousers  - effectively Victorian-era Inantry trousers with red piping at the outer leg seams.)  I had been planning to use wide cotton twill tape, which I would have to stain deep yellow ... although I knew that the colour would undoubtdly start fading right away. 

However, whle I was doing various "mounted police" related searches online, what should pop up but this listing on a UK-based military outfitter's website ...



The width (45 mm ... i.e. 1? ") is of course the exact size required.

Needless to say, three metres of it were ordered immediately, and the order has been shipped!


Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2020, 07:29:47 pm »
Forgot to answer your other question ... yes, that is how I intend to deal with the pistol cartridge loops.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2020, 07:47:14 pm »
GAF#379

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2020, 11:07:37 pm »
In the definite hope that this dad-blamed "global pandemic" does not throw a wrench into the works, I have been continuing with my uniform and kit preparations for the National Muster ...

- my reproduction "stable jacket" is in production ...



- a batch of reproduction NWMP buttons (for use on both the dress tunic and stable jacket) have been produced and are currently en route to me ...



- a custom-made web Mills belt for both .455 revolver cartridges and .45-75 rifle cartridges that I ordered from Wolfears Equipment (Stan Dolega) has been completed I understand, although he was awaiting arrival of a buckle delivery since he does not normally carry the plain "H" buckle needed ...



- the yellow worsted twill leg stripe material has arrived from the UK (although I have not yet decided if I will try to apply it myself - a hand-stitching job for me - or instead take it to the locl tailor shop I use when too lazy - or non-confident - to do things myself.)

- I have also received the period-correct "large" Sergeant's chevrons I need, with the crowns also needed to go above them en route from a different source ...



- I have even gone so far as to order a reproduction British Pattern 1853 Light Cavalry sabre (as seen in the above photo) which was standard issue for NWMP Sergeants ... although i am having a bit of difficulty getting a clear answer on when it can be supplied, so I may end up having to cancel that little extravagance ...)



- meanwhile, in the "home-front leather working department", I have completed modification of an existing flap-covered holster i made years ago to as close as I could get it to NWMP pattern (... making it a fit for my original NWMP-issue .476/.455 Enfield revolver while I was at it ...) and have also completed modifications to one of my reproduction  Pattern 1882 leather bandoliers to duplicate as closely as possible the original bandolier which was obviously just such a modification pictured in "Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police" -





Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2020, 11:52:26 pm »
Despite the reality that the ongoing pandemic situation might cancel or postpone the Grand Muster - or might at any rate prevent my attendance - I continue with my preparations, nonetheless.

Day before yesterday I received the Mills Belt custom-made for me my by Stan Dolega (Wolf Ears Equipment, Laramie, WY) ...



My references indicate that the prototype US Navy belts (with loops for .50-70 rifle cartridges) purchased by the NWMP were "olive green"  - whatever that may have signified in the 1880s and something Stan was understandably unwilling to try to replicate - and were acquired with differing numbers of loops for the .45-75 rifle cartridges ... some with 30 such loops and some with 35 (... I suspect that the difference had to do with the number of such loops which would fit on different belt lengths.)  Although photographs clearly show revolver cartridge loops at the other end of the belt (i.e. to the right of the buckle when worn) there was no mention of the number of such loops.  After some consideration, I decided to have this belt (... nice and long, to fit my excessive girth ...) made with 30 of each size of loop, as seen above.



Today, I "bit the bullet" and dyed the web portion of the belt, using a "this-oughta-be-close" mixture of brown and dark green fabric dye I had laying around.  I am pleased to say that I think it turned out quite well  ... especially since, so far as I can ascertain, not a single example of the original belts has survived, so who can say the colour is wrong!?  Still damp from the dying, here:



Hanging over the laundry tub to dry ... with the rather "rustic" basement wall of my 107-year-old house as a backdrop ...

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2020, 06:56:30 am »
That is really cool.  I love your attention to detail and commitment to accuracy. 

USMC had "pea green" colored web gear starting with the 1907/1910/1912 gear.  US Army had and "olive green" color also.   That seems to be a color choice around that time. 

I think your choice of color fits right in that range.
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