Author Topic: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster  (Read 2299 times)

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2020, 01:26:54 pm »
Tell me more about the Smith & Wesson, .38 S&W caliber arms issued to the NWMP.

Books:

I mentioned the S&W .38s, and posted the images of them, because I was struck by how closely they rsemble the Spanish-made clones I have ....

Checking back in "the bible" (Arms and Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873-1973) I see that between 1888 and 1904 the NWMP acquired at least 160 .38 S&W revolvers (based on the specific batches  of 25 or more at a time mentioned in the text ... although there seems to be some suggestion that additional acquisitions of smaller quantities amy also have been made.) 

They were 3rd Model Double Action and 2nd, 3rd and 4th Model Safety revolvers.  I confess to having been under the impression (admittedly from a Wikipedia article) that the various large-caliber (e.g. .44) top-break S&W revolvers, whether single or double action, are variants of the No. 3 revolver ... and further that these smaller caliber revolvers are essentially similar in design and function, although characterized as different models. Since you are undoubtedly much more knowledgeable on the subject of S&W revolvers of the period, can you comment on that? 

At any rate, my primary concern was whether my Spanish clones would be considered sufficiently similar in appearance, design and function to be acceptable for GAF shooting as "substitutes" for the specific revolvers used by the NWMP ... and Drydock has answered that in the affirmative ...

One interesting side note:  the holster design issued by the NWMP for these .38 S&W revolvers was obviously based on the holster pattern used with the larger standard-issue Enfield revolver.  These images are both from "Arms & Accoutrements" (... although they are from different sources with no indication one way or the other of their respective scale ...) -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2020, 01:47:02 pm »
Faux 73/76 Winchester?

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Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2020, 02:07:20 pm »
RSJ....this is pretty cool I have to say.  I was actually thinking about getting some like together since I have many Canadian ancestors.   

My wife and daughter are big fans of the TV show "When calls the Heart" where a Mountie plays a prominent role.  The get irritated with me when I point out the holes in the plot on guns, gear and cloths. ::)

Please tell me more about how this faux 73/76 came about.  I have the perfect rifle for that.
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2020, 02:33:15 pm »
Jack;

Based on your post, I have my local library tracking down a copy of Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873-1973.

The DA .38 (No. 2 size) 3rd model was manufactured 1884-1895, with 203,700 produced.  (They are very common down here and in excellent condition will go for about $ 300.)

The 2nd Safety Hammerless, 1887-1890, with 37,350 produced.
      3rd Safety Hammerless, 1890-1898, with 73,500 produced.
      4th Safety Hammerless, 1898-1907, with 104,000 produced.

Is there any mention of finish (blue or nickel) or barrel length (3 1/4" most common, 4 & 5 inch somewhat scarce and 6 in scarce to rare.)?
The holsters that you pictured are black.  Mine are brown but very close in shape.

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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2020, 04:49:26 pm »
1894s were also used as armed guard weapons in the pacific northwest by various NG units during ww1. However, like the French 1894s, AND the Royal Navy 1894s, (Used aboard minesweepers, Q-ships and other irregular craft) never officially adopted, thus they remain Militia class (Civilian Long Action) rifles.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2020, 06:54:01 pm »
Books:

Apparently all of the .38 S&W revolvers acquired by the NWMP had 3.25" barrels and, except for at least 25 blued 4th Model Safety revolvers (... a specific purchase of that number is mentioned, not sure if there were any more) were nickle plated. 

The holsters posted above look black but only because the images are greyscale photos (i.e. B&W ... indeed, there are no colour images in "Arms & Accoutrements".)

In fact, NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP holsters and other related leather equipment have always been brown (or "russet" ... although although their early riding boots were black ... check out the colour plates in my original post.)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2020, 06:57:54 pm »
Rattlesnake Jack
Looks like you cross the medicine line not far from where I was born in Havre, MT, there because Chinook where we lived at the time did not have a hospital.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2020, 07:19:48 pm »
Please tell me more about how this faux 73/76 came about.

Smoke:

This is something I had a gunsmith friend make up for me quite some time ago (probalby at least 20 years) when I was quite active in cowboy action shooting.  I didn't think I'd ever likely get a "full-size" 1876 and, in any event a rifle chambered in a "rifle" cartridge (all of the NWMP carbines and Canadian Militia Department carbines  and rifles were .45-75) would not be usable in "cowboy action "main matches" 

However, my friend had a complete original Model 1876 action available and confirmed he could use it to build a reduced-size "faux" NWMP carbine for me, which I requested be chambered for .45 Colt (like all of my other CAS rifles and revolvers.)  The action was from a .44-40 rifle, but of course that cartridge is close enough in length and rim diameter to the.45 Colt cartridge that this was no problem.

He made the buttstock and forestock and most of the furniture (certainly the buttplate and nosecap) ... the sights are actually off a Martini-Henry rifle ...  Can't recall if he used an existing barrel or made it from a blank, but he chambered and rifled it ... it is quite accurate.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2020, 08:00:41 pm »
RSJ...that is a really cool little rifle and project.  If you get a chance to post more pics of it, that would be great.

For the patrol jacket, is there something off the shelf you will use or do you need to get it made?

It looks like the cartridge belt is nothing more than a typical western belt but with cartridge loops closed on the bottoms?

Joe Salter has the Arms and Accouterments book....he's gonna get more of my money.

Is there decent uniform book on the NWMP?
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2020, 01:20:27 am »
Smoke:

Actually, there is a olace that I can get a stable jacket very much like the one issued by the NWMP, made to my measurements, for about US$160  it is a business which sells reasonably-priced clothing and other kit for Highland pipe bands, and one item they offer is a cotton drill Scottish styled "cutaway" jacket they refer to as a "Patrol Tunic", whch can be ordered with modifications. Here is an image from their website together with a copy of that same image with some rather crude "photoshopping" done to give an idea of the version I would order ... 



... did a bit of "airbrushing" to eliminate all pockets, modified the colour, and also lowered the standing collar.

Although my image editing skills weren't up to the challenge, I can also have it made with a less pronounced "cutaway" at the bottom of the front closure, so it has the more rounded corners seen in the period photos in my original post.  Mind you, that wouldn't be strictly necessary, because other period photos I have collected show  a version of the stable jacket with a "cutaway" front ... presumably attributable to different makers  ...



As for uniform references, the "bible" would undoubtedly be the 542=page tome "Uniforms of the Canadian Mounted Police" by James J. Boulton, published in 1990 ... but it is one of those out-of-print treasures which seem to command ridiculouly high prices - currently US$300 and up!

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30457683244

A much more affordable reference (albeit very much limited in scope by comparison) is Osprey Men-at-Arms Series #197, "The Royal Canadian Mounted Police 1873-1987".

I can't seem to locate any additional images of my faux NWMP carbine right now,  unfortunately.   
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2020, 01:20:27 am »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2020, 01:30:02 am »
Rattlesnake Jack
Looks like you cross the medicine line not far from where I was born in Havre, MT ...

Yes indeed ... the most direct route actually takes me to Havre, then east on US2 for a ways (right through Chinook) before dropping south ...
 ;D
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2020, 07:05:21 am »
$300... :o.  I'll pass.  I have enough over priced reference books as it is.  I think the cheap Osprey will work.

Have you seen the WPG tunic?  Cheaper buy in but it requires some tailoring and a dye job.

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/4066-UK-Khaki-Drill-Other-Ranks-Service-Dress-Tunic-Scottish-Pattern/

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Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2020, 07:55:03 am »
Drydock, I too would be in favor of adding the 1876 Winchester in the correct configuration to the military class.
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Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2020, 04:22:13 pm »
I have a question what class would this 76 be in? Black powder or smokeless military.
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Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2020, 04:38:44 pm »
I am assuming it would be black powder class. So trapdoors and Sharp's will be competing against this gun correct?
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2020, 05:29:52 pm »
Depends. As a pre 1886,  If he loads with BP, its a BP gun, if smokeless, then he competes against smokeless rifles.  Same as a Spencer, or my Vetterli last year.
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Offline Whiskey Double

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2020, 06:01:43 pm »
Still learning , had to ask. Just when I thought I knew ......
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Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2020, 06:16:31 pm »
As an aside, from what I've observed, rifle caliber lever actions don't really give an advantage in speed.  They are very quick until you have to reload, and since you almost have to load from the magazine, that tends to slow you down quite a bit.  Of course, a '95 Winchester not set up for stripper clips is probably the slowest of all to reload.  It really all comes down to the skill of the shooter (as it usually does).
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2020, 06:44:21 pm »
Drydock,  is the raising of this question here in this thread (as you worded it above) sufficient to get the matter considered by the Brigade Staff, or will it need to be more formally presented?  (Despite having "fallen into" this tunic, as it were, it will take quite a lot of time and effort to accumulate everything else I'll need ... including the stable jacket for the field uniform, so I do need to get this determined as soon as practicable.)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Niederlander

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2020, 07:55:31 pm »
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
That works for me.  I think Jack has made an excellent case for it.
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