Short stroked rifles and NCOWS

[Lone Gunman]

I don't have the words...luckily I have a picture...

[Irish Dave]

TJR, let me try again:

Maybe it would help us to understand your questions if we had some idea what motivated them.

1) Are you wanting to know if your SS rifle is NCOWS legal?
2) Are you concerned that you'll be shooting a stock rifle and that someone else competing with you will "get away with" using a SS model?
3) Are you interested in whether the SS prohibition extends only to Winchesters (& clones) or to Marlins as well?

 I don't believe there's very much that's vague about these rules. Either a pard wants to follow them or he/she is looking for some loophole for circumventing them.  I think we've all tried to explain to the best of our ability that SS rifles are NOT acceptible ...period. But apparently we're missing your point. You seem to be an intelligent fellow and I can't help but believe that you understand that 'No" means 'No." So unless this is just an exercise, maybe we can be more effective with a wee bit more info on your part.

What say?

[Texas John Ringo]

I don’t have a problem with the rule just how it is monitored and the enforcement.
If I play this game, NCOWS, it will be 100% legal. I am having a problem with the concept, with SS definition, and how it can be enforced.
Honesty is well and good, but there are different lengths of stroke from rifle to rifle, sometimes 1/4" or more and these are all stock guns. Marlins are not even mentioned and they can be short stroked also. And by the way I don’t have a short stroked Marlin.
I can very easily convert the early Cody gun back to stock, just change the lever and take out a set screw, so there is no problem there.
I am “just” trying to get this all clear on how NCOWS enforces a, whether you call it that or not, measurement or rule.
There are some other questions I had on ammo but I can see right now that will have to be much later.

Y’all have a good day.
I’m gone too.

[Advertising]

[Black River Smith]

Boy, there were some interesting and lively discussions back in 2005.

They say history repeats itself.

You all have fun.

[Montana Slim]

Well, It has been a few years since we last tarred 'n feathered anyone at a NCOWS gathering 

Any takers on showing up to the Nats with a SS Rifle/Carbine ?

Could we offer a bounty to the one who spots them ?

Kinda like theose ol' games: "Where's Waldo" or "spot the Air-Marshal" - I'm good at that  one.

Slim
Undercover "Pink". I work "cheep" 

[Fox Creek Kid]

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

What's all the fuss about short strokes?  Are they ones we are supposed to be "down to!"?

My observations of shooters of all skill levels is that most can get a rifle working reasonably well.  Where the sheep are separated from the goats is about evenly divided between pistol and shotgun.  Personally., I've never felt handicapped when levering a stock levergun.  It can be levered much faster than most folks take to get a flash sight picture after getting on to the next target.

Finally; I'd much rather have a reputation as an honest and reliable hand than merely being fast.

[Cuts Crooked]

Most, but maybe not all?
Vague?
Give it a value, not maybe you know.

TJR,

I'd say most, if not all, know exactly what yer after here, a definition involving measurements of some kind. The bad news is, You aren't going to get one. But the good news is...you aren't going to get one.

It's about honor pard. A man with honor will abide by the rule"No short strokes". He KNOWS if his gun has been SSed or not, and he will not compete with it in NCOWS if he has honor. A man with no honor may choose to try to get by with it, because after all, "there is no measurement". But eventuallly it will come to light, and we cannot even say his honor was fouled by the act....because he had none to foul!

Funny thing about honor, those who have it tend to attribute it to others too. They don't worry a lot about it, nor do they worry about the other guy. Sometimes someone is not honorable, when that happens not much will be said. But they will probably find themselves less than welcome in the future. Someday, someone may force the issue. When that happens it will be addressed, the honorable man would rather it never has to be, so he behaves accordingly. An honorable man who finds himself beaten in a match, by a less than honorable man, knows who REALLY won.

NCOWS seems to have a high percentage of honorable members.

I truely hope this answers your question, because y' ain't gonna git a measurement.

[Grizzle Bear]

Finally; I'd much rather have a reputation as an honest and reliable hand than merely being fast.

Bears repeating!

Grizzle Bear

[Dutch Limbach]

Well said Cuts! Well said indeed!

[Cole Bluesteele]

Pards, 

That maybe the ONE thing that I like best about NCOWS.  Integity! versus win at any cost. 

At the SASS TG meeting, San Quenton said, "We are now making rules to deal with the 2% who don't follow the rules.  If Match Directors would just enforce the rules we have we wouldn't need to do this."   Hipshot told us of one shooter whose category required spurs, but the shooter wore them on his elbows so as to not slow him down.  So we have to pass a rule to require clothing to be worn in the appropriate manner!  Check out the SASS WIRE and read the comments about such foolishness.  I understand SASS has 30,000+ members, but it appears to me that SASS attracts more of the 2%'ers than does NCOWS.

NCOWS on the other hand has set the bar at a different height.  Setting and enforcing this lofty standard is probably why there are the erroroneous rumors about NCOWS.  But I would not change those standards one little bit!  Who wants to be arround a clown wearing spurs on his elbows and carrying loaded guns!

Cole Bluesteele 

[Sod Buster]

At the SASS TG meeting, ...Hipshot told us of one shooter whose category required spurs, but the shooter wore them on his elbows so as to not slow him down. 

Somewhere along the trail, the Spirit of the Game has been lost.  This behavior should not be tolerated by anyone - Match Director, or fellow shooters.

Sheesh!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

You said it Sod Buster!

When I started in frontier action shooting about 15 years ago one rule in our handbook was in BOLD CAPITALS;

ALWAYS OBSERVE THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME!

[Charlie Bowdre]

I 've been sitting in the weeds and reading this topic the past few days.
It is too bad that in some cases the fun of the shoot has been  replaced by the desire to 'win at all costs'

 It makes a bottom end shooter like myself shy away from some of the bigger shoots.

I am sure the majority of shooters  get together to enjoy the sport and the company. But when you hear of crap like this it takes a lot of the good out of the game .

I shoot my guns pretty much as they came  , not for any other reason then that's my approach . I have fun , enjoy the game and for the most part compete against myself.

I enjoy watching the top guns , they provide a fast , well handled component to the match and they also enjoy the game .

 Not my thing  ,but the important point is that both styles seem to complement or co exist to the betterment of the match .
At the end of the day we all swap lies , eat too much and enjoy a cool one.

That to me anyway, is what it is all about.

This is a great game , a great site and an even greater bunch of guys and gals.
My opinion anyway . And that's only worth two cents..(.Canadian.) Which south of the Medicine Line is worth No Cents


Dutchy

[River City John]

Dutchy, that sounds reasonable to me.

Incidentally, NCOWS is blessed with some stellar Canadian members.


Every once in a while we can actually coax them south of that Medicine Line to come join in the fun.

[Charlie Bowdre]

sounds like a good plan . Hope to do just that  someday.
Take care
Dutchy

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Dutchy
Sure would love to have you at the National Shoot in June . We are about Spirit of the Game and we just want to hae FUN .
We don't shoot short stroked weapons and we do have a minimum velocity . But most important we have fun .

[Charlie Bowdre]

Thank you for the invite . Might not be this time around ...but.. I'll be thinking of you.
One more year and the Trail Boss will be retired and then the wagon is going on the road!!
Enjoy.

Dutchy

[bear tooth billy]

I have 3 toggle link lever actions, a henry, an original 73, and a 66 that I put a short stroke
kit in. I would not consider shooting the 66 at an NCOWS match, (unless I swithed it back).
I shot at one Nat. a few years ago and the original guns there were so cool to me, it made me
go out and buy the original 73. To shoot a match with that gun loaded  with black just
REEEKS of history  especially with this group and our clothes and the historical knowledge of
our members. Personally I get much more out of that than the speed and serious competition.
Maybe thats what keeps our group special

[River City John]

To shoot a match with that gun loaded with black just REEEKS of history especially with this group and our clothes and the historical knowledge of our members. Personally I get much more out of that than the speed and serious competition.
Maybe thats what keeps our group special

bear tooth billy,
you've hit upon an important point.

As I've said elsewhere, I have to admit to deja vu, as the short-stroke topic and the reaction to it keep coming back to haunt us. It will always be so, as long as we have seekers coming to us from SASS or other shooting venues who have been indoctrinated by the arms race.

We must be patient when we explain they can't use the toys they're used to, and to trust that in exchange for leaving their gadgets and modifications behind the reward is something a little purer, more spiritual to the history that inspires us all alike.

NCOWS is enjoying a renaissance right now. We have more and more people joining daily.
The majority of those who have settled in to this hobby are baby-boomers who grew up on Westerns, and now have the years behind them and the stability where they can devote the time and money towards reliving our youthful fascination. Naturally, as a group we're slowing down. The focus changes and soon the competitive shooting portion loses some of its luster. But there is still that intense longing to connect with the Old West and many find NCOWS a perfect fit. There is still shooting, and all the camaraderie associated with that, but there is something more . . an atmosphere that now values connecting to the history over the competition. This 'feeding of the soul' endures long after the guns and the reloading equipment have been put away, and gives a stronger sense of purpose to this hobby.             

Texas John Ringo, you made one offhand remark that tugged a little at me. "I am not an actor."
It is odd in that, one of the perceptions we try to dispel about NCOWS is that you are expected to be a re-enactor. There are no rules stating such. We do have very basic guidelines for participation. Make NCOWS a personal journey of exploration while enjoying shooting with us.     



RCJ