Short stroked rifles and NCOWS

[Texas John Ringo]

Question: How does NCOWS determine if a toggle link rifle is short stroked?
Is there a measurement, if so what is it and how is it done?
How about a short stroked Marlin? Same questions.

[River City John]

Trap, our National Judge, will likely chime in here too.

At one time we toyed with the idea of setting an minimum angle of lever operation. Lone Gunman even had a nifty illustration. Quite frankly, that angle was such that there would have been NO advantage in having a short-stroked kit installed.

But the more we discussed it, the more it became clear that going down that road implied that short-strokes could get by as long as they met or exceeded an 'official' measurement.
Short-strokes and similar mods are disallowed, period.

So I guess the proper answer, as to how we measure whether a firearm is short-stroked, is to look you in the eye when we say we trust you to be honest and play by the rules.

RCJ

[Cole Bluesteele]

It's pretty easy to tell if a toggle links been short stroked.  If the block on the lifter arm protrudes below the frame then the rifle has been short stroked.  This is where the lever contacts the lifter and it is visible when looking at the bottom of the rifle with the action closed.  All the short stroke mods I have seen build this area up in order for the lever to contact the lifter sooner and get the round up to the chamber with less throw of the lever.

Cole

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[Trap]

  RCJ is giving you the straight dope. A toggle link rifle will have, when the lever is full open, a little over 90 degrees with the barrel, so that is pretty obvious. My wife shoots a marlin but I have never really got a measurement of angle. Will try to remember to look tonight. We believe what you tell us unless someones weapon is challenged. At that point it would be compared to a known "non-shortstroked" rifle of the same model, internally if necessary.    jt

[Texas John Ringo]

It's pretty easy to tell if a toggle links been short stroked.  If the block on the lifter arm protrudes below the frame then the rifle has been short stroked.  This is where the lever contacts the lifter and it is visible when looking at the bottom of the rifle with the action closed.  All the short stroke mods I have seen build this area up in order for the lever to contact the lifter sooner and get the round up to the chamber with less throw of the lever.

Cole

I know what a short stroke rifle is, I have 2 of them.
One is an early Cody rifle that does not have a protrusion on the lifter arm, so you can't tell by looking for that.
What I want to know what is the limit; there are variations between guns from the same manufacturer and between manufacture dates and calibers

[Fox Creek Kid]

Short stroked weapons are not allowed in NCOWS. Period.

[Texas John Ringo]

Short stroked weapons are not allowed in NCOWS. Period.

Define short stroke, that's the answer I am looking for.
What's so hard about that?

[Texas John Ringo]

NCOWS never set a measurement as a standard to judge if a rifle has a short stroke kit in it. The by-laws state short stroke kits are not allowed, so it falls back to integrity and honesty. Competition and speed is up to how the individual perceives his own satisfaction within the limits of the by-laws. By your own statement you have two rifles with short stroke kit. Since 'you' are they only one that knows that, it would boils down to your own personal integrity as to using them in an NCOWS match. 

That's not what it is all about, I have 3 other rifles that are not short stroked (no kits, no mod's) and the stroke on all off them is different
By the way there is no "kit" in the early Cody gun. Smoothed up and tightened, stroke same as an original 1873.
The other Cody rifle does not have "kit" either.
So what"is" a short stroke, come on this can't be that hard.

[River City John]

Define short stroke, that's the answer I am looking for.
What's so hard about that?

I suppose it would go something like this:

'Any after-market modification that changes the internal parts to alter the cam dimensions in order to shorten the forward travel of the lever to effect a complete cycle of the action.'

Other mods would also include aluminum carriers, 'lightening rods', etc.

(And currently 'after-market' would have to be qualified as there is now a '73 clone being manufactured by Beretta, the "Renegade", that has a factory installed short-stroke kit. This rifle would not qualify for NCOWS.)

An action job is not the same.
RCJ

[Trap]

  As has been stated, Action jobs, slicking up an action is OK. What is not is altering the configuration of parts, adding parts to change the stroke angle of the lever at its most open position.

[Texas John Ringo]

All I wanted out of this was an answer that described what was legal, if I ever play this game, since there is Texas club that is trying to have an NCOWS monthly match.
I know exactly what a short stroke rifle is, but there is some (a Lot) of confusion among a lot of people over what is considered "short".
As has probably been stated else where there are a lot different lengths of throw even among factory and most definitely with old original rifles.

[Irish Dave]

Texas John:

I guess the simpest answer is: As manufactured.
If it is an NCOWS legal rifle and the lever throw is "stock" then its legal. If it has been modified in any way to shorten the lever throw from stock distance, then it is not.

That would be true of all the rifles currently on the NCOWS Approved list.
The Congress will probably be addressing the new Beretta 73 copy rifle at its March meeting. My guess is that it will not be approved since it comes from the factory with a shortened lever throw.

[Cole Bluesteele]

Ringo,

We are not  trying to have a monthly NCOWS shoot we are having one, period.  As a matter of fact, we are having two in January.  See my other post on new additional dates.  NCOWS is here and its real.  

I guess the answer to your question is if you know it was altered from the factory configuration so as to reduce the lever stroke as it arrived from the factory, it been short stroked.  I'm thinking that it makes no difference if it reduced the stroke 1/8" or more.  By NCOWS rukes it would be illegal.

I have never seen a Cody short stroke mod that did not alter either the lever by cutting and rewelding and/or altering the lifter.  Some of the lifters from 8 years ago were drilled and tapped to accept a set screw to time the stroke.

Come on over to Greenville and we can compare notes and rifles.  Hope to see you there.

Cole

[Tjackstephens]

Texas John Ringo, Are you the same John Ringo that I have shot with at Trailhead and MS River Rangers Annual Matches? If so, you will really like NCOWS. All the Trailhead shoots I have been to in Texas could have been NCOWS shoots. Most NCOWS  shoot the targets will be back a little more and you will have to use your sights. Most all will be dressed to look like they stepped out of the old west.
John I can not help you on the short stroke rifle, never had one and never shot one. Seen some who do, some alful short. Most know if there rifle has had that kind of job done to it. NO matter what you have heard, we are not nit pickers. All can go to the Tally Book and see what is legal and what is not. I think if it looks like they did in the old west and functions so, no one will say a thing. Any way it would be good to have a pard like you in NCOWS. All I can say is WELCOME. TJ  Texas Jack Stephens

[Texas John Ringo]

Texas John Ringo, Are you the same John Ringo that I have shot with at Trailhead and MS River Rangers Annual Matches? If so, you will really like NCOWS. All the Trailhead shoots I have been to in Texas could have been NCOWS shoots. Most NCOWS  shoot the targets will be back a little more and you will have to use your sights. Most all will be dressed to look like they stepped out of the old west.
John I can not help you on the short stroke rifle, never had one and never shot one. Seen some who do, some alful short. Most know if there rifle has had that kind of job done to it. NO matter what you have heard, we are not nit pickers. All can go to the Tally Book and see what is legal and what is not. I think if it looks like they did in the old west and functions so, no one will say a thing. Any way it would be good to have a pard like you in NCOWS. All I can say is WELCOME. TJ  Texas Jack Stephens

That's me, good to hear from you.
We'll see about the NCOWS thing though, rules are pretty vague in some spots. I like to know what's going on up front.
As you know, I'm a shooter not an actor.
Hope to shoot with you again sometime.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...We'll see about the NCOWS thing though, rules are pretty vague in some spots. I like to know what's going on up front...

Taken directly from NCOWS rule book:

"Gun Modifications:

Not allowed are the following:  Short-stroke kits for toggle link rifles, short stroke kits for revolvers, Lightning rods or similar devises, aluminum carriers for toggle link rifles."

http://www.ncows.org/Bylaws.htm


With all due respect sir, that is not vague. 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

TJR......

Most of us have been around this game long enough to be able to tell if a rifle has been short stroked, and most people using them know they are shooting a short stroked rifle.

If one is spotted at an NCOWS match, Normal procedure is, it will be brought up to the match director and he/she will deal with it in the appropriate manner.

I don't think to my knowledge we've had any problems with them being used in NCOWS matches recently, meaning we don't allow them.

Bill

[Texas John Ringo]

Taken directly from NCOWS rule book:

"Gun Modifications:

Not allowed are the following:  Short-stroke kits for toggle link rifles, short stroke kits for revolvers, Lightning rods or similar devises, aluminum carriers for toggle link rifles."

http://www.ncows.org/Bylaws.htm


With all due respect sir, that is not vague. 

Ever seen a short stroke Marlin? I'm sure you know it's not a toggle link-----vague or what?

[Texas John Ringo]

TJR......

Most of us have been around this game long enough to be able to tell if a rifle has been short stroked, and most people using them know they are shooting a short stroked rifle.

If one is spotted at an NCOWS match, Normal procedure is, it will be brought up to the match director and he/she will deal with it in the appropriate manner.

I don't think to my knowledge we've had any problems with them being used in NCOWS matches recently, meaning we don't allow them.

Bill

Most, but maybe not all?
Vague?
Give it a value, not maybe you know.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I'm done.