PC late 1870's early 1880's shirts

[Books OToole]

All factory made shirts had hand stitched button holes until the later 1870's AND more importantly (and grossly neglected by almost all makers of repros) they had HORIZONTAL button holes. If the shirt has vertical button holes it's FARB. 

Beware of using the words; all, always and never.  In the field of historical research, they tend to come back and bite you in the A$$.

It is aslo worth noteing that, with very few exceptions, you can not negatively document something.  (You can only say what the had by pointing out original items;  not what they didn't have.)


Books

[Delmonico]

ThankYou Books, hands on research can prove interesting, a real historian has to make conclusions based on what they find, not someone eles opinion.

[Lone Gunman]

Here's a couple of puzzlers:

What was the motivating factor that led to shirt button holes changing from horizontal to vertical?  Easier to operate? Easier to manufacture?
(And just to make sure there's no misconception, I don't have a clue what the answer is.)

And even more puzzling:

Whatever that reason was, why did it only apply to shirts?  Even modern day coats and vests have horizontal button holes.   

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[Fox Creek Kid]

Books, there will always be an anomaly. The NORM is what I thought we were discussing here. I could say that all midgets in Mongolia have two legs & sure enough a one legged midget would file a grievance. The NORM however would be a two legged midget. Spare me the sophistry.

[Trinity]

Here's a couple of puzzlers:

What was the motivating factor that led to shirt button holes changing from horizontal to vertical?  Easier to operate? Easier to manufacture?
(And just to make sure there's no misconception, I don't have a clue what the answer is.)

And even more puzzling:

Whatever that reason was, why did it only apply to shirts?  Even modern day coats and vests have horizontal button holes.  

On the front placket, the horizontal button hole is slightly more difficult to unfasten.  That's why on some finer dress shirts the bottom button (or buttons) that will be tucked in the waist are horizontal.  This is a measure to keep them from becoming undone through the course of a day.  The same applies to button holes on the sleeves which are sewn in a perpendicular fashion as opposed to the standard parallel.  

There is no doubt a vast number of additional reasons which include style and regional fashions.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Horizontal buttonholes stay buttoned more securely. Any stress across the garment opening pulls the button into the the end of the buttonhole where the button stops. With vertical buttonholes, the stress is across the buttonhole, causing the the opening to widen. Then the button pulls against the long sides of the buttonhole and can easily pop out through this wider opening. I was told by the woman who made three shirts for me that once shirtmaking became more automated they were always looking for ways to streamline the manufacturing process. With horizontal button holes they were hand stitched by using an overlaying template. This took time which = money. Finally, it's far easier to machine sew vertical button holes as you don't have to rotate the garment. The aforementioned woman was a textile historian who specialized in Civil War era garments in Winchester, VA. In summary, it had to do with a faster production process. 

[James Hunt]

This is all good information.

I think that the question should be refined to ask - describe a common (something that would have MOST likely been worn on the frontier) workshirt (as opposed to dress shirt) of the early 1870's to early 1880's (a decade) that would have been worn relative to material, style, sewing technique. At the end this information could be pointed to as a resource for the new guy with the comment that this would be 99% safe for the time period indicated to invest your money he - it would be 100% correct. The second point would be: now where can you get it - and I understand that this may be limited to a custom maker or someone who can sew. Better to pay $75 for one absolutely right product that will bear judgement than $275 trying to figure out what is correct.

This "standard" for lack of better terms would be helpful to the new guy if not the rest of us. (clearly there is extreme variation - let us not get lost in variation). In other words if you were limited to ONE shirt, what direction would you go.

Let me give it a shot.

Material: wool or a wool flannel as a first choice. Dark solid color for that material would always be safe.
Style: slightly tapered - attached probably small rounded collar - small cuffs with one button placed closer to sleeve than end of cuff - length is becoming shorter than that seen before the CW - button holes horizontal (has that been determined as correct?) - less blousy than that seen before the CW - pullover style with placket and four or five buttons - the dropped shoulder design would have been less common by now (in fact were the shoulder holes cut higher than they are now?)
Sewing: machine sewn except for button holes.
buttons: (any comments on that?)

Again - we are attempting a single standard for the guy buying one absolutely correct, most common, will work 99% of the time workshirt. Something a new person can start with and ALWAYS be correct for early 1870's thru early 1880's. Do not get loss in variation, that comes with experience and persona development.

[Delmonico]

To post on an open forum only what is the most common item when an honest question is asked is a disservice to those who are starting out to learn.  Yest mention what is most common, but also meantion how stuff varies.  That way when the student learns more than you, they will still have respect for you even though now they may know more than you.

If someone asks "what is the most common" then that is the way to answer.  To get nasty in an answer to begain with and call folks "Farb" is only gonna make folks mad at ya, since this forum repersents NCOWS, that is such good PR.

Your perception may be different, the moderators who I consider friends may choose to move or delete this, but so be it.  If we don't want to answer questions from the general public in a polite manner then it would be best that the NCOWS forum only be for NCOWS members.

As Books said, to state "this is the only way" shows a lack of open mindedness.  As I said before, I wish I had a dollar for everything I've found a book or a "expert' has told me is so that is wrong, or at least what one finds that perhaps they didn't. 

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Mr Hunt – agreed, if there was a fellow just starting out it would be excellent to steer him on a good course no matter what his end-state impression will be. So, here’s my idear for a candidate of a good shirt style (not a 'dress' shirt) for a new guy to the 1870s/80’s…

Perhaps a good, basic – called ‘generic’? – shirt would:
1) be made of light or medium cotton of a subdued color (pattern; window pane or vertical stripes if any), 2) have small shell, white glass, pressed cardboard, japanned tin, vulcanized rubber, or gutta-percha buttons - he would have to frequent an antique store or two to find original buttons that likely will not come with a shirt from any supplier, 3) be a pull over with ½ length front placket, 4) have band collar with small button to on the back to hold a detachable collar and small, circular holes in the front for a collar stud, 5) Button & collar stud holes: All hand-sewn using a proper button-holing technique and I’d say button holes vertical as that is what the pics of originals I’ve seen so far bear our in the majority. As CW discussion came up earleir on this thread regarding button holes, I did a quick look at both the original US & CS shirts in Echoes of Glory to see what the button hole situation was. The Fed shirts were all vertical (with the exception of the horizontal collar band button hole from what I could tell), the CS shirts were vertical holes (again, horizontal for collar band) but there was a clear example a ‘homespun’ shirt with all horizontal button holes on the placket shown in the CS book.

No matter what the ‘generic’ shirt turns out to be, there are always variations. But, hopefully, the ‘generic’ shirt described above would be a good start and likely prove useful even after the new guy bought/made other shirts, etc for his impression. I figure a shirt like that detailed above would be a good, basic shirt for just about anybody.

This is a good thread – looking forward to other inputs.

YMH&OS,

‘Monterrey’ J. Brass

[Delmonico]

A totally hand sewn shirt is wrong in most cases unless you can come up with a reason why somebody made it for you at home.  The reason is the majority of shirts the average person owned were store bought, many forget that this is the more modern world, most clothing used was factory produced by women, often young girls from the country who had moved to the big city, they used sewing machines for all but the button holes. Read the accounts of for example cowboys being paid off and buying new clothes in the stores.

Hand sewn was either homemade or high end custom tailored where really good hand sewing was a mark of quality. 

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Correction to my initial posting on this thread. Should read: "2) have small shell, white glass, pressed cardboard, japanned tin, hard rubber, or gutta-percha buttons - he would have to frequent an antique store or two to find original buttons that likely will not come with a shirt from any supplier," , not 'vulcanized' rubber - sorry for my error, in a hurry I guess....

YMH&OS,

Monterrey J. Brass

[Books OToole]

I just went through my shirts this morning.  I have one store bought shirt, I think it is a WAH, and it has horizontal button holes.
The rest of my shirts were made by my wife, with hand sewn, horizontal button holes.  (Button holes that you can't see because I almost always wear a silk scarf tied like a tie.)

For cowboys or buffalo hunters the heavy dark colored shirts are the way to go.  However for most people, tradesmen, clerks, drummers, bartenders, gamblers, etc., a plain white cotton shirt is the most common.  The most authentic buttons that are easily obtainable are mother of pearl.

For those who are reading this and are new to the concept of trying to dress authentically while shooting guns of the old west (replicas), don't fret.  Most NCOWS shooters are wearing store bought shirts and trousers that are machine sewn.  (The sewing machine is pretty common after the Civil War.  One of the buckskin jackets in The Fontier Scout and Buffalo Hunter Sketchbook is machine sewn by and Indian.)  I am pickier* than most and until this morning I never paid attention to which way my buttonholes went. [*I don't like snaps on suspenders.  But most of the time they are under your vest.]

Jim Boeke has a great philosophy for new comers.  "True to the eye of the camera."  If you can't see the anachronisims in a photograph, you'll be fine.

Books

[Fox Creek Kid]

Again - we are attempting a single standard for the guy buying one absolutely correct, most common, will work 99% of the time workshirt. Something a new person can start with and ALWAYS be correct for early 1870's thru early 1880's. Do not get loss in variation, that comes with experience and persona development.

Well put, Mr. Hunt.

Books, I'll agree with your summary as well. Well stated. 

Since this is the public forum we should approach this from the perspective of the prospective neophyte. Sure, there were variations, but I'd like to believe people can explore these avenues once they get to a Level II. Remember, the average "Joe NCOWS" doesn't probably do a lot of primary source research and could care less about different "levels". That's fine, but it helps the organization as a whole to aid & abet those who are just beginning to get started on the right foot.

[Silver Creek Slim]

The following are links to the 3 levels of "Creating the Outfit" that Fox Creek Kid referred to previously.
http://ncows.org/Creating_the_Outfit_1.htm
http://ncows.org/Creating_the_Outfit_2.htm
http://ncows.org/Creating_the_Outfit_3.htm

Slim

[Delmonico]

Well put Nolan, as always.  I am oft critized for this statement but it amazes me how many will work so hard to create the "perfect" period outfit and yet waste all that effort on just going to a shooting rance and sometimes even changing clothing there.  If we want to change the general publics perception of the "Old West" we are the ones who can change that if even in a small way. 

Also as I have pointed out many times there is more to any "higher level" than just the clothing, if you don't know a grass rope from a gutline, perhaps the "higher level" as a cowboy had best at least be studied more if not changed to a prusuit that is more to ones knowledge. 

As for the little details, they are hard to get perfect and sometimes has to be over looked with the knoledge that some things are hard to get right with out going to extremes.  One thing that always grares out at me but can only be changed with a lot of work and/or cost is the wood on most firearms.  The fact that most repro guns have the so called English walnut on them instead of the black walnut of the "common" originals is very noticeable at a distance far more than any writing on the barrel or any button holes on a shirt.

One can either choose to ignore it or do something about it, the choice is up to the individual, this is in all things, it is funny how many will chime in on their little area of expertice and ignore many other details.  But perhaps that is for another day and another thread. 

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

cut/paste from F.C. Kid: "Since this is the public forum we should approach this from the perspective of the prospective neophyte. Sure, there were variations, but I'd like to believe people can explore these avenues once they get to a Level II. Remember, the average "Joe NCOWS" doesn't probably do a lot of primary source research and could care less about different "levels". That's fine, but it helps the organization as a whole to aid & abet those who are just beginning to get started on the right foot."

F.C. Kid - Your info above is really the challenge of this whole thing and I think that is very much the spirit of the thread at this point. I agree that there should be a way to guide a new guy the 'right' way with everything he needs. Question is, what constitutes 'right'? There is no need to say it, though I will, that a new guy starting out with NCOWS is predisposed to do better with even rudimentary authenticity than with other large shooting organizations. This is by virtue of the difference with the general NCOWS membership types (and corresponding historical interests) alone. So I am all for helping the 'new guy' and, though we may disagree on what that means regarding shirts, it is nice to see a philosophical thread like this detailing the nature of what even the definition of 'common' or 'standard' is - it really is refreshing to see this sort of discourse.

Carry on all and thanks,

YMH&OS,

Monterrey J. Brass

[Will Ketchum]

First, I want to compliment everyone regarding keeping this topic useful without getting into rants or serious disagreements.

This topic belongs on the open forum so prospective members can learn not only about 19th Century shirts but also that we can disagree in an agreeable manner.

I have learned a lot about button holes that I have never even thought of.  Thanks everyone.

Will Ketchum

[Ol Gabe]

"In for a penny, in for a pound.", and just for the sake of discussion, only...
F.C. K.,
Your points are well-placed and accepted, and if it would be possible, please explain in detail with supportive documentation, the blue shirt with 'stars', or whatever they were, that you so proudly wore at the GAF Muster last fall as a Confederate I recall, and how that pattern falls into the above category that you so strongly urge and support regarding colors, material, patterns, etc.
Now I know there were lots of wild patterns and that anybody that could afford to buy an ell or three of material might sew up some fancy shirts for a visit to town, etc., but  I'm still wondering how that particular image was historically-correct to the period. Hoping that you can enlighten us all with your research as it can be an extra helpful bit of knowledge for those that find 'wild and crazy' patterns to sew into NCOWS-type shirts, etc.
Best regards and good stitching!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

W. Ketchum,

Since we're on the subject of button holes, I hope to figure out how to scan & post an illustration from 'The Complete Encyclopedia of Needlework' by Theresa Maria Josepha von Dillmont (initially published in French in 1884). The authoress details many interesting things in her book, which is an excellent reference about many needlework skills, but of interest to us here is her copperplate engraving of how to do a proper hand sewn button hole stitch. Such are quite strong and look great if done properly. The kicker is that there is an illustration of not just the regular one but also of one to be used on linen (they're a bit different).

Perhaps that will be a compliment to this thread though I should start a new one. I'll be out of the net until early next week out of town on TDY and will not be able to post the scan until then. I'll have my good pard Mr Hunt assist me with the technicalities of this web sorcery as I am no good with frickin' computers...!

Until then,

YMH&OS,

Monterrey J. Brass

[Fox Creek Kid]

I took the idea for the Missouri guerrilla shirt from a photo of Bloody Bill Anderson that has a shirt with stars on it. I sent the corduroy fabric (corduroy has been around for centuries), to Miss Kimberleigh in Va, who was a garment maker of considerable notoriety for The NSSSA trade, with instructions for appropriate pouch style pockets, correct button holes & respective metal buttons. It was made based on photographic research as well as her first hand knowledge of garments from the era, albeit no surviving MO guerrilla shirt has been documented to the best of my knowledge (unless Books has one sequestered  ). The sewing, the type of fabric, the style, the button holes & buttons are of the era. The pouch style pockets on an overshirt are common to the era, as can be seen in the only photo of Jesse James taken during the war.