PC late 1870's early 1880's shirts

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

F. C. Kid,

I like the idear of your having a 'battle shirt' with all the trim & etc. We see a lot of fireman's shirts (aka 'bib' fronts) but not too many of 'battle'/bushwhacker type shirts. As it's basically an overshirt, workshirt/smock sort of thing they are very durable and practical. And there are many, many variations based on fabric type, color, pocket and trim details. I'm inspired to sport my gray jean wool w/black wool tape trimmed double front pouch pocket shirt more often - especially if the weather is a bit nippy.

On anoter note, I understand the provenance of corduroy is either French (corde du Roi?) or English, either way it definitely pre-dates the Victorian era by awhile. The only reference to corduroy I have in my library is noted in 'Rural Pennsylvania Clothing' by Ellen J. Gehret, pg 266. There are two extracts from two different Pennsyvania newspapers advertising for the return of runaway servants. One from 1757 for a servant wearing olive colored corduroy camisol and breeches and the other from 1792 for a servant wearing a black corduroy camisol. Anybody got the skinny on the exact historical roots of and origin of corduroy? If so post what you know (please include historical references). At any rate, the above extracts are primary sources which show that corduroy was around before the old west era without a doubt.

Anything on the historical roots of corduroy is welcome, please post.

Thanks,

YMH&OS,

Monterrey J. Brass

[Silver Creek Slim]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy

Slim

[Ol Gabe]

F.C.K.,
Thanks for the info, as soon as you indicated 'Anderson' it all made perfect sense, I recall seeing that photo somewhere, sometime and wondering about the pattern.
Good topic discussion everyone, I'm learning more, keep posting data.   
Best regards and good stitching!
'Ol Gabe

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[Delmonico]

Since the NCOWS period goes to 1899, I'm going to add an 1886 picture from the Butcher Collection, I've done a lot of work with it on shirts but have a lot more to do because of the vastness of it.



First one for discussion is the old man with the beard, one will note it appears the shirt is full button as the placket seems to go down into his pants, 3 buttons are visable, but there are more likely 2 more under his beard.  I found far more full button shirts or what seem to be full button shirts in this collection than what I expected.  One reason is many of the subjects are not wearing vests that would hide this fact, you see more of them on younger kids, but few of them have vests on.

Also note the rolled up sleeves, you see a few of these photos, but this is the first I've ever seen that wasn't a blacksmith or someone branding or doing another job where the sleeves would get in the way.

The second fella has waht appears to be a button up the back shirt, a common item in these pictures.  Note the lack of buttons, but more telling, no break in the collar.

One must also give thought to the fact that here are not one but two shirts that many would consider unusual and on two homesteaders out in central Nebraska, not consider a leading center of modern fashion at the time, perhaps they are not as unusual as many would think.

This is pictue 13554 in the collection.

Also not visable in the crop, is the first picture of a hat with the brim laced to hold it up that I've ever fould.  It is not a neat job like you see on some hats today, but it is there.

To those new to these discussions, the Solomon Butcher photos were taken in Central Nebraska in the middle 1880's to about 1910, the collection can be searched at:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award98/nbhihtml/pshome.html

The site does not allow direct linking though.

The Butcher collection is very valuble because almost all of the 3000+ pictures exist as 6X8 glass plate negative and has been scanned at very high resaloution.  This keeps the picturres honest because many you see in books and such have been touched up and alterered.

Sadly few photographers back then kept their negatives, many in far flung areas cleaned them and reused them as happened with LA Huffmans from Miles City.  Also the ones in large towns often sold them and they were used to make green houses, a common item with rich folks in cities in the time period, even the White House had one in the time period.

[Lone Gunman]

Ketchum has probably forgot this (I had to go look) but our old green sateen Marine utility shirts had horizontal button holes. They were discontinued in the mid 1970's. I don't have any of the newer camo stuff but my guess is they might be horizontal too.

On Del's photo:  Isn't the old guy holding a fox, or maybe a coyote pup?  Also, to see the hat with the laced brim you'll have to click on the link and then enter the photo number (13554) in the search form. It's worth taking a look at, the boy with that hat is also wearing his powder flask & shot snake.  I can't tell if the lady on the far right is holding a kitten, a bunny or a baby pig...none of which would hold still long enough to take a glass plate photo.

[Delmonico]

If I try to put the whole photo in, Photobucket sizes it to 1 meg.     Notes say a coyote and another look shows I missed the second laced hat, was studing shirts last week when I found this.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Ketchum has probably forgot this (I had to go look) but our old green sateen Marine utility shirts had horizontal button holes. They were discontinued in the mid 1970's. I don't have any of the newer camo stuff but my guess is they might be horizontal too.

I just checked the two BDU shirts in my closet. They have horizontal button holes. One was my brother's from the middle '80's.

Slim

[Will Ketchum]

It's worth noting that their shirts look like perhaps their best but their trousers are well worn and patched, at least the bearded Gent's are.  Take a look at the younger man's hat.  I would say that is pretty typical for a working man's hat.
 Oh and George, I do remember the button holes on our utility jackets.


Will Ketchum

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!
 
  A very nice image!

  It is possible though, without seeming to be negative or contrary, (but in the interest of study and documentaiton) that his shirt is not open fronted.  It may just have a long five (or six) button placket that with the combination of high waisted trowsers and a seated position- that the placket may actually end where it appears to end.

   Not saying it is or isn't, just that the "visual" is not undeniably exclusive to one interpretation.

   Mick Archer

[Delmonico]

Image 10174, same collection



Image 11191 same collection.

I have several more from this collection and a couple of others that show the full button shirts along with some other strange ones. I need to do some more cropping and uploading though.

Even with the hat in the way, the placket goes down to far for a  pull over type.

[Delmonico]

How about a bib shirt with the bib most likely sew on except for the top of 1 side.  Picture 10176.



This and other pictures makes me think that a one size fits all common shirt may be a bit of a mistake to assume.  How many other variations of shirts are unknown or lost because of lack of documentation?  Just another reason to roll up ones sleeves, dig deep and get you hands dirty doing research rather than just except what others say.

[Irish Dave]

Del:

Especially in the photo of the bearded elderly man, it would also seem to me that the placement of the buttons, i.e. the distance between them, would also be more indicative of a full-button front than a placketed style, which generally, IIRC, are usually closer together than this one. 

The collar shapes and breast pockets are also very interesting to note.

[Silver Creek Slim]

The man's shirt may be a back button shirt.

Slim

[Delmonico]

Thats what I take it for.  Many photos of kids with full button, but few kids wear vests that would hide it.  I'll try to get some more of the oddities I've found up as I have time.  I have dial-up at home so loading pictures and up-loading them into phot bucket is a bit slow.

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!

  Now we're cookin' with gas!
    

   Mick Archer

[Delmonico]

  Now we're cookin' with gas!
 

Not period incorrect in a lot of the large cities of the time.   Also by the late 80's you could use that new-fangled electricity, one must remember after the late 1830's things changed really fast.

BTW the guy with the bib shirt has at least one button on his fly undone.

[Dr. Bob]

Fly unbuttoned!  Would that indicate that the button hole was torn??  I would think that the photographer would have said something before he took the cover off of the lens.

This has been one of the best threads [pun intended] here in the City of late!  Thanks one and all!!

[Delmonico]

One idea and most likely as good as any other.   Sometimes I think though Butcher was so busy making sure all the little odds and ends he wanted in the photograph were where he wanted them that he didn't pay much attention to the people themselves.  The better the pictures, the more questions there are to ask.

[Deadeye Don]

Not period incorrect in a lot of the large cities of the time.   Also by the late 80's you could use that new-fangled electricity, one must remember after the late 1830's things changed really fast.

BTW the guy with the bib shirt has at least one button on his fly undone.

Priceless,   Having your picture taken in the 1800s for posterity and all future generations to see......and having your fly open. Safe shooting. Deadeye.

[Delmonico]

OK we'll see if I did this so it will come out 6X8 as the original.



When you look at the distance the original was taken and the fact this fella had to get the horses to sit still, it is no wonder a small item like a fly got missed.  But no one would have likely noticed till my friend John Carter scanned them in at high resaloution.  By far not the only thing noticed after all this time.  Once again having the neagatives helps.

Note, when looking through this collection the ones sepi tone are from prints, sometimes both a print and a negative exist.  Once in a while there is just a print.

Edit, looks pretty close to me.  This is the size of the prints he made for those who he took pictures of.  I have met folks who have the original prints of some of these pictures, a very nice family heirloom to have.