Elk County Forum

IF you are prepared to spend a minimum of $10,000 (down from the original $20,000 and less than Mr Liebau's desired 30K to50K) to make improvements to your real property...and pay the non-refundable $100 application fee...and if the improvements result in a specified % increase in your property taxes...and if the county appraiser approves your application...and if you pay the full property taxes on time...

You, too, may receive a rebate of 95% to 97% of the resulting increase in property taxes.  The rebate will be paid out each year for 5 years on a declining scale.  Oh, structures that are exempt from property taxation under state law (like hay barns, fixed greenhouses & wind generators) won't qualify.  Neither will fences/gates, most likely.

It's on the county agenda & Jennifer Montgomery (formerly Brummel) is already doing a sell job to the Elk Falls & Howard city councils.  

It's all part of a "neighborhood revitalization" program being pushed by Commissioners Liebau & Hendricks.  Such programs have been authorized by the State of Kansas to help municipalities give incentives to property owners to improve blighted areas.  Even though the state strongly discourages implementation of such programs on a city or county wide basis... our apppraiser, two commissioners and economic development director  are not planning to heed that guidance.  Heck, Ms Hendricks even suggested (at the last commission meeting) that most of Elk County is blighted any way.

So contact your bank loan officer or cash in those CDs and contact the building contractor!

I wonder... how many average citizens in Elk County will be able to afford to build & take advantage of this new government program..... I'm sure the owners of the old bank building in Howard, operators of trail ride operations or RV parks/fish farms will be able to.

How about we stop this nonsense.  This is an incentive for the very folks who least need 'government giveaways'.  Let them build and then pay their fair share of taxes to help fund county, school & town operations.  The state requires a local public hearing before these programs are adopted... so be prepared.

By the way, the plan being pushed for Elk County is being patterened after one in Meade County... you know, another Public Square/Terry Woodbury community,  Wait... isn't Ms Hendricks on the Public Square payroll?  Why, yes, she is.  Hmmmm.

Patriot, when are you going to stop sneering at our public officials and run for public office yourself?  You think you know so much more about this county then two of our native citizens do?

Wilma, maybe he has already been a County Commissioner.

I figured Public Squares and Elk Konnected, LLC was involved in this when they first started the talks about it.
I wonder how long they have been talking behind closed doors about it.

This isn't no Economic Development Program.

To me it is just another "Beggar Thy Neighbor" Program.

To bad they didn't start it openly before all tourist trail ride to the windfarm and the fish farm got started.
Now. They can't say it was planned first.

Like Elk Konnected, LLC was started before the wind farm. But they don't say the wind farm was in the testing and environmental stages do they.

What can you expect of an Elk Konnected County Commissioners Board, except for Mr. Ritz that is.
We just don't find many of the Mr. Ritz type these days.

It appears to me to be Elk Konnected County Commissioner Liebau
                                Elk Konnected County Commissioner Hendricks
                                Elk Konnected Youth Development
                                                        And
                                 Elk Konnected Economic Development

If they truly wanted Economic Development in Elk County why not plan for real Economic Development?
Purchase about  100 Acres at the intersection of 99 and 160 and start an Elk County Industrial Park.
Then they could offer land to companies to develop their manufacturing business' on and allow them the 5 to 10 years tax breaks for the tax base that would grow from the influx of people. This would provide good paying jobs and bring real money and real people into the county. Wouldn't that bring the growth that real economic development could provide?

But folks, I don't believe this is about Elk County Growth, that would bring in people with more money then the ones that have money now. And I don't believe they would like that, do you?

No, I think the present program is simply another, "Beggar Thy Neighbor" Program.

What is the blight in Elk County?

They might be referring to Howard's old abandoned high school, do you suppose?
Why doesn't Elk Konnected, LLC use it powers to tell Howard  to get rid of it?
It's inside the city limit's, taxed by the city, therefore a city problem, not a county problem.
Can't Elk Konnected, LLC with all their visionaries come up with some more free money to help the City of Howard?
Can't Elk Konnected, LLC get 'em a grant to tear that eye sore down?
Git 'er done.

It's not a county problem but a city problem.

But to even to indicate that Beautiful Elk County is a blight is a very negative thing, and just terrible, don't ya think?

That coming from Elk Konnected, LLC is simply disgraceful in my opinion?
If they think that terribly of our county why don't they take their privately owned company (LLC)  back to Wichita County  where it was conceived?  Maybe, they would be happier over there, what do you think?

If and when we get new County Commissioners perhaps they will discontinue wasting taxpayers money on the Elk Konnected Youth Development and Elk Konnected Economic Development positions and put the money to good use paying down the county's debts and graveling roads and perhaps up date or repair some of the road departments equipment. Perhaps?

Personally if I was holding those Youth Development and Economic Development positions, I'd be smart enough to be loooking else where.
Even though I don't have a degree, I'd be reading the writing on the wall.

Wilma two of your native citizens work more for Elk Konnected, LLC then they do for the taxpayers of Elk County, can't you see that?
Even Commissioner Liebeu's aunt called him on the carpet at a County Commissioners meeting, remember?

And I ain't got them papers from no college an I kan kin kinda figir out wats happenin. Sorta. LOL ;D
And I do believe most people have figured it out!

It's an exceptionally beautiful day in Elk County, so I'm getting outside and enjoy it.
I hope each and every one gets to do the very same thing.
Enjoy this beautiful day that is.

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 08:10:51 AM
Patriot, when are you going to stop sneering at our public officials and run for public office yourself?  You think you know so much more about this county then two of our native citizens do?

ROTFL One answer is the same answer nationwide. good ole boy network won't allow it.

   Property taxes are enough strain as it is. A $10,000 dollar investment for an abatement is absurd at least.
   I will be interested to see how many fall for this. (and who)

 In addition this is wealth (class) discrimination at its worst.
Once again the little guy bends over and takes it while the ruling class trundels on.

You guys understand.
ROTFLMAO
I sure wish more did.

Quote from Wilma:
Patriot, when are you going to stop sneering at our public officials and run for public office yourself? You think you know so much more about this county then two of our native citizens do?

Wilma,
I have been a "native" to Elk County for over 60 years and I don't know  horse crap from apple butter when it comes to the way the county is run so I don't think being a "native" has much to do with anything. Why do you put so much faith into something someone says that might have been born local, but moved away for their entire life but when someone moved here they don't know didly squat ? Not fighting with you, just asking a question

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 08:10:51 AM
Patriot, when are you going to stop sneering at our public officials...

As soon as four conditions are met....

1.  The 1st amendment to the US Constitution is repealed, and;
2.  The state stops taking my property/money under penalty of life or liberty, and;
3.  Our government officials stop enacting programs to enrich themselves at the expense of average citizens, and;
4.  Hell freezes over.

The price of peace and liberty is eternal vigilance!

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 08:10:51 AM
...and run for public office yourself?

Interesting idea.  I'll consider it.  Can I count on your vote?

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 08:10:51 AM
You think you know so much more about this county then two of our native citizens do?

It appears that a handful of your so called native citizens have created a local government that operates inefficiently, is often self-serving, neglects the needs of average citizens, panders to cronies and has created a shrinking county with the highest property tax rates in the State of Kansas.  Just because I may not know all the historical local monikers for local landmarks like Wolf Trail, Blood Alley and Peoples Hill doesn't mean I can't see cronyism, political favoritism, special interest pandering, self serving policy agendas and weak management on the part of government.  Seeing it on a local level is not much different from seeing it on a state or national level.... IF one pulls their head out and looks.

Jarhead, I put my faith in these people just simply because they have a family reputation to live up to.  What do you think would happen to their families if one of them was proven to be as dishonest as has been implied.  Implied?  H-e-double hockey sticks!  It has been said in plain English. 

Patriot, it remains to be seen as to whether or not I would vote for you.  I don't know anything about you.  File for something and see if you can get my support.

Wilma your eyes are closed to the simpilest facts.
Didn't you hear that even a County Commissioner, elderly aunt, whom I assume has high standards, called her nephew on the carpet during a commissioners meeting? I really appreciate a woman like that?
She has integrity, principles and above all honesty. Great woman.
Perhaps she would run for office.

I wonder, I've heard they have been doing considerable work around what use to be Busby for tourism, will that be grand fathered into the new Economic Developement program that is being developed?

Will they makle it retroactive for others as well?

Perhaps for Moline's feed store, those are some really nice people, I purchase from them often.
Perhaps for the Howard Drug and Grocery store, again, some really nice people that I purchase from often.

What is the real purpose, only time will tell, right?

I happen to know that aunt and she has my highest respect.  It is family members like her that will keep our commissioners honest.  She is a school teacher.  I would say retired, but she has never retired from teaching, just teaching in our schools.  I also knew this commissioner's parents or were they his grandparents?  There is so much integrity and honesty in that family that they would drum their family member out of the county, rather than have him be dishonest.  Enough said?

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 12:56:49 PM
...It is family members like her that will keep our commissioners honest...

So, your limits on the right to voice opposition to politicians and government activity in Elk County, Kansas requires both native county birth status AND a blood connection? Sounds more like a monarchy than a representative republic in America.  I suspect the aunt in question would disagree with your philosophy... she's as much as told me so in person.  Her measure of government seems based on character, conservative principal & performance, not on pedigree, personality or community pecking order.

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 12:56:49 PM
I happen to know that aunt and she has my highest respect.  It is family members like her that will keep our commissioners honest.  She is a school teacher.  I would say retired, but she has never retired from teaching, just teaching in our schools.  I also knew this commissioner's parents or were they his grandparents?  There is so much integrity and honesty in that family that they would drum their family member out of the county, rather than have him be dishonest.  Enough said?

Why doesn't it show through?
Why did he allow his Elk konnected, LLC to use county resources they had no business using?
The county web site?
The county emergency call system?
The county Youth Development employee?

Why does he stand by and allow his Elk konnected, LLC use
The School District web site?
The school building as if it were their own, for advertising their privately owned company?

Why?

Patriot, knowing this lady and her philosophy is the reason that I say that this family has high standards.  It has nothing to do with having been born in Elk County, although the family did homestead here.  You are wrong about my limits.  I would feel the same way about anyone whose family reputation precedes them or if I know personally of their integrity.  Unfortunately, some of the comments made on this forum speak very low of the speaker's integrity.  As usual, you are nit-picking and disregarding the gist of the message.

Ross, why can't you see it?

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 04:02:25 PM
...As usual, you are nit-picking and disregarding the gist of the message...

So, vocally opposing policies & programs being supported/promoted by an elected government official because you think that official's family reputation somehow makes them exempt from public criticism is nit-picking?  While I see where you're coming from, I strongly disagree. 

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 04:02:25 PM
Patriot, knowing this lady and her philosophy is the reason that I say that this family has high standards.  It has nothing to do with having been born in Elk County, although the family did homestead here.  You are wrong about my limits.  I would feel the same way about anyone whose family reputation precedes them or if I know personally of their integrity.  Unfortunately, some of the comments made on this forum speak very low of the speaker's integrity.  As usual, you are nit-picking and disregarding the gist of the message.

Ross, why can't you see it?

I have seen the holliest and most respected fall, due to sexual abuses.
I have seen the highest respected in our federal government fail.
We just recently saw our respected wall street, major banks and our Central banks fail.
Bail out after bail out and who do you think is going to pay for it?

Austerity is here in our country. Prisoners are being released, mental health patients are being forced out on to the streets.
Homelessness and poverty have sky rocketed. All because of all those upstanding citizens nobody was watching.

Do you see Occupy Wall Street growing?
It isn't just street people like the news wants you to believe.
It is older respected folks.
It's college students.
It's people from all walks of life>
They are talking about major growth.
I have read they are talking violence on down the road.

I hope and pray none of it happens, but I am not blind to it either.

What are they afraid of, I think they are afraid of the dominoes and that they might create an avalanche.

Have you read about Stockton, California they may file bankruptcy and 1000 people may loose their retirement.
Those are all those respected elected officials spending, spending their selves into debt. I bet too, that there was lots of Economic Development involved. No Body Was Watching, now it's to late.

That couldn't happen here, now could it?

Do you actually believe our governments tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 04:02:25 PM
Patriot, knowing this lady and her philosophy is the reason that I say that this family has high standards.  It has nothing to do with having been born in Elk County, although the family did homestead here.  You are wrong about my limits.  I would feel the same way about anyone whose family reputation precedes them or if I know personally of their integrity.  Unfortunately, some of the comments made on this forum speak very low of the speaker's integrity.  As usual, you are nit-picking and disregarding the gist of the message.

Ross, why can't you see it?

I brought up the lady and said I respect her for her desire to right the wrong. And she called her nephew on the carpet and the rest of the commisssioners on the carpet for the wrong.

Philosophy and honesty are not genetic, so your point is moot.
Sorry to have to tell you that.

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 12:56:49 PM
I happen to know that aunt and she has my highest respect.  It is family members like her that will keep our commissioners honest.  She is a school teacher.  I would say retired, but she has never retired from teaching, just teaching in our schools.  I also knew this commissioner's parents or were they his grandparents?  There is so much integrity and honesty in that family that they would drum their family member out of the county, rather than have him be dishonest.  Enough said?

Wilma you are right on. I know the families of all 3 commissioners and all 3 commissioners are fine hardworking young people. Most of the people I have talked to in Elk County think they are doing a fine job. In addition they think that Elk Konnect is a good organization for Elk County, they like the programs that EK does for the young and old alike. I say to the Commissioners KEEP ON KEEPING ON and ignore the the negative trash that people are making up.

Quote from: ELK@KC on March 01, 2012, 07:40:01 PM
Wilma you are right on. I know the families of all 3 commissioners and all 3 commissioners are fine hardworking young people. Most of the people I have talked to in Elk County think they are doing a fine job. In addition they think that Elk Konnect is a good organization for Elk County, they like the programs that EK does for the young and old alike. I say to the Commissioners KEEP ON KEEPING ON and ignore the the negative trash that people are making up.

Lest you forget Elk KOnnected, LLC is a privately owned company that runs around begging for money, taxpayers money.
They go to the County Commissioners and ask for money and they are asking their own members to vote to give them money?
Good job, huh.

They do the samething with the School District where they have their members on the the School Board?
Just amazing isn't it. Perhaps that is where you need to direct your vile   remarks.

Now that is just vile calling people trash.
Especially when you don't know them.
But that is typical of Elk Konnected followers. decide to
If people question Elk Konnected, LLC's  motives, put them down,
That appears to be the Elk Konnected, LLC way.

I suppose you agree with Elk Konnected County Commissioners and I have to quote because I wasn't at the meeting.

Quote from: Patriot on February 29, 2012, 10:32:26 PM
Heck, Ms Hendricks even suggested (at the last commission meeting) that most of Elk County is blighted any way.

So do you agree with suggestion by Elk Konnected, LLC?

I totally disagree. This is a beautiful county, beautiful drives anywhere you go in Elk County. With the exception of the old high school in Howard.

I have taken pictures of old houses and buildings that are leaning over so far it's amazing they are still standing. I don't find them to be a blight but artistic. There is one I believe on Road #2 south of 160 that s just amazing. The drive from Moline to Sedan is a very beautiful drive as well.

So why is Elk konnected working so hard tocsuggest the county is a blight?

And why is a privately owned company trying to control the county?

Isn't that what people across the US are upset about. Corporate America controlling our Federal Government?

Think about it, for all of a minute if you will.

NOTICE that The commissioners are saying that the county is blighted.  Persuant to the supreme court ruling Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)  should the county residents brace for the inevitable siezure and forfieture of prime properties that are inevitable when the commissioners find a corporation that is willing to move in? 

It sounds to me a statement of future intent!

Quote from: srkruzich on March 01, 2012, 09:13:55 PM
NOTICE that The commissioners are saying that the county is blighted.  Persuant to the supreme court ruling Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)  should the county residents brace for the inevitable siezure and forfieture of prime properties that are inevitable when the commissioners find a corporation that is willing to move in? 

It sounds to me a statement of future intent!

Wow, thanks Srkruzich.
That's frightening.
People should start paying attention.

Stopping Crony Capitalism

By Paul Jacob

Voters in Wichita, Kansas, went to the polls, Tuesday, to smash a measure that would have forked over $2.25 million in tax rebates to a downtown hotel project. Those supporting the giveaway spent $300,000 to promote the deal, while opponents ponied up a scant $30,000 against it. The vote nevertheless strongly weighed against the big money, 62 to 38 percent.

The Wichita City Council had enacted this "economic development"   deal with the hotel developers, and that would have been the end of it ... but for some pesky Wichita taxpayers.

Which proves that the average person does not need to be led.  Just give them the facts and they will make the right decision.

Quote from: Wilma on March 02, 2012, 08:23:21 AM
Which proves that the average person does not need to be led.  Just give them the facts and they will make the right decision.

Maybe there's hope for you yet... your observation identifies the basic issue being presented in this thread and others about local government.... informed consent.  When information is withheld from the public, when facts are skewed or misrepresented, when operations are undertaken without clearly informing the voters... people will make the wrong decisions.  Or worse, make no decision at all, simply trusting in 'family reputations' to carry the day.

Now, about that tax rebate program Elk County is considering......

Elk County is debating making available to Elk county citizens a rebate that will come from either the state or the nation, not from the Elk County treasury.  Elk County will receive the full amount of the taxes.  The citizen will receive a rebate from a program NOT funded with Elk County tax dollars.  What is wrong with that?  The citizen does not have to take the rebate.  The citizen is free to make improvements without the promise of a rebate.  What is the citizen being forced to accept?  At least that is the way I understand what I have heard about it.

Quote from: Wilma on March 02, 2012, 05:42:03 PM
Elk County is debating making available to Elk county citizens a rebate that will come from either the state or the nation, not from the Elk County treasury.  Elk County will receive the full amount of the taxes.  The citizen will receive a rebate from a program NOT funded with Elk County tax dollars.  What is wrong with that?  The citizen does not have to take the rebate.  The citizen is free to make improvements without the promise of a rebate.  What is the citizen being forced to accept?  At least that is the way I understand what I have heard about it.

Why is there a rebate. IF they can rebate the tax money then they can lower the taxes. That rebate crap is the same crap that the grocery stores do.  WHy rebate or why get a buyer card. JUST lower the darn groceries.   Two things that does, 1. people don't have to do without the money for however long it takes to get it back and 2. it costs less in accounting and bookeeing and writing rebate checks. How much money is wasted on that process when just lowering taxes would cost nothing.

Quote from: Wilma on March 02, 2012, 05:42:03 PM
Elk County is debating making available to Elk county citizens a rebate that will come from either the state or the nation, not from the Elk County treasury.  Elk County will receive the full amount of the taxes.  The citizen will receive a rebate from a program NOT funded with Elk County tax dollars.  What is wrong with that?  The citizen does not have to take the rebate.  The citizen is free to make improvements without the promise of a rebate.  What is the citizen being forced to accept?  At least that is the way I understand what I have heard about it.

WRONG!  The person/company making improvements pays the increased taxes & then the county rebates a large portion (95-97% in year 1) to the same taxpayer.  Read the 1st post in this thread.  Better yet, get out of the rumor mill and get a copy of the Kansas authorization plan & the Meade County plan from the courthouse.  Read it for yourself.  Ultimately the county loses that rebated revenue.  Show me documentation saying otherwise, and I'll regroup on this.

Further, even if it were state or fed money (and it's not), where do you think that comes from..... citizen taxpayers.

Informed citizens are better citizens.

Quote from: Patriot on March 02, 2012, 08:01:01 PM
WRONG!  The person/company making improvements pays the increased taxes & then the county rebates a large portion (95-97% in year 1) to the same taxpayer.  Read the 1st post in this thread.  Better yet, get out of the rumor mill and get a copy of the Kansas authorization plan & the Meade County plan from the courthouse.  Read it for yourself.  Ultimately the county loses that rebated revenue.  Show me documentation saying otherwise, and I'll regroup on this.

Further, even if it were state or fed money (and it's not), where do you think that comes from..... citizen taxpayers.

Informed citizens are better citizens.

AKA redistribution of wealth!

Quote from: srkruzich on March 02, 2012, 10:23:45 PM
AKA redistribution of wealth!

Actually, in our case, protection of wealth for those who can afford to take advantage (build a new home, make major improvements, etc.)  All while everyone continues to foot the bill for the status quo in outrageous property tax rates.

Of course, there's also the prospect that improvements, especially in residential/commercial centers will impact overall property values to the up side resulting in higher property taxes for all unless the mill levies are reduced.

Patriot, then explain this.  I pay my real estate taxes to the county treasurer, then I file for the Homestead Refund which refunds a portion of the taxes that I pay.  Does this refund come from the Elk County Treasury?

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 08:35:23 AM
Patriot, then explain this.  I pay my real estate taxes to the county treasurer, then I file for the Homestead Refund which refunds a portion of the taxes that I pay.  Does this refund come from the Elk County Treasury?

We're not discussing Homestead tax relief, but that program also reduces the revenue available to the county, state and schools.  Albeit, IMO, for a much more worthy cause.... because it is more likely to relieve people on lower fixed incomes from high taxes.  The program in question is more likely to benefit only those who are in much better financial condition.

Talk about nit-picking.  As taxpayers at large carry a higher and higher burden of property taxes, you're worried about which bottle the poison is stored in.  Every property tax dollar taken in is divided between the state, county, school and town based on their levies.  For every dollar in refunded/rebated property taxes (regardless of the program) that dollar becomes unavailable to the state, the county, the school, the town, etc.  One more program to short the coffers is one too many.  Especially with costs rising for fuel, rock, supplies, insurance, etc.  As the county costs rise, so will rise the levies required to pay for them.... paid for by the majority who don't get other tax relief like Homestead recipients.  Economic 101.

Wilma, tax money is tax money.  All taxes are monies confiscated by government at some level... taken from the production efforts of private citizens/businesses.  Have you no compassion for the rest of the taxpayers... or since you get yours back from the government, does it just not matter any more?

 

In case you haven't noticed, I am 82 years old.  I do pay taxes just the same as you and I have been paying them for a longer period of time.  Now that my income is set and my ability to go out and add to it had ceased, I am going to take any advantage that is offered.  I paid my share of all taxes whether I benefited from them or not.  Now it is my turn to receive.

As to a rebate to encourage citizens to improve their properties, why not?  As somebody else has already said, an improved property improves the value of the property next door, also.  I doubt that this rebate, if it becomes available in Elk County is going to cause a massive increase in home improvement.  I wish something would.  Elk County it such a good place to be, I wish everybody could take advantage of it.

Patriot, have you decided what to run for, yet?

Interesting the mindset that if you pay taxes for x number of years that one would expect to get money back.  Entitlement mindset.  So much for the grandiose gesture of paying taxes to "benefit" your fellow man mindset! 

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
I paid my share of all taxes whether I benefited from them or not.  Now it is my turn to receive.

You got what you paid for.... roads & infrastructure, fire & police protection, etc.  What more do you think you're entitled to?

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
As to a rebate to encourage citizens to improve their properties, why not? 

In practice, due to participation thresholds, it will only benefit those who least need handouts... those who already 'have'.  Are you going to spend $10,100 of your wealth to add on to your house so you can get the rebate?

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
As somebody else has already said, an improved property improves the value of the property next door, also.

And, based on mill levies, it will increase the tax dollars the neighbor has to pay as well.

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
I doubt that this rebate, if it becomes available in Elk County is going to cause a massive increase in home improvement.

I agree... so what's the point in passing it... other than to give a free ride to someone planning to improve a runway or build a bunkhouse in association with a tourist operation?

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 10:45:01 AM
Patriot, have you decided what to run for, yet?

Yes.

Would you care to share?

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 01:09:23 PM
Would you care to share?

I think I've got some leftover fried chicken from dinner and some blankets.  If you're hungry or cold, I'll gladly share.  As for feeding your incessant need for the latest potential gossip & rumor, I'll pass.  How about we try to stay focused on current issues involving county management and tax rebates for the wealthy and the effects those might have on average taxpaying citizens.

If you are going to run for public office, it will have to be made public sooner or later.  People that keep secrets never get my vote.

Quote from: Wilma on March 03, 2012, 06:45:42 PM
People that keep secrets never get my vote.

Never?  I thought you voted on a regular basis.  Now, about those tax giveaways...

Patriot, there's socialist Republicans who would not vote for you.

However, you should easily have the support of the true conservatives.

Go for it.  Run.

You guys are very entertaining! Several of you demand answers to every political question you ask, or you suggest that people have something to hide. In several cases I've noted subtle changes in the language of some statements that change the context from which the questions would be answered.  Example...there is a big difference between Elk County having blight and being a blight. Misquotes can be poisonous.
But, then you don't want to answer questions that are asked of you. The asker is considered nosy or is accused of diverting from the subject. Do you have something to hide?  ;D ;D ;D ;D  Poke, poke.
  If you really do run, you will be fair game for every potential voter, especially ones that may have dirt on you already....and it doesn't even have to be accurate! I doubt you could win based on just "true" conservatives, whom ever they are. If one contributes to an ugly political atmosphere, one can be considered nuts or many other such words, and their families can be victimized too to bring down a candidate  This should be fun to watch. Have a nice Sunday.

Doane,
EVERY government official is subject to questioning. That is how we hold them accountable.  They must explain their actions no matter what. They are our employees and if they won't be held accountable then they need to be fired fast!  There is no excuse for them not answering questions.

As far as I am concerned, i don't care if its patriot or ross or Satan himself in office, They are accountable for every decision and action. 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
You guys are very entertaining!

Finally... something we agree on.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
But, then you don't want to answer questions that are asked of you. The asker is considered nosy or is accused of diverting from the subject. Do you have something to hide?  ;D ;D ;D ;D  Poke, poke.

And you, like others here, seem unable to distinguish between inquiry/discussion that attempts to invade a private citizen's liberty and inquiry/discussion regarding elected officials' actions when such discussion is specifically protected by the 1st Amendment.  Jist a reminder... I'm not subject to the codified transparency requirements that apply to government officials.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
  If you really do run, you will be fair game for every potential voter, especially ones that may have dirt on you already....and it doesn't even have to be accurate!

True.  Here, of course running, for public office isn't the defining 'fair game' qualifier... vocal opposition to the actions of blindly supported idols is.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
I doubt you could win based on just "true" conservatives, whom ever they are. If one contributes to an ugly political atmosphere, one can be considered nuts or many other such words, and their families can be victimized too to bring down a candidate  This should be fun to watch. Have a nice Sunday.

Spending some time in federal courts listening to arguments on constitutional issues is highly educational when it comes to understanding true conservatism in re the Constitution.   You should try it sometime.

Consider me nuts, but I'm not the one making ASSumptions in this new 'running' claptrap.  What, exactly, will be fun to watch... conservative change in Elk County management or a gaggle of fools chasing their tails in a mill of unfounded rumor? 

He who laughs last, laughs best.  Poke poke, grin grin, chuckle chuckle.  :)

P.S. Your veiled threat is noted.  Have a nice week.

My veiled threat? What in the world are you talking about? How and why?  That's nutz!

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 11:55:33 AM
My veiled threat? What in the world are you talking about? How and why?  That's nutz!

Words matter, Diane... So do reactions.

Did you know that the person driving the getaway car for the bank robber is guilty of bank robbery just like the bank robber, even though they didn't actually enter the bank.

Now, what will the tax rebate in question actually do for Elk county?

I demand you tell me what my "threat" was!  Are you trying to shut me up? Your word stunts won't work on me since I'm not there. I thought I was being perfectly reasonable and as neutral as possible.Good grief!

Quote from: Patriot on March 04, 2012, 12:02:22 PM
Now, what will the tax rebate in question actually do for Elk county?

Well... here's my two cents on this thread. 

I do believe that it would be a whole lot easier for someone to go to  https://www.kansas.gov/propertytax/index.do for info;
or http://www.elkcounty.org/appraiser.htm for advice; or attend a Elk Co. Commissioners meeting and address your question(s) in their public forum for answers to property tax relief than here.  From what I have read, Patriot doing fairly well to make his point, (if he would stick to the point) tho' I'm seeing quite abit of doublespeak and some derision, mockery and a bit of contemptuous laughter going on by him.  But hey.... who am I to say anything.... to each his own... right?  Btw... property taxes can be quite a tricky problem to find the particular calibration in timing that would be appropriate to stem the acceleration in risk premiums created by falling incomes without prematurely aborting the decline in the inflation-generated risk premiums.  Where do you stand on this....  just wondering.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 04, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
  If you really do run, you will be fair game for every potential voter, especially ones that may have dirt on you already....and it doesn't even have to be accurate! I doubt you could win based on just "true" conservatives, whom ever they are. If one contributes to an ugly political atmosphere, one can be considered nuts or many other such words, and their families can be victimized too to bring down a candidate  This should be fun to watch. Have a nice Sunday.

Diane this is just a plain ugly statement in my opinion.
You are insuating that the people of our county are actually that ugly. I don't believe it for one moment.
Dirt on someone --- it first has to exist.
And I feel certain if there were people in Elk County of that persuasion,
they would have already used the suggested dirt just to shut down these threads.

Are you suggesting that our people in Elk County would victimize women and children to get what they want?
That's absurd unless:
Do you know such people in Elk County?
Are they related to you?

How can you know all this from over a thousand miles away?

I'm sorry to have to tell you this but, I'd have a tough time sleeping at night if I thought like that.

New study finds Kansas' tax loads worse than reported
By kansasreporter on March 5, 2012

TOPEKA — A new national study says Kansas business owners pay some of the highest taxes in the country.
No surprise there, one business owner said.
"We have so many kinds of taxes, and they are all high," said Ken Daniel, chairman of Midway Wholesale Co., a Topeka building materials distributor. He said his 40-year-old company's tax bill will be in the neighborhood of $150,000 this year.

(Skipping down several paragraphs)

The new study, titled "Location Matters — Business Tax Costs in 50 States," was released this week by the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan research and education organization in Washington, D.C., that advocates for lower taxes.
The study notes, "Kansas offers among the most generous property tax abatements and investment tax credits across most firm types, yet these incentives seem to have little impact on the state's rankings for new operations."Derrick Sontag, director of Americans for Prosperity-Kansas, said the practice of government picking winners and losers must come to an end.   "When you read a report like this how can one not come to the conclusion that we need to address this problem with aggressive tax reform that provides everyone an opportunity?"

Dave Trabert, president of the Kansas Policy Institute, told KansasWatchdog that, "Incentives are what one offers (whether a business or a government) when one is not competitive."

{They seem to have so many different ways of saying ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT call it what you want, it doesn't appear to work, does it?}

There is more bad news for Kansas in the study. You can read the whole story at:
http://kansas.watchdog.org/8676/new-study-finds-kansas-tax-loads-worse-than-reported/

And in the face of having the highest property tax rates in Kansas we have a select few elitists who want to use a new 'program' to provide property tax money giveaways a limited few.  Talk about trying to pick winners and losers.  While some will argue that the tax rebate will be 'available' to anyone, the reality is that, in our current economy, only a few will be able to afford to participate.  Effectively, they are locked out... or psychologically pushed into taking on more debt so they can participate.  Kinda like telling you the Chevy Volt will save you tons of money on gas... IF you can afford the $46,000 price tag. 


The thought that government needs to get out of the way isn't just for Washington D.C. any more.  Local government needs to focus on government priorities:  Excellent management to provide the highest quality roads/infrastructure, police protection, fire & emergency response available.  IMO County government should not be in the micro loan banking, youth entertainment & sports stadium construction business.

There is a segment of all populations that thinks sports are hugely important, and rec. for their kids is too. Why don't they have a say? They pay taxes too! Some times people do band together to make their case before local Gov't. Shouldn't they have the freedom to be recognized and heard? I think some proposals are silly too, but they need to be recognized without having to hear cat calls and jeering. (runways and golf courses)
  So who gets to set the priorities? Those who were elected to do so or those who don't run, weren't elected and refuse to go through the '"chain of command" so to speak and snipe as radicals outside the system?  A system, by the way, that isn't always  convenient and doesn't have to be. It just has to exist, loopholes and all.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 09:15:10 AM
There is a segment of all populations that thinks sports are hugely important, and rec. for their kids is too. Why don't they have a say?

THey do, thats their responsibility to pay for it. not everyone else.  Just because a few like sports does not entitle them to taxpayer money.  What about the folks that dont want their tax dollar wasted on sports.  Their voice is being ignored.

QuoteThey pay taxes too!

SO what.  Taxes are not collected for providing entertainment. IF you want to be entertained, foot the bill yourself.

QuoteSo who gets to set the priorities? Those who were elected to do so or those who don't run, weren't elected and refuse to go through the '"chain of command" so to speak and snipe as radicals outside the system?  A system, by the way, that isn't always  convenient and doesn't have to be. It just has to exist, loopholes and all.

You call stadiums and parks and rec and all that necessary?   Ok stack it up against constitutional law. Are these provided by constitutional law?

Quote from: srkruzich on March 05, 2012, 09:43:07 AM
Ok stack it up against constitutional law. Are these provided by constitutional law?

(Sarcasm on)

But, but, but Steve... Don't you know the Constitution is a 'living, breathing document' meant to be changed and interpreted in context with the times!  Times have changed, don't you know.  The Constitution says government should 'provide for the general welfare.'  When people play sports & get free cellphones they feel better and their welfare is improved!  Dr. Phil, Oprah & Joe Biden said so!

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 09:15:10 AM
So who gets to set the priorities?  Those who were elected to do so or those who don't run, weren't elected and refuse to go through the '"chain of command" so to speak and snipe as radicals outside the system?

You seem  to have a real problem (read: lack of understanding) regarding the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution.  Chain of command??? What are you talking about?  Citizens and their constitutional protections of free speech ARE the system.  'Radical', in America, would be to think, let alone suggest, otherwise.  The room full of people I'm sitting with took a group gasp for air when your quote above was read aloud.  Wow.

Patriot if you guys found that astounding did you read her last post on Elk County Hand Out. Way off base.

I'm out of here, nice outside weather and work beckon me?

Why the sarcasm? I didn't say I agreed, I was just stating one side of the 'freedom" issue.  Constitutional law doesn't provide specifically for roads either, or street lights or your water works. Don't ya all want to have to haul water? What's wrong with outhouses anyway? They are very energy efficient and aren't tax based (just poking)  
 If your sports folks happen to be the majority, whether it's football or rodeo, doesn't majority rule win?
 Who paid for the  many fair rounds?   Are they privately owned? Some are, or are owned by groups. Do people buy tickets to go to events? Or is everything free because of taxes already paid?  Is having more than one even remotely efficient? Many different ways work, it just depends on whether you want all user fees, business or corporate support or subsidies from your Gov't . As far as taxes go, I don't mind as long as I'm getting good value for what I pay.

Many states long ago voted to raise their own taxes to pay for roads so they wouldn't have to deal with the questionable doings of toll road owners and operators.
We did the same thing here a few years ago, voted to raise our own taxes, to pay for a new reservoir filled by White Clay Creek. It passed by a huge majority, yet a few people fought it and are still griping even though they use the water too. It allowed us to disconnect from a partial, very expensive, water service from another vender. Newark now owns and controls all it's own water. So when every kid on campus flushes at the same time on move in day, it no longer runs us short and we don't get "conserve water''  notices! ;D ;D ;D
As far as chain of command ,you know exactly what I mean.  Go to the meetings. Ya want to speak, you ask to be put on the agenda, accept what time is assigned for speaking and wait your turn. You don't all just stand up and start yelling. That's totally uncivilized and accomplishes nothing. Freedom of speech doesn't protect or condone out of control childish behavior...At least not in 2012. Ya want to protest, get a group together, go outside outside and do it. You definitely have the freedom to do that, might need a permit though.
  But, I guess you don't agree with majority rule.
 A gasp for air...good, they are thinking.  I'm not sure why you would be reading my post to a "room full of people" but that's fine by me.  I try to take all views into consideration when a choice is to be made. I don't care if you agree, but fairness says consider what all have to say, not just your close friends. People of many ages and maturity levels vote. Many will slowly change their minds about issues as they learn, mature and get some life on their bones. You run for office you'll find that out.

White Clay Creek appears to be a  very densly populated area.
That in no way, no how compares to our little county.
We have less then a 1/4 person per square mile.
What do you have where you live maybe 5,000 peopel per square mile.
Big difference, huh?

What difference does that make?

Quote from: Wilma on March 05, 2012, 01:58:15 PM
What difference does that make?

Population density is a critical component when it comes to cost of government services, expenses & revenue.  2 kids in the same house cost more than one.  With regard to taxes... the larger tax base in the taxing jurisdiction will also affect the tax revenues to be expected.  Why are property tax rates less in Sedgwick county than in Elk.  Significantly more improved property to tax, greater service needs but with many more people contributing to the overall cost.

Of course, if you increase the amount of improved property in an area but rebate all the property taxes you make no gains in paying the expenses.  The potential new revenues are lost. Perhaps that's why businesses don't run rebate offers day in and day out on the same product.

In our case, John builds a new barn & gets his taxes back.  Fred keeps paying the taxes on his one year old barn (and rates haven't gone down because there's no new tax revenue from John).  If John's new barn catches fire, it's Fred's taxes that pay for the fire service (equipment maintenance, fuel, materials, etc.) to save John's new barn.  Hell of a  deal for John.  Not so much for Fred.  Then there's the new culvert pipe John will probably ask the county to provide so he can get from the road to his barn.  And the added need to keep the road up as John makes mud ruts in the road coming & going to his new barn.  As these costs increase, it becomes apparent that Fred is carrying the tax burden for John.  Equitable?  Show me how.

Just wondering... If I owned a private 2200' x 100' turf airstrip, registered with the FAA and I decided to upgrade/pave it... how much do you think the property tax increase would be?  Maybe I should just build a new hanger or metal barn instead.  In any case, I sure would love a tax rebate.

Uh, why isn't the fire company getting money from the Insurance Companies? We do. Check out ISO. Doesn't John's taxes also help pay for the Fire company?
  I'd love to be fully funded by tax money. I'd never have to run another fund drive!   If the insurance company pays for a new barn, who get the rebate? The insurance company?  Anyway, they'll raise John's rate for having a claim.
Aren't both farmers getting subsides other don't get? Tax relief on farm fuel? cheap crop insurance, subsidies on what they grow? Is it fair? Probably not, but who promised fair anyway.  So how would you fix it?

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 03:12:29 PM
Aren't both farmers getting subsides other don't get? Tax relief on farm fuel? cheap crop insurance, subsidies on what they grow? Is it fair? Probably not, but who promised fair anyway.

Did someone say they were farmers?  And what does that have to do with property tax rebates?

In any case... one wrongdoing by government doesn't justify a second.

The point being, some people can get one thing and others perhaps something else as "relief." Also if John and Fred aren't farmers or ranchers why did they need barns? ;D I doubt anybody who can take advantage of rebates and subsides would suggest it's wrong. They can just not apply if they feel strongly about it.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 08:12:38 PM
...Also if John and Fred aren't farmers or ranchers why did they need barns? ;D

When was the last time a rancher got subsidized livestock insurance or price stabilization subsidies? 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 08:12:38 PM
I doubt anybody who can take advantage of rebates and subsides would suggest it's wrong. They can just not apply if they feel strongly about it.

Please show me the plain language in the constitutions of the US or Kansas that authorizes government subsidy of the private sector with taxpayer monies.  Lately, I think we've seen the poor track record of government doing just that.  If government employees/officials want so badly to control business, let them leave taxpayer employment, get a private sector job or start a business of their own.

I need to build a dairy to make some cheese to eat while reading this whine.  Milk by the way is produced on ranches(dairy) and is a subsided commodity.
  So what happens in year six?   You will rip up your paved airstrip?     I mean the only reason you are paving it is because of the lower property tax.  Right?  Airstrips that are graized  are ag land right? Exempt?   How much property tax do you pay on your imaginary airplane?
I call bullshit....

Quote from: Patriot on March 05, 2012, 08:53:33 PM
When was the last time a rancher got subsidized livestock insurance or price stabilization subsidies?

Seriously after the incentive has expired  a net gain on the overall tax on the property at about year eight.  What could you possibly build that would depreciate to nothing in five years? Better yet why would you build it?

  Sorry, there is no injustice for "John" or "Fred."  Fred always has the option of utilizing every program available to John.  Bad management of tax law is just as costly as inefficiency of any operation.  Choosing to make widgets instead of raising animals has some tax Advantages and disadvantages.   Sitting on your hands does nothing for anyone but the ass you are grabbing.

You are whining about other people's assets, other peoples capitol, and other people's property rights to deny an incentive program that will add value in the grand scheme.    Your don't build here at any cost has not worked for the growth of the county.  Why not support something else?

You don't offer a better or more effective alternative. 


Sounds to me like sour grapes.

Just like clockwork.........



Welcome back, Patrick er Not-fred... aka PEP... aka Arc Fault.... aka...

Obvisously, this fellow "Not-Fred" isn't one to stand for your liberty.  It appears that he favors working by and thru government to get your money for his deal.

Quote from: Diane Amberg on March 05, 2012, 11:03:54 AM
  But, I guess you don't agree with majority rule.

DUH, neither does the founders of this country.  This country is a republic based on the rule of law not mob rule!

Quote from: srkruzich on March 06, 2012, 09:10:11 AM
DUH, neither does the founders of this country.  This country is a republic based on the rule of law not mob rule!

This is a totally ridiculous statement. You don't live in Elk County, you have never lived in Elk County, you don't pay taxes or own property in Elk County, yet you keep trying to stir trouble in Elk County. Like it or not the majority still rules in America.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."  Thomas Jefferson

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson


It seems, ELK@KC, that the history you learned at the hand of a government school was flawed.  America is a democratic republic.

Oh.. and I DO live & pay taxes in Elk County.  But what does the have to do with anything?

Quote from: ELK@KC on March 06, 2012, 09:21:39 AM
This is a totally ridiculous statement. You don't live in Elk County, you have never lived in Elk County, you don't pay taxes or own property in Elk County, yet you keep trying to stir trouble in Elk County. Like it or not the majority still rules in America.

what does where i live and what i own have to do with stating a fact. one of which you obviously are against constitutional law. 
As far as what i have and what i do in elk county you have no clue nor will you ever know what i do or pay in elk county.  :)  Thats the beauty of constitutional law. It protects my rights against those like you!

You improve a building or structure or improve the value of a property by more that $20,000. That does not mean you only spend 20k.  It means the property value increases.  Comps to other structures, location and market determine assessed value.  If you gut a finished basement then remodel it to a man cave you have not necessarily added value to the property.  If you update a kitchen but add no significant square footage the taxable value might not change much.  Also you have to have the tax bill current with the county.  No late filing.

So for instance:   You build on to $50,000 building that raises you assessed value $20,000.
The tax bill on the 50k original structure would not change.
1st year you pay $100.00 fee then are reimbursed 97% of the improvements part of the counties tax bill.  On $20,000 with a 189 mil levy x 11.5% the tax would be about $434.  The  city, extension, school district, fire or other mil assessments are not reimbursed.
1st year you pay your taxes on time to the tune of $534.  You get a rebate of 420.98
2nd year you pay taxes on time and are reimbursed 77%.  You pay $434.  Your rebate is $334.18.
3rd year you pay taxes on time and are reimbursed 57%. You pay $434. Your rebate is $247.42.
4th year you pay taxes on time and are reimbursed 37%.  You pay $434. Your rebate is $160.58.
5th year you pay taxes on time and are reimbursed 17%.  You pay 434. Your rebate is $73.78.
So in five years you save about $1236.90. It still added to the county tax rolls improved the area and you get something nice for your >$20,000 investment.   

The taxes paid by year five would be $1033.10.   
So this would be a $1236.90 abated revenue for the county on a minimum $20,000 private investment.
6th year  and following years you pay taxes with no reimbursement.  $434

So why do you want Beggar-Thy-Neighbor for such paltry sums?

Quote from: Toirtap on March 07, 2012, 08:14:19 PM
...The  city, extension, school district, fire or other mil assessments are not reimbursed...

Unless, of course, Jennifer Montgomery (county economic development director) is successful in convincing the various towns/boards to enter into inter-local agreements to participate in the program.  She's already visited at least two town council meetings to 'sell' the plan..... even though the plan has not yet been fully written, vetted or accepted by the county commission.  One commissioner is on record as opposing the program.  Why is a county employee busy selling an non-existent plan to the towns and at whose direction?  Who the hell runs this county?  The commission or just a portion of the commission?  And some here wonder why there are complaints of backroom dealings in county government and/or deals worked in concert with selected business entities.  Transparency.... just like Obama.  But much closer to home.  Same political party affiliations too.  

Toirtap  aka  Mr. P. Perkins... you are a real piece of work.  LOL

Blah blah. Preaching blah blah.  Condescending blah blah

Loss of purpose quit bringing Steve into everything.  He does not beg from his neighbors he just wants things others do need anymore.  More of a repurposing.  

Transparency. You login as patriot. Hypocritical much?    

Do you use CFL bulbs?  It could save on electric bill but has a higher up front cost.   But concept is lost if you are not willing to put out for the up front cost. L.e.d are better but have a much longer payback window like five years.  So don't invest in anything that takes five years to payout, it is your money.  Keep inefficient REC needs the cash-flow.

You know with your asphalting the airstrip dream and the goats have you been practicing for your next jihad.  I would hate to drop a dime to dhs.   If I tried to breed goats for profit I could use a $20,000 new studio to film them,or  to video market them to the only population that eats them.          Muslims have the internet so i could skype in HD?  So  where is the denial of my numbers not the advertising of an email, my name mister open and honest.  Why do you hide behind the curtain like a little old man I'n the wizard of oz.   We don't have a dictator this far north.   Closest would be Cuba.    Elk county has never had anyone running it.  They tried to run a nursinghome a few years back but failed, after several nonfund warrents,miserably.   You are confused.  You run a business.  You run your mouth.

What does lol stand for loss of liberty?  

[/quote]

Go Pat Go!!!!!!

Sedgwick County won't join property tax rebate for new-home buyers

By Bill Wilson
The Wichita Eagle
Published Wednesday, March 28, 2012, at 5 a.m.


Sedgwick County won't participate in a property tax rebate plan for new-home buyers, a program that some public officials now say was "oversold" to them by supporters.

Wichita City Council members, who approved the rebate plan on Feb. 14, say they stand behind it, although one councilman is upset that he didn't learn until Tuesday that the rebate program produces a net short-term loss for the city.

The program was sought by the Wichita Area Builders Association to revitalize the new home construction market by rebating five years of property taxes and special assessments to the first 1,000 new-home buyers in the area.

City council members voted 6-1 to approve the plan last month. But some of them said that builders association officials indicated the county and its school districts, including the Wichita school district, would not oppose the plan.

The county won't consider the plan because state law prohibits the county from rebating property taxes, Commissioners Dave Unruh and Richard Ranzau said.

"I don't know that it would have passed over here because our own study shows we stood to lose almost $2 million ($1,832,294)," Ranzau said. "But it's a moot point now."


Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2012/03/28/2275070/sedgwick-county-wont-join-property.html#storylink=cpy

So you think this plan is crap because two commissioners from Sedgwick county think it is so therefore Elk county can't benefit from implementation.   Their record on  tax waste and private/public investment has worked out so well in the past.  Why compare the smallest economy in the state to the largest to justify your negative position?  Maybe as a tactic?

What happens in year six?  What is the tax on the asset?  Does it get torn down to dodge the appraiser?  What happens in year nine when the tax on the  new asset dwarfs the entire abatement?  That would be called growth.

You assume that the construction will occur with or without the tax abatement. 
There has not been any Capitol improvement in the last ten years has there?   Why would there be any now?

  I do not understand why you would not want to promote  and and provide incentives for growth. 


When you point out that we should oppose this plan because you don't like it you should also offer a better plan as an alternative.  That way we beggars and neighbors have a chance to send you the praises and accolades that you must so desire.

Quote from: Ross on March 07, 2012, 08:41:54 PM
So why do you want Beggar-Thy-Neighbor for such paltry sums?

Why are you against it if it is such paltry sums?  How does it cost you anything?

The brain trust currently in power has produced little in the way of significant growth in Elk County in the last 10 years.  In spite of Historic Monuments with new boilers,  Kommunity Konversations, water slides & mechanical bulls, grant giveaways and county money to subsidize under funded stadiums (read crumbling bleachers), our population continues to shrink, our tax valuation continues to fall, taxes go up, roads degrade, and the job market is abysmal.  With a track record like that we are to expect that another new program sponsored by the same spendthrifts is gonna turn it all around?  Typical liberal progressive Democrat/RINO double down on bad policies. 

Obama would be proud.

 

And yet, you chose to migrate to Elk County?

Quote from: Wilma on April 03, 2012, 02:45:40 PM
And yet, you chose to migrate to Elk County?

You should be glad we migrated to Elk County.
You should welcome us.
We are a part of the tax base that supports the county, isn't that good growth?
We have add to the taxbase without, "Beggar-Thy-Neighbor" programs.

Can you say welcome and thank you?

Quote from: Wilma on April 03, 2012, 02:45:40 PM
And yet, you chose to migrate to Elk County?

Yes, I did.  But not because of the cold 'outsiders' stares & comments, cronyism in government affairs, back door micro-management, government giveaways or socialist leaning private enterprises. So what's your point?

Well, I guess I wouldn't be accepted then either would I? ;)

My point?  If things are so horrible here, why are you here?

Quote from: Wilma on April 03, 2012, 07:04:26 PM
My point?  If things are so horrible here, why are you here?

And my reply would be - because I can.  Does my exercise of liberty in that regard give you heartburn?

While we're here, perhaps you can explain your propensity to avoid discussions of public policy issues by always sidetracking into other citizens' private choices & affairs?  Is public policy here really that embarrassing to you?  If so, I would certainly understand.

My "lack of interest" is because, unlike you, I trust my friends and neighbors to do the best that can be done under the circumstances.  That is why I voted for them.  Incidentally, I have known most of the courthouse employees most of their lives.  I am remotely related to one of the elected officials.  Some of them went to school with my daughters.  Does that make me one of the "good ol' boys"?  Need I say more?

Yes, Wilma, it does.  No. Wilma, you've said it all.

Thank you.

Quote from: Wilma on April 04, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
Does that make me one of the "good ol' boys"?  Need I say more?

Quote from: Patriot on April 04, 2012, 10:43:07 PM
Yes, Wilma, it does.  No. Wilma, you've said it all.

Quote from: Wilma on April 05, 2012, 02:02:25 PM
Thank you.

You're welcome.


Good ol' boy network, sometimes known as an old boys' club, describes a system of social networking/cronyism perceived to exist among communities and social strata. These networks are perceived to be located throughout the world. It is sometimes taken to refer to informal legal, judicial, social, religious, business, and political associations among members, ("good ol' boys"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol%27_boy_network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ol%27_boy_network)

Cronyism is partiality to long-standing friends, especially by appointing them to positions of authority, regardless of their qualifications. Hence, cronyism is contrary in practice and principle to meritocracy.  Cronyism exists when the appointer and the beneficiary are in social contact; often, the appointer is inadequate to hold his or her own job or position of authority, and for this reason the appointer appoints individuals who will not try to weaken him or her, or express views contrary to those of the appointer. Politically, "cronyism" is derogatorily used.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism)

Collective narcissism (or group narcissism) is a type of narcissism where an individual has an inflated self-love of his or her own ingroup, where an "ingroup" is a group in which an individual is personally involved.[1] While the classic definition of narcissism focuses on the individual, collective narcissism asserts that one can have a similar excessively high opinion of a group, and that a group can function as a narcissistic entity.[1] Collective narcissism is related to ethnocentrism; however, ethnocentrism primarily focuses on self-centeredness at an ethnic or cultural level, while collective narcissism is extended to any type of ingroup beyond just cultures and ethnicities.[1][2] Some theorists believe group-level narcissism to be an extension of individual narcissism, though others believe the two to be quite independent.  Collective narcissism is characterized by the members of a group holding an inflated view of their ingroup.[1] It is important to note that collective narcissism can be exhibited by an individual on behalf of a group or by a group as a whole.[1] Fundamentally, however, collective narcissism always has some tie to the individuals who make up a narcissistic group.[1] Collectively narcissistic groups require—just as an individual narcissist requires—external validation.[9] Organizations and groups who exhibit this behavior typically try to protect their identities through rewarding group-building behavior--positive reinforcement.[9] According to Golec de Zavala, collective is an alternative form of narcissism, not altogether connected to individual, where most characteristics of individual narcissism apply, but are manipulated to include the word "group" where "self" might be found. Golec de Zavala states some parallels between individual and collective narcissism.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_narcissism)

Ok maybe its just me but I would think that after the last commissoners meeting ANYTHING they come up with should be looked at very carefully!  Espcially when you consider some of the comments made by one commissioner in regards to the county having a "plan" to fix our roads, only to have the honesty of those comments put into question by another commissioner when she said "Kenny, we don't have a plan." So to those "natives" who fully trust the integrity and honesty of our elected officals I pose this question to you...Which commissioner should we trust? Because either way you go one of them has to be lying.

As for money issues within the county, espcially when we're talking about taxes, would you really trust the integrity of any plan put forth by our commissioners when they can't even answer as to why our road and bridge budget got cut by $60,000 when our roads are in the condition they are? 

"The Final Draft Plan" was presented to the county commission yesterday by Ms Montgomery. Action was deferred until the plan can be reviewed by the County Counselor that we haven't hired yet.  Final implementation will require a commission adoption vote, public hearing, Kansas AG review and a final implementation vote by our commission.

Stay on top of this one, taxpayers.

Personally, I suspect the refund of property taxes will be of little benefit to most taxpayers in our county, but it will result in fewer new tax dollars being available for county operations.  I also doubt if this program will excite any major employers enough to bring them here.  Especially considering the limited marketing effort of our econ development folk.  Similar tax giveaways are being resisted in other locations.

While it may provide tax relief to a wealthy few who can afford to build a new barn or house, it smacks of special treatment for an interested few.  Especially in light of the current economy.

And the story just gets better....

In the revised 'Neighborhood Revitalization Plan' mentioned by Commissioner Hendricks in a recent Prairie Star, the plan returns to the $20,000 expenditure requirement on the part of the interested taxpayer.  Even more puzzling is the 'Open Application Period' during which application for the tax giveaways can be made... now it is to be January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2014.  Read that again.  How can one apply for something that has not even been passed by the commission?  For potential applicants who are 'outside the beltway' this will make the true application period much less than 3 years.  I suppose if you were an insider of some sort you would have a jump on everybody else.  A typo, you say?  I don't believe that for a second.  Ever hear about proofreading?  The earlier plan had a June 2012 date... you're going the wrong direction.  Of course we still aren't sure what is expected to be 'revitalized' with this program.  

This, too, reeks of backroom dealing, special interest pandering, 'the public be damned' policy making.  Don't tell the public the full details until your friends and family have had their fill at the local public trough.  Please, Commissioners... how about operating fully above the table.  If this thing is so great for Elk county at large, then sell the thing to the public at large BEFORE you promise the goodies to a special few.  Do your deeds in full public view, and get a fully informed public behind it before you push it through.  At least get the dates right, and  make the stories believable!

The idea expressed in the Kansas law about this is 'targeted' improvement in specific neighborhoods, and not a blanket giveaway program.  Do some reading about how most other communities have used this.  Even the lawmakers who wrot the state law in the 1990s discouraged 'county wide' application.

Varmit I think your point is well made.

They (someone) has been kicking around so called Economic Development in Elk County, yet when I asked Commissioner Liebau to define what Economic Development at a County Commissioners Meeting. 

He said he couldn't do it. This I believe.

He further stated that it was too complex to explain.

I'm sorry folks that is simpily politically saying you are to stupid to comprehend it.

The truth in my opinion is, it's away to pull the wool over peoples eyes.

Economic Development should simply be about, bringing outside money into the county in the form of new busines that provides jobs, which lead to growth in population. If this were the actual goal and was accomplished as such, it would benefit every land owner in Elk County by being able to lower property taxes. Really simple isn't it?

However, on another thread we read from a posterthat if you are not born and raised in Elk County that you should have no say in what the county does. To me that is a very big indicator that actual economical growth is not desired by some.

I ask you if this so called Neighborhood Revitalization is aimed at Economic growth in Elk County how is that bring in new money to help lower property taxes for every land owner in Elk County?

How many neighborhoods are there on Elk County Rural Roads?

Don't you suppose that it is pausable to think that his Neighborhood Revitalization program is designed to benefit just certain locals, and that perhaps they were born and raised in Elk County? Just to keep them paying thousands of dollars in property tax? You know their fair share!

Have you heard of austerity in other countries that is happening due to the World Financial Crisis?
They don't cll it austerity here in the USofA but the very same thing is happening here in our Country.
It's happening right here in Kansas.
I just read this morning that Wichita due to budgets cuts will soon be laying off employees.

Yes AUSTERITY is here in our country.

Last summer, I overheard some of our volunteer firemen discussing their budget. They had just put out a grass fire and were concerned how long their budget would last to pay for gasoline so they could drive to the grass fires. Are we in for another draught, and are we prepared for numourous grass fires? Is there plenty of money for the firetrucks? Or are tax breaks for the wealthy more important?

What else might hurting for budget money?

Can we really afford to give very large tax breaks to the wealthy?

I don't think so, do you?

At the hearings for "Neighborhood Revitalization", it is really just a conversation, just an oportunity for people to voice their opinion.

I'd tell them neighborhoods are in the towns, not in the country.
I'd tell them that the towns have their own governments with their own City Ordinances to deal with those problems.
Heck, didn't Howard just recently hire an enforcement employee for that purpose?

Just a side point?
Didn't Howard tell a resident to shut down his lawn mower business he was running in his yard, in Howard?
I believe, I was told the family moved completely out of town?
Where was the Economic Development, to help the man, figure out how to run his business in Howard, instead of making him feel he had to move out of town?
How does that help population growth?
Where were all the volunteers to help this man?

Sorry, I got off track.

Quote from: Vitriol on April 03, 2012, 02:04:41 AM
Why are you against it if it is such paltry sums?  How does it cost you anything?

I don't call it a paultry sum.  
How does it cost me? That's just a plain dumb question.
I still pay exorborant taxes, while you and your friends get exorborant tax breaks.

Would you give me a senior citizen discount of 50% on my property taxes? NO!

Check out these figures taken from Meade County NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM which I believe our county copied from. it is posted at their web site. http://www.meadeco.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=x2FAnzZDoIc%3d&tabid=3588

Total Tax Eligible For Rebate Rebate Admin Lot
Year Paid Rebate % $ Cost $
1st $2,350.93 $2,304.83 100% $2,304.83 $69.14 $115.24
2nd $2,350.93 $2,304.83 90% $2,074.35 $62.23 $338.81
3rd $2,350.93 $2,304.83 80% $1,843.86 $55.32 $562.38
4th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 70% $1,613.38 $48.40 $785.95
5th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 60% $1,382.90 $41.49 $1,009.52
6th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 50% $1,152.42 $34.57 $1,233.09
7th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 40% $921.93 $27.66 $1,456.66
8th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 30% $691.45 $20.74 $1,680.22
9th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 20% $460.97 $13.83 $1,903.79
10th $2,350.93 $2,304.83 10% $230.48 $6.91 $2,127.36
Total Tax Paid Over Ten (10) Years $23,509.30
Total Rebate Over Ten (10) Years $12,676.57

And I believe Meade County tax levy is less then ours.

Elk County did not list this information in their proposal, I wonder why?
Are they afraid the citizens might object, if they recieved the full story?


Check out Elk County's
NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM
not lsted on our web site but at Amazon
http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/01201201206190124197774.pdf

This program does nothing to help the majority of the citizens of Elk County, it does absolutly nothing to help the people on fixed incomes or the poor.

It does absolutely nothing to improve the Economic Economy of Elk County.

But suppose someone wealthy decides to build an expensive home.

I heard there is a new home in the North East corner of Elk County of approximately 60,000 square feet.
(Correction as pointed out by Mr. Durbin, that should have been 6,000 sq ft, my boo-boo. Thank you Mr. Durbin for pointing out my error.)

No I haven't seen it, but just suppose there is! What do you suppose the approximate ten year rebate on it be would? But based on $76.44 per sq ft the cost would be $4,586,400 and that would be on the cheap side IMHO.

My best estimate because, I don't have access to needed information would be approximately $105,708.87 tax per year. Over a period of 10 years, it would be approximately a loss of $504,190.57 in county property tax.

I understand there may be as many as three more homes of the equivalent size that are being planned.

Now, suppose if that were to happen, then that would be equivalent to $317,126.61 in property tax lost to the county in the first year. Over the ten year period the loss would be approximately
$1,512,571.71.  Just chicken feed right?

If the county can afford to give tax breaks, let's give tax breaks to all land owners. Instead of favoring the wealthy.

Once again,
Check out Elk County's
NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM
not lsted on our web site but at Amazon
http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/01201201206190124197774.pdf

It just reeks of yet another Konnected Kounty Kommissioners plans to help themselves or their frends.
You know, that "Old Guard" that Elk Konnected, LLC wrote about in one of their letters.

Good night.

Well Ross, you obviously did not read the pdf document that you linked to, or you would have easily seen that Elk County did not copy Meade County's program outright.  According to what you have posted, the Meade County program is for ten years, Elk County's is for only five, meaning any increases to the tax base built under the program will be fully taxed, no rebates, in year six, not year eleven like Meade County.

Meade County's program collects 43.35% of what would be due over the ten year period in tax not rebated and administration fees.

Over the same ten year period, Elk County's program will collect 77.64% in tax not rebated and administration fees.

On other words, over a ten year period, Meade County gives away $56.65 out of every $100 that would be due, while Elk County only gives away $22.36 out of every $100.

Which program is better for the county coffers, the one Meade County enacted or the one the Elk County Commissioners approved?

flint...

Please address the effect our higher levy has on the comparisons in terms of actual dollars vs associated costs. 

Also discuss funding, as a reading of the statute clearly indicates that this thing is funded from existing local  resources and NOT from actual taxes paid in by the participating taxpayers.  Also talk about the other (non-rebate) ways the local fund monies can be used... the statute clearly infers there may be other uses ... construction grants or other giveaway 'incentives' perhaps?

Please address the more basic issue of who exactly in Elk county this program targets and how, specifically this program will benefit Elk county... not some empirical comparison to other, far wealthier communities, but what the research projects for improvements here.  What specific areas are targeted for 'revitilization'?  Surely our county leadership has studied this plan in detail and has a comprehensive outlook... no?  There surely has been some local study, communication with property holders, potential developers, etc... right?  Personally, based on the lack of public communication by those pushing this program, I suspect there has been very little locally applicable research other than 'oh, look, free money for me'.  If I'm wrong, show us the beef, please.

By the way, you should know that the original local document was  almost word for word plagiarized from the Meade county plan.  Shouldn't it be crafted uniquely for Elk county circumstances and conditions?   What about a $50 application fee like the Osage county plan requires... what justifies the $100 fee here?  Why did Commissioner Leibau say he would like to have seen the construction cost threshold at $50,000 or even more for our plan?  At a public meeting, he said, , "As far as I'm concerned, the amount should be 30, 40 or even $50,000 or more."   

The basis of the Elk county plan seems highly arbitrary and capricious, unstudied and ultimately self-serving to the personal benefit of a very few.  Beyond that, and absent any clear evidence to the contrary, I fail to see how this thing would revitalize a chicken coup in Elk county.  But it sure looks good for the more affluent residents... kind of a kick back program for those who can most afford & benefit from new construction and who least need a rebate of their property taxes.  What about Ma & Pa Kettle who are living on a fixed income in a house in need of a complete overhaul... what's in it for them?

Finally, this state act allowing these plans has been around since the mid 1990s.  If it's so great for Elk county why are we just now exploring it.  Where have our local past n present economic development experts been for the last decade and a half?  Just wondering.

This isn't to discuss the pros or cons of the program being discussed--just to question part of Ross's earlier post.  Is there really a 60,000 sq. ft. house being built (or already built) in NE Elk County, with the prospect of as many as 3 more being talked about?  What's up?  Are Jed Clampett's descendents all coming to Elk to settle?  That would mean new people are moving into the area, giving you some of the population growth you've been seeking wouldn't it?  Or are these being built by all the "Old Guard"?  How about it, Patriot--that's up in your and Commissioner Ritz's area of the county.  Can you substantiate any of this?

Quote from: flintauqua on June 24, 2012, 01:17:25 AM
Well Ross, you obviously did not read the pdf document that you linked to, or you would have easily seen that Elk County did not copy Meade County's program outright.  According to what you have posted, the Meade County program is for ten years, Elk County's is for only five, meaning any increases to the tax base built under the program will be fully taxed, no rebates, in year six, not year eleven like Meade County.

I think you ass/u/me to much!
Where did I say they copied word for word.
Did I not say, I believe they copied?
Thanks for confirming that!
Did I say, they did not change it up?
Show me where, I said that?

Quote from: Ross on June 23, 2012, 09:41:28 PM
Check out these figures taken from Meade County NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM which I believe our county copied from. it is posted at their web site. http://www.meadeco.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=x2FAnzZDoIc%3d&tabid=3588

So, what is the county hiding?  our county web site?

So, why isn't the proposed plan posted on our very expensive County web site instead of on Amazon?

Why doesn't show some figures like Meade County or other counties do?

What are they hiding?

Why do our county officials need you to speak for them?
Are you an insider on the program?

Anyone can juggle numbers, even me, and either one of us can be wrong, right?

And, I am sure we are talking much larger numbers in the rebate, then you are talking or it would not be worth while, now would it

Quote from: flintauqua on June 24, 2012, 01:17:25 AM
Meade County's program collects 43.35% of what would be due over the ten year period in tax not rebated and administration fees.

Over the same ten year period, Elk County's program will collect 77.64% in tax not rebated and administration fees.

Quote from: Ross on June 23, 2012, 09:41:28 PM
On other words, over a ten year period, Meade County gives away $56.65 out of every $100 that would be due, while Elk County only gives away $22.36 out of every $100.

Anyone with any sense can see that those figures are a joke?

If the county can afford to give away money (your words), let's give some to each and every taxpaying landowner?

If there is going to be a limit on the low end (which I don't think is necessary), I think there should be a high end limit, (which should be of great importance). I'v got an idea, lets just make the bottom $2500 and the top $10,000 as a pilot program. Then if that shows some financial justification raise it to say $2500 with a top of $20,000. One year for each and then see if there is any change in the County economical or population situation?

Oh, I just met someone that just moved into a house right here in Elk County, how about that?
They moved here from over by Girard? Did they do it for an incentive package?
I bet they didn't?
It's got to be a large growth spurt for Elk County, doesn't it?

Quote from: Ross on June 23, 2012, 09:41:28 PM
Which program is better for the county coffers, the one Meade County enacted or the one the Elk County Commissioners approved?

When did the Konnected Kounty Kommissioners approve this  NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM ?

It has to have at least one hearing first, and I believe it has to be published in the newspaper also before it is approved. Are you trying to make people believe it is a done deal and that they have no say in it?
Just like the $ amounts, confuse people and tell them it's not enough to worry about, is that the game?  

If I'm wrong on my guestimations of super large rebate amounts, I'd like to hear about it from someone in authority or someone that is not going to tell me, I'm saying something I'm not saying.

If you have any real honest to goodness fact's please annotate them.

Thank  You!

Quote from: ddurbin on June 24, 2012, 06:57:09 AM
This isn't to discuss the pros or cons of the program being discussed--just to question part of Ross's earlier post.  Is there really a 60,000 sq. ft. house being built (or already built) in NE Elk County, with the prospect of as many as 3 more being talked about?  What's up?  Are Jed Clampett's descendents all coming to Elk to settle?  That would mean new people are moving into the area, giving you some of the population growth you've been seeking wouldn't it?  Or are these being built by all the "Old Guard"?  How about it, Patriot--that's up in your and Commissioner Ritz's area of the county.  Can you substantiate any of this?

Do you really want more outsiders?
So you natives can say so-n-so, wasn't born here, when they address county business?
Is that the plan?

If you go back and read what I said, "I said I heard and I also, said I had not seen it."
There is no need to substantiate what I said, but it does make a point all of it's own.

Apparently that bothers you, something that large would cost the county plenty of money in property taxes!
You wouldn't want the taxpayers to know that right?

Are you suggesting that it would not be possible?

Then a cap of $50,000 would not be unreasonable, would it?

Afterall, they want a low end cap to prevent poor people from applying. right?

To me it all just stinks of a scam on the taxpayer?

Don't they talk about studies done in the plan about Elk County, but fail to show by who or when or where?

Just my humble opinion.

I have an e-mail from some prince that will send you $100,000 if you will just pay him $100 dollars in good faith. Because he wants to put the $100, 000 in a safe bank in the USofA and he will pay you $1 million for helping him do this. Or some such crap like that. Any takers?

Ross,
You're the one making a lot of assumptions now.  All I was asking was whether the houses you mentioned were actually being built and/or planned.  THAT'S ALL!  I wasn't trying to pass any kind of judgement on whether that was a good thing or a bad thing.  You are the one who started critiquing it---all in the form of questions, of course.  No wonder so few people will try and discuss or respond to your posts.

Quote from: ddurbin on June 24, 2012, 08:00:52 AM
Ross,
You're the one making a lot of assumptions now.  All I was asking was whether the houses you mentioned were actually being built and/or planned.  THAT'S ALL!  I wasn't trying to pass any kind of judgement on whether that was a good thing or a bad thing.  You are the one who started critiquing it---all in the form of questions, of course.  No wonder so few people will try and discuss or respond to your posts.

Good point Mr. Durbin.

However I did not assume a 6,000 sq ft home, I said I heard about one and stated I had not seen it. I also stated that I heard there were possibly plans for a few more. Not assuming, but pointing out what I heard?

But are we to assume it isn't possible?

As far as the NEIGHBORHOOD REVITALIZATION PROGRAM there are no real facts in the program?
It doesn't give all  the who, what, where, when and hows, now does it ?

For instance who did the study that Elk County will benefit from the program and how ?

Why have a low end cap? I assume to keep the less finacially fortunate out of the program ?

Personally, I think a top end cap would be far more important ?

Why did one Commissioner want an even higher low end cap?

Yes sir, all that is left is assumption by the general public.

And you seem to have a serius problem with answering questions?

Are you offended that a persons asks questions to learn what is going on?

Or is it because you would rather have accusations, so that you might be able to sue the person?

Are questions hard to answer truthfully?

It it perhaps easier to run a scam if a person doesn't ask questions?

What is the real problem with questions?

quote from Ross:
"I heard there is a new home in the North East corner of Elk County of approximately 60,000 square feet. No I haven't seen it, but just suppose there is! What do you suppose the approximate ten year rebate on it be would? But based on $76.44 per sq ft the cost would be $4,586,400 and that would be on the cheap side IMHO.

My best estimate because, I don't have access to needed information would be approximately $105,708.87 tax per year. Over a period of 10 years, it would be approximately a loss of $504,190.57 in county property tax.

I understand there may be as many as three more homes of the equivalent size that are being planned."

This is what got my attention.  I found it hard to imagine that a 60,000 sq. ft house was being built in Elk County, with the possibility of as many as three more of equivalent size.  Possible, yes----probable, I wondered.  If in actuality they are only 6,000 sq. ft., then I can more readily accept that as being possible and probable.

Quote from: ddurbin on June 24, 2012, 08:48:45 AM

This is what got my attention.  I found it hard to imagine that a 60,000 sq. ft house was being built in Elk County, with the possibility of as many as three more of equivalent size.  Possible, yes----probable, I wondered.  If in actuality they are only 6,000 sq. ft., then I can more readily accept that as being possible and probable.

Oops, Ya can't imagine a typographical error!
Or better yet what we called in the Navy, a brain fart!

I'll fix that, now that you pointed it out and thank you.

Quote from: ddurbin on June 24, 2012, 06:57:09 AM
Is there really a 60,000 sq. ft. house being built (or already built) in NE Elk County, with the prospect of as many as 3 more being talked about?  What's up?  Are Jed Clampett's descendents all coming to Elk to settle?

I'm aware of one large home being built. Very large by local standards, but 60,000 sq ft... not based on what I've seen.  More contemplated, don't know.  Substantial population growth?  Probably not.  Increased employment, industrial/commercial expansion?  Not sure, but doubtful.  The Clampett family fortune arriving in droves to raise families?  Can't say, but it looks more like a retirement/recreational opportunity for someone. Folks who will spend vast sums at stores locally thereby feeding the local economy... highly unlikely.  

Quote from: flintauqua on Today at 02:17:25 am

Meade County's program collects 43.35% of what would be due over the ten year period in tax not rebated and administration fees.

Over the same ten year period, Elk County's program will collect 77.64% in tax not rebated and administration fees.

On other words, over a ten year period, Meade County gives away $56.65 out of every $100 that would be due, while Elk County only gives away $22.36 out of every $100.


Quote from: Ross on Yesterday at 10:41:28 pm


Anyone with any sense can see that those figures are a joke?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ross, those figures are not a joke!  I did the math, then let the computer do the math, and guess what - those are the real numbers!!!!

The Elk County program collects over three-fourths of what would be due over a ten year period.  Meade County's program collects less than half over the same time period.

The only reason you want people to believe those numbers are a joke is because they don't fit your preconcieved notion that any and every thing the commissioners do is evil.

Many counties in Kansas have wind farms.  Show me one that has a PILOT that generates as much revenue per unit for the respective county as Elk County's does.  (Don't go spouting about Enid, because the underlying facts are not the same, and you know it.  Oklahoma puts wind farms on the tax rolls automatically, in Kansas PILOTs have to be negotiated since the wind farm is exempt from property taxes by the state legislature.)

Elk County looked at what Meade County and several others throughout the state have done to increase the tax base.  I show you that Elk County modified Meade County's program in a way that keeps a far greater percentage of taxes due in the county coffers, and you tell me the numbers are a joke.

More revenue per unit of size from a wind farm than any other in the state of Kansas, and a tax rebate program to spur growth in the tax base that keeps a much higher percentage of the taxes due.  Sounds like the Commissioners and the people they have had working on these projects over the past several years have been doing a pretty good job compared to their peers in other counties.

QuoteThe only reason you want people to believe those numbers are a joke is because they don't fit your preconcieved notion that any and every thing the commissioners do is evil.

That would be true 3 years ago. 
One new commissioner and now things are changing?  It's hard to keep a thought alive when facts or suppositions intervene.  More facts people, not faux news.

Start a new slate with comissioners, and let the people decide, then chart the progress.  Old grudges are just that.  a grudge.

There are opinions and those are fine and accepted.  There are facts, based on legitaimate facts.
If you have an opinion, that is great....let it be on a fact, documented and observiable.  Otherwise is it just that:  an opinion (no, don't bring on the ass/u/me thing joke)

I can do the math.  I can see through a smoke screen.  I just can't see my future.....>sighs>
ready

Dammit ready... why do you wanna confuse all this with practical common sense and wisdom?  LOL

lol Patriot...it makes for more gossip, and then fact become real,  in someones eyes...<blink, blink>  IF they can go on facts.<winks>

ready to rest my eyes

Quote from: Patriot on June 24, 2012, 06:03:43 AM
Finally, this state act allowing these plans has been around since the mid 1990s.  If it's so great for Elk county why are we just now exploring it.  Where have our local past n present economic development experts been for the last decade and a half?  Just wondering.

You are correct in the fact that the enabling legislation, SB 732, was passed in 1994 creating the program under K.S.A. 12-17,119.  During the time I was involved heavily in ECCFED in the late 90's, early 00,s and my subsequent term as Director of Economic Development in 2003-2005, the program did come up several times.  At first there was a consensus that there weren't very many counties operating a program, especially rural counties, and thusly very little information on what results were generated.  As time went on, this seemed to remain the opinion.  By the time I became ED Director, both ECCFED and the commissioners had many tasks for me to perform that they deemed to be of greater importance.

I do not know exactly when different counties began their programs, but I do know that it is now the norm rather than the exception for a county to have a program under this legislation.  All the counties that border Elk County have programs that generated rebates in tax years '09 and '10, and overall all but 36 counties had programs that generated rebates during those two tax years.

Well, we will play that game, okay.

The point was that perhaps with a litlle studying on the sitituation even though the Enid monies had not come about, there would have still been a better set of numbers for Elk County.

Perhaps if they had figured what the actual county tax would have been on the wndfarm would have been, they could have negotiated more money.

Was there in form of a study done?
If so, where was it published?

I suppose you do't fel there is any better way of accomplishing anything?
For instance wouldn't including all the citizens of Elk County with full disclosure of what the Konnected Kounty Kommissioners do be helpful?

Quote from: Ross on June 24, 2012, 06:32:12 PM
Perhaps if they had figured what the actual county tax would have been on the wndfarm would have been, they could have negotiated more money.

Was there in form of a study done?

Do you have a method to establish what the fair market value and appraised valuation percentage of a large scale wind energy project is so the tax due if the project wasn't exempt from property tax could be computed.  I don't know of one that exists now, and there certainly wasn't one readily available to county appraisers or county commissioners during the time the PILOT was negotiated.

Again, I reinterate.  I can not find a PILOT agreement negotiated between a Kansas wind project and a Kansas county that pays more per MW of nameplate capacity than the one negotiated between the Elk County Commissioners and the developers of the Caney River project, dated December 31, 2008. 

How can that be considered a failure on the part of the Commissioners?

Quote from: flintauqua on June 24, 2012, 06:00:46 PM
I do not know exactly when different counties began their programs, but I do know that it is now the norm rather than the exception for a county to have a program under this legislation.  All the counties that border Elk County have programs that generated rebates in tax years '09 and '10, and overall all but 36 counties had programs that generated rebates during those two tax years.

My question remains.. with more & more rural counties implementing these programs there should be some feedback on outcomes.  Why aren't we hearing about the outcomes, if they were effective, and how those will be realized by a similar program in Elk county?  Before implementation, I would like the leadership to provide some facts to support the need and efficacy of such a program locally.  Just because everybody's doing it doesn't mean it's effective, necessary or wise.  

Two of our county commissioners, Hendricks & Liebau, our economic development director and our county appraiser have been working feverishly to adopt a tax rebate neighborhood revitalization plan for Elk County.  Today's commission meeting, provided the answer to a couple of troubling questions.  Why was the open application start date in the new plan set to January 1, 2012?  Is it because the plan is being developed to serve some special interest?  Commissioner Ritz asked these very questions.  Here is a summary of the answers presented in the public meeting...

The appraiser provided the following:
1.  A former Enterprise Zone development incentive program was cancelled by the state last year.
2.  There was a citizen who, because of delays in construction, failed to qualify for incentives in that program before it closed.
3.  A 'replacement' incentive program (Neighborhood Revitalization Plan) was proposed locally.
4.  The proposed program has yet to be finalized by the county commission or approved by the state attorney general.
5.  Nothing in the plan was designed to provide special treatment to anyone.
6.  The proposed program was drafted & presented by our economic development director & our appraiser and they set the application start date in the new plan back to Jan 1, 2012 specifically so the person mentioned in 2 above could participate.
7.  There may have been other premature applications taken as well.


Read that date again... 1/1/2012.  Commissioner Ritz pointed out that it's darned difficult to apply for a program that hasn't been adopted or approved as required state law.  Ritz observed that the fact the date was admittedly set so the person in 2 above (and perhaps others) could participate & allowed to apply before the program existed and without paying the proposed application fee upon application made it appear the plan was, in fact, being structured to provide some special benefit to one or more persons.  In spite of the facts reported by the appraiser above & Ritz' observations, the appraiser vigorously defended her statement that the program had not been configured to benefit any particular person.

At the urging of Commissioners Hendricks & Liebau, Ritz moved to change the open application period start date to January 1, 2013.  Neither Commissioner Liebau nor Hendricks would second the motion.  The motion failed.  Apparently fair treatment of all our citizens did too.

Is this kind of back door special treatment that the citizens of Elk County deserve or expect?  Wouldn't it be more fair and equitable for the start date to begin AFTER the program has been clearly presented to the public and legally adopted & approved.  Let's hope the public can see the game being played, makes their distaste for such things in Elk County well known, and calls for change.


Next time we'll look at how this tax rebate program is to be funded and who is really paying for it.

So why should the Kommissioners owe a certain special citizen inclusion into their government program?

Why not back date the program about 10 years to January 1, 2002, to include others who missed out on the incentive too?

Government programs - that's not what this country is to be about.  That's tyranny.     

Quote from: redcliffsw on June 26, 2012, 05:33:36 AM
So why should the Kommissioners owe a certain special citizen inclusion into their government program?

Why not back date the program about 10 years to January 1, 2002, to include others who missed out on the incentive too?

Government programs - that's not what this country is to be about.  That's tyranny.     

AMEN to that redcliffsw

I just picked up this weeks Prarie Star Newspaper.

There was one little blurb in the back pages about he Elk County Summer Day Camp in the Notes from the Prairie section. However, it apparently now is called The Elk County/Elk Konnected Summer Kids Day Camp.

That's all I read in the paper about Elk Konneccted, LLC this week.

But i was actually looking forward to reading County Commissioner Hendricks Column about her take on the actions at this weeks County Commissioners Meeting and I could not find it. I looked several times, but what the heck I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, and I just got new prescriptions. If you happen to see her column wont you please tell me what page and column, thanks.

If it's not there, I wonder why?

Is it just too much of the wrong type of information to put in the newspaper that took place at this weeks County Commissioners Meeting?

Is it she couldn't tell us that the motion made by the only non-konnected Commissioner failed to be seconded by the the two konnected-Commissioners and therefore ended up tabled? Why start running a program with a date 7 months (1 Jan 2012)   before it has even had it's first hearing? Why not put a proper date (1 Jan 2013)   that starts after the proposal is approved if, it even gets approved?

Which date is actually the proper date ?

One that has came and gone before the proposal is presented to the taxpayer ?
(1 Jan 2012)  

Or one that takes effect if the proposal is approved?
(1 Jan 2013)  

Where are the ethics ?
Where is the Commissioners Column ?
Is she trying to hide something from the puglic?
What excuse will she come up with, for not writing her column, to inform the citizens what happens at the County Commissioners Meetingthis week ?

I bet there is ckearly plausable explanation, don't ya thunk?

     I think this is clear evidence of what Ross and Patriot have been asking about for a while. ::) ::) :P

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 28, 2012, 07:37:34 AM
     I think this is clear evidence of what Ross and Patriot have been asking about for a while. ::) ::) :P

If only some clever actor could move to the stage & pull the clear answers out of a hat.   :D

I was sitting and pondering the pending Supreme Court decision on Obamacare and was reminded of a comment made by Democrat Nancy Pelosi regarding the bill prior to its passage... "You just need to pass the bill to see what's in it."

The details of the Act (costs, long term effects on society & economy, etc.) were never made clear to the public prior to passage.  It would seem that is the approach being taken with the Elk County Neighborhood Revitalization Plan.  Based on what other countries (or counties in this case) are doing, staffers toss it together, backroom deals are made based on it, a dominant liberal leaning majority passes it, and the public swallows it.... until somebody challenges it in the courts.  Wouldn't it have been much easier (and less costly) to put personal & politically expedient agendas aside and openly & honestly vet the pros & cons of Obamacare before rushing full steam head to passage?

    Nancy Pelosi, what a waste of good air. And they call Ross narcisstic. This law must be repealed. I just saw Warph's thread on the "supreme court" ruling. Disgusting.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 28, 2012, 12:39:17 PM
   Nancy Pelosi, what a waste of good air. And they call Ross narcisstic. This law must be repealed. I just saw Warph's thread on the "supreme court" ruling. Disgusting.

I would generally agree... but with respect to the upholding of the Act, the majority put this where it should have been all along:  It IS a tax on the citizens.  

If you think our economy is a mess now, wait till the tx aspects of paying for this mess really kicks in.  The middle class will be crushed under the debt load.  Decisions will have to be made... food or health insurance/fines, home repairs or insurance/fines, college savings or insurance/fines, electric bill or insurance/fines, new tires or insurance fines... add your own.   And for those employed where the employer will be required to pay for insurance, the employer may opt for the less costly fines which leaves employees in the position of paying for health care out of already shrinking or stagnated wages.  They, too, may be faced with the above choices.  this is the way elitists & Marxists control the masses.  Keep em poor.

You've been had... politicians said it wasn't a tax... it is.  That was a lie!  Now we have a choice to make:  Reelect a liar and his congressional puppets who are also liars or clean house and replace the congress & presidency with a new crop.  Hopefully a crop that won't continue to rape the public.  For those who choose to keep the status quo, you deserve the government you get.

This also applies to other government giveaways like the Neighborhood Revitalization Plan and the politicians/bureaucrats who push such things on the public without a full vetting.  Especially when pre-passage manipulation of the rules indicate the program is geared to special interests.  Cornhusker Kickbacks anyone?

Has anyone came up with hearing dates for the Neighborhood Revitalization Plan?

Or is it going to be handled like the study that wasn't done?

Update:  She was against it... before she was for it... before she was unsure what to do about it... before she did nothing about it!

At the 8/27/2012 county commission meeting, the Neighborhood Revitalization Program was on the agenda... again.  Commissioner Hendricks said she thought Commissioner Ritz was right in his earlier objections about the plan start date (see my earlier post quoted below).  She made no motion on the matter after some discussion about how changing the date might upset some people who had already 'applied' for the nonexistent plan (including the giant new fish farm/RV park at 99 & 160) & had started construction.  One county employee was astute enough to inquire how anyone could apply for a program that didn't yet exist... good question!

Well, no consensus to change the date was reached.  This, in spite of adamant arguments by the Appraiser that no one had been made any promises regarding the tax rebate plan or their acceptance for participation in it and assurances by the county counselor that these folks could be 'grandfathered in' in some fashion if the date was changed.

Well to be 100% accurate, the Appraiser said that she hadn't promised anyone anything.  In all honesty, my gut tells me that the Appraiser was being totally honest.... she hadn't promised anyone anything.
???

As a side note, one of the 'applicants' whose 'application' was originally used to justify the 1/1/2012 plan start date, as I understand it, claimed to be totally unaware of their 'application' or involvement in this new plan nor had any county official talked with them about it... as recently as Thursday or Friday before this commission meeting (let alone the meeting referred to below)... but I could be wrong... I guess.  Speaking of fish & things that are beginning to smell of fish! :P

There were some other minor draft changes agreed to (no, not the $20,000 minimum investment to play), but those can wait for another day...

Side note:  Is anybody else getting the feeling that the 'minutes' we read in the newspaper or the unsigned minutes we see on the county website just don't quite paint the whole picture?  More fish?  I dunno.

Quote from: Patriot on June 25, 2012, 07:05:38 PM
Two of our county commissioners, Hendricks & Liebau, our economic development director and our county appraiser have been working feverishly to adopt a tax rebate neighborhood revitalization plan for Elk County.  Today's commission meeting, provided the answer to a couple of troubling questions.  Why was the open application start date in the new plan set to January 1, 2012?  Is it because the plan is being developed to serve some special interest?  Commissioner Ritz asked these very questions.  Here is a summary of the answers presented in the public meeting...

The appraiser provided the following:
1.  A former Enterprise Zone development incentive program was cancelled by the state last year.
2.  There was a citizen who, because of delays in construction, failed to qualify for incentives in that program before it closed.
3.  A 'replacement' incentive program (Neighborhood Revitalization Plan) was proposed locally.
4.  The proposed program has yet to be finalized by the county commission or approved by the state attorney general.
5.  Nothing in the plan was designed to provide special treatment to anyone.
6.  The proposed program was drafted & presented by our economic development director & our appraiser and they set the application start date in the new plan back to Jan 1, 2012 specifically so the person mentioned in 2 above could participate.
7.  There may have been other premature applications taken as well.


Read that date again... 1/1/2012.  Commissioner Ritz pointed out that it's darned difficult to apply for a program that hasn't been adopted or approved as required state law.  Ritz observed that the fact the date was admittedly set so the person in 2 above (and perhaps others) could participate & allowed to apply before the program existed and without paying the proposed application fee upon application made it appear the plan was, in fact, being structured to provide some special benefit to one or more persons.  In spite of the facts reported by the appraiser above & Ritz' observations, the appraiser vigorously defended her statement that the program had not been configured to benefit any particular person.

At the urging of Commissioners Hendricks & Liebau, Ritz moved to change the open application period start date to January 1, 2013.  Neither Commissioner Liebau nor Hendricks would second the motion.  The motion failed.  Apparently fair treatment of all our citizens did too.

Is this kind of back door special treatment that the citizens of Elk County deserve or expect?  Wouldn't it be more fair and equitable for the start date to begin AFTER the program has been clearly presented to the public and legally adopted & approved.  Let's hope the public can see the game being played, makes their distaste for such things in Elk County well known, and calls for change.


Next time we'll look at how this tax rebate program is to be funded and who is really paying for it.

Grandfather clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
Grandfather clause is a situation in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations, while a new rule will apply to all future situations. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied.

There is no old rules involved with this New Proposed Program, so how can you grandfather something in?
You can't!
You can lie!
You can cheat!
But you just can't grandfather-in something that does not exist.

And it appears to me that is exactly what they are trying to do by back dating the program.
Which indicates to me to some behind the court house dealings.

Show me otherwise?

Where are the morals and ethics?

Quote from: Patriot on February 29, 2012, 10:32:26 PM
...I wonder... how many average citizens in Elk County will be able to afford to build & take advantage of this new government program..... I'm sure the owners of the old bank building in Howard, operators of trail ride operations or RV parks/fish farms will be able to....

Well by golly!  Darned if the RV park/fish farm wasn't mentioned at a recent commission meeting as an 'applicant' for the (as yet non-existent) program.  Now who didn't see that coming down the pike.  Any interest in any of the other backroom promises made over this deal?

 ;D Be careful Pat, you're talking to yourself. ;D

      Hardly , take a look at the number of reads and who's viewing the page.  ::)

Quote from: Bullwinkle on September 13, 2012, 03:02:57 PM
      Hardly , take a look at the number of reads and who's viewing the page.  ::)

But, but, but.... facts don't matter!  Didn't you get the memo.  There were 5... or was it 6... or maybe 7 folks sending the PMs.  LOL

Well... in any case, elections are coming soon.

Nah, ya missed the joke. He copied his own post and then commented on it...He was commenting on his own comment...talking to himself. Oh, never mind! :( 

Quote from: Diane Amberg on September 13, 2012, 03:11:15 PM
Nah, ya missed the joke. He copied his own post and then commented on it...He was commenting on his own comment...talking to himself. Oh, never mind! :( 

No joke! He was talking with someone of intellegence! LOL

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

But, Patriot being born and raised here is the number one qualifaction from what I heard at the "Meet and Greet the Candidates".

However, those birthers better be careful because there appears to be more and more outsiders arriving everyday or two.

I don't think the birthers of Elk County can produce fast enough to grow the population, not as fast as some of them are leaving anyway. Or equal to the number of outsiders moving in.

Only time will tell.

       Now her grin key is stuck. Baaaad computer !  :laugh:

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

       Oh it wasn't stuck, she was trying to draw a picture of the Cheshire cat.  :o :o :o :o

Quote from: Bullwinkle on September 13, 2012, 04:06:14 PM
      Now her grin key is stuck. Baaaad computer !  :laugh:

Just when I thought the laughter was over....  (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/265.gif)

       Haven't had a laugh like this in a coon's age.

     Great emoticon !

Quote from: Wilma on March 01, 2012, 08:10:51 AM
Patriot, when are you going to stop sneering at our public officials and run for public office yourself?  You think you know so much more about this county then two of our native citizens do?

Wilma does being bred, born and raised in Elk County qualify a person as a good politician?

Where does common sense and the public concerns come into to the arena?