Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result

[Doug.38PR]

Yesterday i loaded a used Remington brass cartridge with 6.0 gr of Unique and seated a Sierra JHP .429 bullet to tge sane seating as I do 200 gr hardcast lead (.427) to make sure it fit into my new Uberti 1873 carbine chamber.  The load was taken from a mild low end .44 Spl load data in my reloading manual.  Fed the round in the loading gate, cycled the lever, it went into battery just fine.   Aimed and fired.  Wasn’t anything earthshattering.  About like 8.2 gr of unique under 200 gr hard-cast.  Hit well.  Felt good.   Then i tried to eject.   It was stuck.  Had to give it a little force and found the case had ruptured and separated towards the base.  The front part of the cartridge is still in the gun and I’ trying to get it out.  Broke down the gun as best i could (i’ve got a 200 gr cartridge in the elevator that i cant get out but i have removed it from the extractor and lowered the elevator enough to get in there and try to get the broken case out.  I tried pulling a bore snake through to see if it would yank it out.  No go. 

Needless to sayi wont be doing this again until i understand what went wrong exactly.  Either there was excessive headspace (it was a very mild loading) or the thin walls of the Remington brass after being used for the 3rd time finally gave.

[Roscoe]

Was that 44 Special load for 240 gr jacketed or for 200 gr lead? The case obviously yielded to more pressure than it could stand. Obviously you need to be using 44-40 data that matches your bullets. Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels.

[Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to Roscoe

Loading/Reloading information does not SAFELY transfer from one cartridge to another.  There is also a vast difference between LEAD bullets and JHP.  You've just found that out.  Obviously, you need to read the COMPLETE reloading manual rather than just skipping to the tables.

Now, I'd suggest you contact Brownells for a "stuck case remover" so you can get the remnant of the case out without damaging the bore or the chamber.

[Advertising]

[Dave T]

DITTO to what Rosco and Coffinmaker said. You're lucky you didn't damage the gun.

As for the stuck partial case, try running a 45 brass brush through from the muzzle. It might be tight enough to grab the section of brass and push it out. I did this with a blown head that left a ring of 45 ACP brass in a friend's 1911 chamber. I used a .458 rifle brush and pushed it through from the muzzle and it worked. Worth a try.

Dave

[Johnson Barr]

I have been successful in removing broken shell cases by driving a cap and ball pure lead round ball of the appropriate diameter (in you're situation try a .452") from the muzzle end of the barrel down to the chamber. Nine time out of ten the round ball will pickup the broken case mouth and push it out through the chamber.  

[Tascosa Joe]

Then there was my 38-40 that had a separated case that OK Tom had to get a chamber reamer and cut it out.  I was shooting the same 38-40 load that I had been using for 10 years or so.

[Doug.38PR]

Was that 44 Special load for 240 gr jacketed or for 200 gr lead? The case obviously yielded to more pressure than it could stand. Obviously you need to be using 44-40 data that matches your bullets. Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels.

It was 240 gr.  On the low end of starting loads

This thing is pretty tight in therr.  Bristle brisges, patches on spear plug cleaners, bore brushes are not even budging it.  They just pass right through out the breech.  Midway doesnt have shell extractors for 44-40 anymore.

[Doug.38PR]

BLEEP!  Im going to have to take this to a gunsmith.  Not just because of the shell  but because i cant get the dann rifle completeky apart  or even back together.  Nothing is as easy as these brownells videos claim.  Half the screws are easily stripped because some a-hole tightened them too much.  The lever screw comes halfway out until it just turns endlessly.  I tapped it a little from the other side snd now the swivel of the lever is tight and i cant get tge screw to drive back in.  (The videos it just comes right out).

[Professor Marvel]

My Good Doug -

my Lyman 49th edition only  lists loads for 200 gr jacket, 200 gr lead and 205gr lead in  .44-40
my Lee 2nd edition ( 2013) also does not list any loads for 240 gr jacketed bullet for 44-40.

Hogdens website only lists 200 gr lead bullet loads.
Hornady website only lists the 205gr jacketed flatpoint.
Alliant only list a max load, with the 200gr lead bullet.

In fact, I cannot find any professional published data for the 240gr jacketed bullet in 44-40 .

Sorry to her of your problem, but You have now experienced first-hand the problems that can arise when
one strays from published tested loads, and tries to extrapolate from a different cartridge of a different volume.

also, it might be a good idea to pull the bullets of any remaining and re-wiegh the charges... just in case...

yhs
prof marvel

[Abilene]

BLEEP!  Im going to have to take this to a gunsmith.  Not just because of the shell  but because i cant get the dann rifle completeky apart  or even back together.  Nothing is as easy as these brownells videos claim.  Half the screws are easily stripped because some a-hole tightened them too much.  The lever screw comes halfway out until it just turns endlessly.  I tapped it a little from the other side snd now the swivel of the lever is tight and i cant get tge screw to drive back in.  (The videos it just comes right out).

The carrier and lever springs bear against the lever and should be loosened (the two screws on bottom of the frame behind the carrier) before attempting to remove or install the lever pivot screw. 

[Professor Marvel]

The carrier and lever springs bear against the lever and should be loosened (the two screws on bottom of the frame behind the carrier) before attempting to remove or install the lever pivot screw. 

Thanks Abilene! I will add that to my notes, since I will probably jam up my 1866 sometime....

yhs
prof marvel

[Baltimore Ed]

While I don't remember using it on my Uberti an impact driver is a very useful tool to break those gorilla tight screws loose. Had to remove the bayonet lug /heat shield from my Norinco trench gun in order to mod it to hold 6 rds. Even with a Brownells big screwdriver bit kit and a perfect fitting bit one of the screws chipped. Using an impact driver it broke loose. And don't forget the penetrating fluid.

[OD#3]

I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers here, but the tone of many of the replies to Doug's problem seem uncomfortably condescending.  If I were Doug, I'd be reluctant to post about any more of my reloading foibles here.  And while it is, indeed, risky to stray from published loads and choose instead to extrapolate one's data from other cartridges, Doug's load is not one I would have expected trouble out of. 

Doug, if you haven't already boogered up the screws beyond usefulness, select a well-fitting, hollow-ground screwdriver.  Holding it as vertically as you can in the screw slots, with a good deal of body weight on it, give the screwdriver a sudden, sharp twist.  That will often break those Uberti screws loose with an audible crack.  As Abilene said, the carrier and lever spring screws have to be loosened in order to remove the tension on the lever pivot screw.  Once you get those loosened, disassembly will be more or less intuitive. 

If you absolutely can't get those screws to loosen, and you have your sideplates off, you can usually just pry the tips of the springs sideways off of where they contact the cam lobes on the lever and carrier arm.  They'll be under tension, and you might scratch something, but it is a way to get the thing disassembled.  The spring screws will often be easier to loosen once you've done this.

I would not encourage you or anyone to stray from the load data like you did, and your mishap is anecdotal evidence as to why.  But I'm not entirely convinced that your load was the sole culprit, and I can't call you foolhardy for thinking that your load would be safe.  You violated a rule of reloading.  And whether your load was the proximate cause of your trouble or not, the results appear to support and to reinforce the rule and provide a useful anecdote for others.  However, I have seen the same logic that you applied to working up your load suggested by many others in response to reloading questions on other forums, and I can certainly understand why you thought 6.0 gr. of Unique under a 240 gr. JHP would be safe.       

[Professor Marvel]

I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers here, but the tone of many of the replies to Doug's problem seem uncomfortably condescending. 

No ruffling.

Doug is actually rather brave and humble to post his problem and probable error.
Asking questions is how you learn.
So is learning from your mistakes.
Actually he is getting a rather gentle treatment, compared to what I used to get (the Drill Sergeant method)
how would you prefer I tell someone they screwed up?

If I were Doug, I'd be reluctant to post about any more of my reloading foibles here.  And while it is, indeed, risky to stray from published loads and choose instead to extrapolate one's data from other cartridges, Doug's load is not one I would have expected trouble out of. 

"normally" I might agree, but the problem here has many levels

- a less experienced reloader ( we have all been there)
- strayed from published loads ( as a beginner I did too, had to drive casings from a cylinder, then stared at the flattened primers!)
- used a heavier, jacketed bullet for which no one published a load!  There must be a reason for that, no?
- extrapolated a starting load from a different, smaller, straight-wall cartridge, with no experience at exgtrapolating loads and no instrumentation- ie: chrony and pressure transducers.

As Roscoe and said
"Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels."

the big issues are
- the differences in pressure between a 200 gr lead bullet and a 240 gr jacketed bullet.
     I fully expect the reason that there are no published loads for such heavier jacketed bullets are the pressure problems.

- the difference in volume between the .44 spcl and the .44-40
    volume changes can lead to unexpected results.
    For example, I have been experimenting with low velocity RB loads aka, "cat sneeze" loads. in .38 spcl, and have found
    surprisingly different velocities depending upon how deeply I seat the ball and amount and style of crimp. I have ceased
    experiments until I can lay my hands on pressure sensing gear.

Doug, if you haven't already boogered up the screws beyond usefulness, select a well-fitting, hollow-ground screwdriver.  Holding it as vertically as you can in the screw slots, with a good deal of body weight on it, give the screwdriver a sudden, sharp twist.  That will often break those Uberti screws loose with an audible crack.  As Abilene said, the carrier and lever spring screws have to be loosened in order to remove the tension on the lever pivot screw.  Once you get those loosened, disassembly will be more or less intuitive. 

If you absolutely can't get those screws to loosen, and you have your sideplates off, you can usually just pry the tips of the springs sideways off of where they contact the cam lobes on the lever and carrier arm.  They'll be under tension, and you might scratch something, but it is a way to get the thing disassembled.  The spring screws will often be easier to loosen once you've done this.

Very good advice, thanks for for that, as I fully expect to be in a similar position some time in the future!

Fortunately Doug has come forward and hopefully we can all learn from his experiences.

yhs
prof marvel

[Roscoe]

I found a 44-40 load for Unique and a 240 gr bullet in Alliant data, but it was for lead and allowed even a little more than the 6.0 gr used here. However, I expect the problem here is the amount of pressure it takes to move a 240 gr JACKETED bullet from the case, given the 44-40's thin case wall. It was simply an unproven load. One of the lessons then is to consider lead and jacketed or well plated bullets to be quite different components.

[OD#3]

I've never sectioned a 44-40 case before, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.  But I would expect that modern cases thicken plenty towards the head, which was where Doug said his case separated.  I don't know how much they thicken, but I would expect them to be about equal to a .44 Special in thickness near the head.  Much is made of the thin 44-40 case walls, but doesn't that really just apply to the neck and possibly the shoulder only?  To get a good seal, that's all you need, really.  The reason I ask is that this has bugged me all night (I worked night shift last night). 

If I'd been in Doug's shoes and was willing to stray from published loads, my reasoning would have gone thusly:

1.  I can't find any data for .44-40 and a 240 gr JHP, but here's a mild .44 Special load that calls for 6.0 gr. Unique under that bullet.
2.  Listed pressures for this load in .44 Special are lower than max .44-40 pressures.
3.  C.O.L. for this load in .44 Special is shorter than the maximum C.O.L. on the .44-40, and the .44-40 case is wider as well.
4.  The wider .44-40 case combined with a longer C.O.L. with this load will yield even lower pressure with the .44-40 than with a .44
     Special, because my case volume will be greater.
5.  There is no metallurgical differences between .44 Special Uberti and a .44-40 Uberti.

And I would have forged ahead with what I thought was a good idea at the time. 

I'm very sorry that happened to you, Doug.  How's the broken shell extraction coming?

[Bunk]

To verify my remarks my experience is I have been reloading since the days of FA70 primers and  HiVel #2 powders. I learned from a friend that had been reloading forever. His advice which I have repeated so many time I feel like a stuck record is

GET A GOOD RELOADING MANUAL AND FOLLOW IT!

 Unless you are equipped with a complete ballistics laboratory complete with a pressure gun just do what trained and equipped technicians have proved to be the safe limits with a certain caliber, projectile and powder.

Or you may opt to do your own experimentation and blow up a gun or become an example of a winner of the Darwin award and have an EMS first responder pick up as much as possible of you with a stick and spoon so you can be buried in a closed shoe box.

In short
GET THE BOOK AND READ THE F@#$%^G THING!

Yr’ (tired of repeating myself) Obt’ Svt’
Bunk

[greyhawk]

Stuck shell in 44/40
1) do not  - repeat - DO NOT !!! - put anything harder than brass in that chamber - you will stuff it - this I guarantee
2) get a piece of 1/8th brass brazing rod - bend the end a little and grind,cut it to a point like a small chisel end - drive the chisel end in between the chamber wall and the broken case wall - go full length of the case - or until it bulges inwards enough to slip out
This is an easy safe way to get out a broken case and will shift even the toughest one
--how do I know this ? - yup been thar done it - hotrodding a loose 44/40 with JHP boolits and throwaway twinflashole cases that I bodgy reloaded - most of us has done stuff we thought at the time was safe and later figured was maybe just a little dumb.

The best reason I can think of to NOT use 240 grain boolits in a model 73 ..44/40 ? if they copied the original slowish twist those pills wont stabilise worth a damn at normal velocity --- been thar done that too - 225 grain CBE lead slug will not stabilise in my 'berti 66 past aboot 75 yards with blackpowder ------(its an old uberti - maybe they changed that later) -- this is a potential problem with the big lube boolits too .

[Bunk]

Since you have already buggered the gun and based on the “you can’t fall off the floor” principle you might try driving a soft lead plug down the muzzle to the chamber mouth. Then fill the chamber with chamber casting material (a low temperature melting point alloy) and try then driving the whole thing out. Hopefully the alloy will catch the fragment and pull it out.
It can’t hurt and the worst case scenario is you get a good profile of the problem.
Good luck and you have gained experience which is the thing you get right after you needed it.
Regards
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

OK.  I was short with the OP and not nice.  I meant it that way.  My feathers are not in the slightest ruffled.......

Incipient Case Head Separation can happen to anyone at any time with any caliber without an overpressure load.  All you need is a weak or slightly stretched case.  Manufacturing error.  Oversize chamber.  Lots of possibilities.  In this particular instance, the case had help to separate.  Lots of "HELP." 

When we reload, we are playing with explosives.  The best reloading manuals have chapters of information directed at keeping new folks from doing something really seriously wrong.  Those WRONG things can not only cost an expensive gun.  Those WRONG things can cost human BODY PARTS that can't be replaced.

If my comments embarrass someone badly enough they go back to basic and LEARN ....... I consider it successful.  Trust me.  Had the individual brought this rifle into my shop for fixit, I would have been very LOUD with my scolding.  Condescending??  You betcha.

Oh Yea .....  PLUS ONE to Bunk's last.