Early signs of excess pressure in C&B revolvers. . .

[Lars]

Remington Kid,

My experience with 777 FFG and Pyrodex-P is that I need to decrease the volume of 777 powder roughly 15% to get the same appearent recoil and down range performance. No chrono, so no velocity data. SO, 30 grains/35 grains is about 14% reduction. In BP shotshells I went from volume of powder from 1,0 oz dipper to that from 7/8 dipper, which is 12,5% decrease. This is pretty much in line with Hodgdon's claiming that 777 is about 15% more powerful, volume-for-volume than Pyrodex.

For a few shots from a C&B, there might not be much difference in "best" group size from one one powder to the next , assuming enough quality lube and balls that fit the bore properly. Once I had the chambers reamed to bore size or larger, most any decent load gave under 3,0 inch 5-shot groups at 25 yards with my Remington, starting with clean bore and chambers. The really good loads gave under 2,0 inch groups at 25 and under 4,0 inch at 50 yards (wish my eyes were still that good!!). The best loads would do that for at least a few cylinder's full. The 3rd Model Dragoon would put 3-4 shots in such nice groups but the next two would be off a couple of inches or so. No amount of lube seemed to help with the Dragoon. For small game hunting, I carried a pistol rod, some patches and a small bottle of Windex and cleaned the fired chambers and bore every 2-3 shots. After a while, I just took the Remington, then later a Ruger.

Lars

[Remington Kid]

Lars, It sounds like your loads are about equal to what I have read and heard about the Pyrodex and 777.
For cleaning the barrel and chamber I still just use a spit patch and then a dry patch and it works well in the field. Also carry an extra cylinder on my belt ready to go. If I'm going to spend the day just fooling around and shooting things like the dangerous PINE CONES we have around here I'll carry my possiables bag with paper bullets, extra caps in my capper, patches, lube and got to take along some peanut butter crackers
For a good cleaning I use the Windex that I buy at the Dollar store. A big bottle cost me a $1.50 and last a long time. It also works great on the brass trigger guard. Then I use my compressor and blow dry everything and then spray with WD-40 and dry and lube everyting but the cylinder chambers. I just dry them well and the nipples with pipe cleaners and I'm ready to reload.

[Lars]

Yes, there are moderate, middle of the road Pyrodex and 777 FFG loadings for the Remington replicas made of good steel. Probably a rather lower one for brass framed Remington replicas. An even lower one for brass framed Colt-style, something like Mason Stillwell uses.

Dragoons and espically Walkers seem to bring out the "loadem up full" guys. From what I see, including my own experience, most Walkers and Dragoons will not handle loads much above those of a Remington made of good steel. I know I was not much impressed with the design and manufacturing methods used on mine. Many years ago I knew someone that took selected Walker replicas -- forgot who made them -- and modified/strengthened them to be quite good short range deer guns for some folks hunting on their own land. I think I recall that he used custom conicals and rather large powder charges. I have a vague recollection that he redid the heat treatment and casehardening.

Lars

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[Remington Kid]

Lars, Your right about the replicas not being up to par but for what we pay they really arent to bad. It's my understanding that Pietta replaced all there machinery a year or so ago and they are turning out some good revolvers now. That diesn't mean that the metal or steel used is better but I guess time will tell.
I talked to Dick tonight and he is sending me some samples of his bullets to try in my Remington .44. They sure look good but I'll have to see how they load for me.
Have you tried any of these in your Remingtons?

[Lars]

Nope, I stick to round  balls in C&Bs. I have shot conicals now and then but never had a need for more than the round balls will do.

I also do not cast bullets, having had enough of that as a kid, long, long ago.

I do hear that the Piettas are better made now than then. What I have always heard is that they already had decent steel and that the steel in the frames is thicker than in some other Remington replicas.

Yes, they are low priced. When I got mine in the late 1990s, I had to almost totally rebuild them. I got them from Cabalas. I  ended up getting a full set of replacement innards from Cabalas free. Interesting, the replacement parts were much better finished than the original ones. At this point, I think I am on my 2-4th set of innards like pawls, triggers, hammers, springs, bolts, cylinder pins, etc. Only the barrels, frames, grips and loading levers are original.

Lars

[Remington Kid]

Dont remember what year I bought mine from Cabelas but it did take a little work to get them tuned just right I bought extra cylinders and the replacemnt kits for both of them.They still have all the original parts except for the nipples, I replaced them once.
I did harden the hammer's and a lot of polishing on all the parts and it took a little bit to get the timeing right.  Chamfered the cylinders and the loading ramp, polished the stars on the back of the cylinders as well as the cylinder pin. Had to flatten the striking surface of both hammers to hit the cap squarly.Now I don't believe that anyone could ask for two better revolvers or a smoother and cleaner action on either one of them.

[jiminy criquet]

Perhaps I can be of assistance, as I have one of the huge ASM Colt Walker revolvers (circa 1970's) that I have 'shot loose', and it is displaying signs of high pressure(s).  I accomplished this stupid act approx 15 years or so ago by repeatedly shooting the revolver with full chambers of Pyrodex 'P' powder.  ((The resulting cannon 'boom' is a sight to behold (and hold!) however...so I have no regrets on that regard.))

1) The cylinder pin has a noticeable wobble when the barrel and cylinder are removed. (very evident)

2) The barrel wedge is getting a noticeable depression on the cylinder facing side. (slightly evident)

3) The barrel wedge slot (on the barrel) is deforming on the cylinder facing side. (very evident)

4) The barrel/frame mating point now has about a 1/16" of 'slop' or 'play' in it. (very evident)

5) And for the Walker revolvers, the easiet way to tell that the revolver is 'overcharged' with powder is that the loading lever drops down from the recoil when the pistol is fired.

(This Walker never did ever 'cock itself' from recoil, no matter how much powder was stuffed into it.)

I don't remember what the exact weight of the charge was, as it was so long ago, but I seem to remember it being in the upper 40's grains range...approaching 50 grains of powder or so.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot this revolver again, as there is no fear of the cylinder exploding or anything like that...I just wouldn't shoot it with any more than 30 grains or so of Pyrodex  for fear of damaging it any further.  Pretty strong revolver, actually ...the original 'Magnum'.  If you get a chance to lay your hands on one at a decent price, I would suggest you buy it.  You won't regret it.  Just to look at and hold one of these massive pieces of history is worth the price, IMHO

(By the way, the load was a .451 round ball with the chambers plugged with CVA grease patch.)

[Tommy tornado]

I  consider THAT a sign of excess pressure in a C&B revolver.  The gun itself was not even challenged.

DD-DLoS

I have read in the Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replicas <> A Collector’s & Shooters Guide that the Ruger Old Army was test fired with smokeless powder (not that I would try that). 

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, Walt Kirst aka Sam'l Remington makes a very fine Kirst Konverter cartridge cylinder for the Ruger Old Army.  I have one and so does my sidekick.  They're chambered for 45 Colt.  I shoot a compressed load of FFFg behind a PRS Big Lube^tm boolit.  The gun shoots very well with this rig.  Fact is, in my hands it's more accurate than the same gun with the original Ruger C&B cylinder.  Go figure.

Anyway, Walt says it's for Black Powder only.  He advises against shooting Heathen Smokeyless Fad powder ammo with it.  All that said, it handles any factory 45 Colt ammo I've found with ease.  The ROA is a big powerful strong modern gun built to Ruger standards.  I won't advise it either, but if you MUST shoot strong loads out of a C&B, the ROA with the Kirst Konverter is the way to go.

Heck Lars, I'll bet it'll even handle all the 777 or Swis ya kin pack in.

DD-DLoS

[Lars]

I won't advise it either, but if you MUST shoot strong loads out of a C&B, the ROA with the Kirst Konverter is the way to go.
DD-DLoS

Hummmm, seems to me any C&B with a cartridge converter is no longer a C&B. That is a great way to spend lotsa money to get a second rate cartridge revolver. I bought a R&D 45 Colt cartridge converter for one of my New Model Remingtons many years ago, when they first came out. Never was impressed enough with such rigs to buy a second converter. Even less impressed with the Kirst converters. Not that the R&D and Kirst don't work well, just that a well tuned C&B is just so much simpler to use. And ya don't have to load up ammo when you get home.

I do agree that if one wants a powerful C&B, a Ruger Old Army with as much of some faster powder, say Swiss FFFG or 777 FFFG, as will still give excellent accuracy under a round ball is the easiest way to go. Next is probably a Rogers & Spenser (although a good Rogers & Spencer gives up little if anything to a Ruger OA as regards function and accuracy), followed by a Peitta New Model Army that has had the necessary gunsmithing work done (minimum work is reaming of chambers for both R&S and Peitta NMA), followed by a dragoon with the necessary remedial gunsmithing done (MUCH more work).

Lars

[Tommy tornado]

When I was in the N-SSA, I heard a good quote from the late Tom Ball.  "Only god could acuarize a top-strapless colt."  Those guys made me a believer in a Rodgers and Spencer followed by a Remington.  They don't shoot the Ruger in the N-SSA but if it was around during the Civil War, (which Capt. George Baylor will try to make you believe) the Ruger would have been top dog.

[Buffalow Red]

my 1 st pietta is about 15 years old brass frame 44 12" barrel, allways shot lose pyrodex 20-25g  3fff 451 rb. for 14years of service= 300 rounds.  when i started useing it in cas i got pydrodex pellets 30g for quicker reloads. it was more acurate, had a lot more recoil after about 250 rounds 2 matches of this load the cly pin got a shear cut line at the front of the cly contact area on the pin. i had to use a bastard file on it, it didnt want to pull out  due to the ridge. allso when installing the pin in the frame with out the cly it misses the back hole about 1/2 hole size didnt used to do this. the triger stops against the brass framebottem under the bottem strap , it is (triger stop) poking through the brass frames top part of the lower strap.
well im still shooting it only now with 20-22 g of goex 2ff but if any one has a steel frame to part with let me know after 15 years i cant give up 12" on acceracy. even now 30g is more acurate at 30 yards but i think the brass is fading fast?

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   My first Rem .44 NM was being sold by Lyman {!} a "few years ago". I've done great shooting with it using between 30 & 40 gr. Pyrodex P, although I don't use Pyrodex anymore. I had bought a second hand ASM Walker {before I knew what to look for} that has barrel wedge damage to the cylinder pin, making barrel removal a bear. The few times I took it out, I piled the FFFg into the chambers {55 - 60gr}, because that's what a Walker was for: hellfire & thunderous knock-out punches! It's a shame that we have to coddle these beasts, which were designed for massive charges, because of deficient metallurgy. I must concede that the original Walkers were probably only fed FFg, and if I must, so shall I. It's still tight and shootable, but I have no desire to ruin it with FFFg.
   Do any of you own / shoot the LeMats? Talk about thin Cylinder walls! I'm definitely keeping the charges at recommended levels!
   By The Way, is there a source for Replacement Cylinder Pins? I would also like to replace the Cylinder, which has cosmetic scuffing.

   Be Well, All!

         M.T.Marfield:.
            4-29-07

[Tommy tornado]

   Greetings!

  I must concede that the original Walkers were probably only fed FFg, and if I must, so shall I. It's still tight and shootable, but I have no desire to ruin it with FFFg.
      Be Well, All!

         M.T.Marfield:.
            4-29-07

Apparently the Iron cylinders on original Walkers couldn't stand up to 60 grains of 2fg powder either, as there are documented cases of the cylinders blowing up.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings, T-Tornado!

   Yes, I recall reading that, in Haven & Belden? Perhaps a manufacturer will take the bigger Colt replicas more seriously, and give us shooters the appropriate metallurgy.
   Can it be done?

   Be Well, All!

       M.T.Marfield:.
          4-30-07

[will52100]

I frequently shoot a pair of Uberti Walkers with 50 grain loads.  I used to shoot 60 grain loads till I noticed I wasn't realy gaining anything velocity wise.  I use 3F powder.  The cylinder arbor is screwed into the frame and pined between the threads to keep it tight.  I had one that aparently the pin wasn't properly set and was backing out under recoil.  I took the arobor out and cleaned and locktighted it and replaced the pin and have had no trouble what so ever.  That said if they do wear out on me I didn't buy magnums to shoot mouse fart loads.  I want light loads and recoil I break the navies out, I've got a pair that have well over 5000 rounds through each.  The heart of the colt open top is the fit of the arbor to the barrel.  I'm not a big fan of Pietta but from what I've seen there better than the Ubertis on that point.  The arbor is suposed to bottom out against the end of the hole in the barrel and everything be locked up square.  The lack of real case harding may also lead to premature failure.  The modern steels are a lot better than the orginals, but the orginals used real case harding on criticle parts and the heat treat on the internals of most replicas suck.  Everyone I've had I've had to do some work.  None have shown any signs of excessive pressure with real black powder and soft lead round balls.  I do wish that colt would bring out a line of 4th generation black powder guns along the quality of there second generation guns.

Also the comment about inaccurate opentops is a falicy, the most accurate hand gun I've ever shot, and that includes colt gold cup autos, browning high powers, and military match grade pistols, is a 60' RM in 44 colt.  That said it sometimes takes a bit of effort to get them to shoot well.

[Noz]

Back to the original question. I think the best symptom of excessive Pressure/load level in a C&B revolver is when the loading lever unlatches upon firing. Too much powder and too much recoil for the machine.

[Cincinnati Slim]

Howdy Y'all,

I have both Colt and Remmie style Pietta C&B revolvers. Caint really agree with the thing about the Colts not being accurate. Got a "Old Silver" .44 1851 that's a mighty fine shooter. I will allow how the Remington's sights are far easier to use than the Colt's. I've put Remmie style dovetail mounted front sights on my Colts and that really helps a lot. I use a .454 ball and a wonder wad and 30Gr. is really all I can fit into a Colt cylinder. I can get 35Gr. into the Remmie using the same ball and wad but I think I'm just making more smoke. Usually use a 32 Gr. spout which actually throws 30 Gr. for both. Smaller loads just don't produce as good groups. For Tripple Seven I use a 30Gr. spout that actually throws about 28-27 Gr. and the results are pretty much identical in accuracy, recoil, noise and smoke. Of course the black powder SMELLS better...

Don't know about the Walkers or Rugers. I've got a pretty standardized load now which works well in both. I also use a Dick Dastardly cylinder loader. Produces Much more consistent results than using the revolver's loading lever Also saves wear on the revolver. I think this business of streched arbors and deformed wedge slots may be from the leverage of the loading lever as much as powder pressure. I've bent loading levers and busted things before I got the cylinder loader.

Just my two cents, Happy Trails,

Slim

[will52100]

I don't believe the loading leaver droping is an accurate indicator eigther, I've seen a lot of guns that were otherwise well made with a crappy loading leaver fit.  Heck my walkers don't drop there's with full 60 grain charges after I fit them a bit better.

[Tommy tornado]

I don't believe the loading leaver droping is an accurate indicator eigther, I've seen a lot of guns that were otherwise well made with a crappy loading leaver fit.  Heck my walkers don't drop there's with full 60 grain charges after I fit them a bit better.

That or you have broken the lever spring.  This happened to me on my abused Navy from Dixie Gun Works.  I played with it like a little kid when I first bought it.  I used to slam the loading lever back into its slot without much thought and eventually broke it.  And this didn't happen from shooting full cylinders (about 25 grains) of 3fg Goex and Swiss out of it.  Speaking of which I did see a gentlemen shoot loose a Smith Carbine shooting 35 grains of Swiss 3fg.  He basically wore out the top strap and it wouldn't stay closed upon firing.