Black Powder Substitute in 44wcf ???

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Has anyone worked with these , and do they work . I have worked with American Pioneer Powder   Goex Pinacle they are easy clean up and you can use smokeless bullets with them . But they were not real consistent as far as velocities . Has anyone used any triple 7 . Wanting to produce 1300 fps out of a 24 inch rifle , will it do it .

[Marshal Deadwood]

Rowdy, the closest I can come to help here is that I've shot Triple 7 in cap and ball'ers. Does rather well while you are 'getting with it'. I found after it cooled to be harder and more gritty. Softens right up with warm water for cleaning and seems less dirty to clean,,but the harder , more gritty effect it 'may' have in a rife concerns me. But, I've just shot Triple 7 plinking around out back and not a controlled ,,or even noted,,experiment. So,,I fear I'm not much help.

I DO use Triple 7 in my inline muzzle-loader...but that's rarely multiple shots and it's a totally different beast. So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Marshal Deadwood

[Judah]

I loaded a batch up with 40 gr. T7 and a 200 gr. bullet. Didn't chrono them, but they were hot- too hot for cowboy shooting as they consistently knocked over targets

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[wildman1]

I have tried Pyrodex and 777 in muzzleloaders and 777 in 45/70. I just couldn't get consistency thru the chronograph or good groups on targets. WM

[w44wcf]

Rowdy,
I did work with 777 FFG, Pyrodex RS, and Clean Shot(renamed APP) awhile back.  I found that 777 FFG and Pyrodex RS performed pretty well in the 44 W.C.F. The type of bullet did make a difference in accuracy though.

My results with Clean Shot were not that great (velocity variations of over 100 f.p.s. and so, so accuracy). Also, I could not get more than 1,200 f.p.s. with a compressed load.

777 FFG & Pyrodex RS

With the Magma 200 that I used mostly for smokeless at that time, for whatever reason, groups were almost 3X larger than those printed with the old standby 427098.

50 yard 5 shot groups with the 427098 ran 1.1" - 1.5"    while the Magma did 3 - 4".

Anyway, with the 427098 (215 grs.) 23 grs. by weight 777 FFG gave the following velocities in my 73's barrel  (21"):  

with a WLP primer ...... 1280/1273/1263/1287/1286  average 1,273 f.p.s.
with a 155 primer ....... 1312/1323/1294/1306/1316  average 1,310 f.p.s.
155 - Federal Large Pistol Magnum

with Pyrodex RS .... 27 grs. by weight:
with a WLP primer ......1239/1242/1275/1246/1244/1255/1248/1226/1268/1233 average 1,248 f.p.s.

In a 24" barrel average velocity would likely be 30 f.p.s. higher....or thereabouts.

Between the two, I would opt for Pyrodex. It was a bit more consistant and I did not experience any throat leading as I did with 777 FFG.

Either is more corrosive than b.p. so make sure you clean the barrel very well the same day.

w44wcf

[Rowdy Fulcher]

W44wcf
Thanks for the data on the triple 7 I have loaded a few rounds to shoot over the chronie . Wanting for the upper 12's to 1300 fps range . Hope this will work for another choice to hunt with . Hope we can help find the best choice for all the different needs .
We know that some shooters will only shoot smokeless , that's ok .We know that some will only shoot Black , and others will play with the subs . But they are all looking for a round to hunt with that is accurate and with enough energy to do the job efficiently .

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Today I was able to try a few of the subs . I shot the APP and it was pretty sad ,groups were as with a shotgun . The Goex Pinacle was about the same and the velocities on both powders were up and down . The highest was only 995 and that was almost a full case of powder .
Next was the Triple 7 and it came in at 1250 fps range and was fairly accurate . I loaded 22.5 grains by weight . I fired one round from my smoke wagon and yes it was a hand full but what would you want to carry for a hunting handgun
The Triple 7 was fairly clean , after 10 rounds I could still see the rifling , BUT it wasn't as clean as the Swiss after 10 rounds . 

[sail32]

Over in CanadianGunNutz.com, (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=771613 )
There is an post by Win 38-55, who is using 17.7 grains of 5744 and a pinch of cotton between the powder and bullet. Resulting in approximately 1300 fps and 2 inch groups.
You will have to log in to see the post.

[w44wcf]

sail32,
38-55 (KirkD) has also recently done some work with the 44-40 using cotton as a filler.
I invited him to join this forum. Hopefully he does and will share more great information about reloading the 44-40 to equal the original cartridge ballistics.

w44wcf 

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Has anyone worked with black mag , and can you buy it now What about the buckhorn 209 I priced a can of that and it was $31 a bottle and I think it only had 10 oz.
Didn't work with the Pyrodex it was notorious for corrosion . 

[w44wcf]

Rowdy,
I have read were Blackhorn is more of a smokeless powder than b.p. and it is expensive as you said.
Black Mag is, unfortunately, out of business. It was a bit on the expensive side as well.

The newest... Alliant Black MZ,  is said to be repackaged  APP according to one report that I read.
 
Of all the subs I have tried, I do like Pyrodex the best.  No throat leading like with 777 (at least in my rifle) and very good accuracy. It even smells a bit like b.p.     Just make sure that the firearm is cleaned the same day it is used.   Sometime's I cheat and shoot smokeless or b.p. afterwards....that cleans the Pyrodex fouling out quite nicely....

w44wcf 

[Grapeshot]

I got a deal on two cases of Pinacle which I use in all of my .44 WCF rifles and in my .45 Schofield and .45 Colt cartridges for my .45 Colt SAA clones.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
The Triple 7 seems to be a pretty fair substitute . The velocities are good ,it seems to shoot good . Will shoot again this week to see what kind of group it will  produce .

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Today I shot the Triple 7 loads . I shot at 50 yards to see what kind of group I could attain . The first 3 rounds was about a 1 1/2 inch group . Then I shot 8 more rounds at the steel target at 60 yards no problem . I shot the last 3 rounds at the 50 yard target to see if it would give the same results as the first 3 rounds . The results were almost identical . The rifle cleaned up easily , the brass washed right up with a little soap and water . In the past I used APP and the groups were fair and the velocities were up and down . The next time I get to shoot I plan on shooting out to at least 100 yards . I want to see what T7 can do at 100 + yards .
 

[Pappy Myles]

Heres what I've tried in the 45 colt, model 73 with 24" barrel.   A little over 1.6CC of 777 with a 250 grain RNFP.  I havnt run it across a crony yet, but very good accuracy at 50 yards. Cleans up well.

I have a 73 in 44-40 with a 20" barrel that I plan on using with 2 bullets.  Lymans 427 666 and the 427098. probably with the same load.  I'll post once I get some crony data

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Today I got a chance to go shooting . I sat 3 targets out at 50 ,65 ,75 yards . I shot Triple 7 and I also had a half box of ammo loaded with Swiss 3f .Both shot real good , when I shoot black I will be using SWISS . Now if I use a sub it will be Triple 7 and if I use a smokeless load then Unique will do the job . I actually prefer Swiss for Vintage Hunting .
 The T7 is accurate , the velocities  were consistent , and clean up is a charm . For rifle and brass . I  shot my Prewar from USFA that load was a handful ,wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that .   

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
I did a little filming today while I was shooting we reviewed it tonight and will stick it on YOUTUBE . This was my first at running the camera and shooting . Oh well you will get your money's worth . 

[PJ Hardtack]

When I don't want to take the time to load BP in 44-40, I simply drop a 30 gr Pyrodex pellet into the cases and seat a bullet.

Very accurate, lots of smoke. It's the only BP sub I've ever used.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
If your wanting a good load for your 44wcf and can't get your hands on Black powder the Triple 7 works pretty good . Your smokeless lubed bullets will work just fine . If you start your load out at 22.5 grains by WEIGHT that will give you about 1250 fps out of a 24 inch rifle . I have only used the 2f and it was plenty HOT , so I would stay away from the 3f in the T7 . So if your wanting a Vintage Hunting round and can't come up with BP here is another option . Good luck and happy Hunting and always be safe .

[Grapeshot]

Howdy
Has anyone worked with these , and do they work . I have worked with American Pioneer Powder   Goex Pinacle they are easy clean up and you can use smokeless bullets with them . But they were not real consistent as far as velocities . Has anyone used any triple 7 . Wanting to produce 1300 fps out of a 24 inch rifle , will it do it .

I used 777 at one time when I found it the local WalMart for $14 a can.  I bought three cans and used it in my .44-40.  I did not read where you were not supposed to compress this stuff.  I filled the case and compressed the charge and seated my HARD CAST RCBS 200 gr Cowboy boolit and went to a CAS match.  While there we had a scenario the required us to dump 10 rounds into a steel Buffalo.  After shooting, the posse leader yelled out to me, "Hey, ,Grapeshot!  What are you shooting, depleted uranium?"  It seems my rounds put ten craters in the mild steel Buff.  Fortunately, I was on my last box of that batch of .44-40.