Weight or Volume

[w44wcf]

About 10 years ago when I was getting interested in b.p. in repeating rifles, I bought 2 different batches of 44-40 bp  cartridges from a cartridge dealer / collector.

I dissected some from each batch because I wanted to see just how much powder and powder type they were loaded with.
The cartridges contained 40.0 grs by weight of powder.

I placed the powder from each batch into my B&M powder measure and discovered that one batch was 9% less dense than the other ........ 40 grs vs  36.5 grs at the same measure setting.

To Fairshake's point, both batches contained 40 grs by weight of powder so the powder was measured by weight rather than volume when they were loaded at the factory.

From that day forward I have loaded my b.p. cartridges by weight rather than volume.  

w44wcf      

[Fairshake]

I am sorry that my form of posting is not up to your standards. I will be the first to say that even though I have a few years of college in criminal justice I always paid to have my papers typed. When I was on the police department in Narcotics Division and had my reports typed by the office secretary that was the way it was done. I served my country during Viet-Nam and on the streets of Baton Rouge, La. for over 15 years. I lost 2 riding partners and a total of 14 fellow officers. I will not say the exact number but around 58,000 fellow soldiers. I am now 64 years of age with several health problems, some of which may shorten my life. I live every day with a infusion pump implanted in my body to deliver Dilaudid to my spine so that I may walk. I don't give one tiny care about what you feel is wrong with my way of posting information.I don't care if you find my mistakes in the proper use of the English language. You as a person mean not a thing to me sir. If it will make you feel better then send me a F in my next report. It is my feelings that the content of a message is 100 times more important than it's layout!! You have a nice day. This message is for FCK

[Lefty Dude]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=paragraph+indentation

Not good Sir.

[Advertising]

[Mako]

Not good Sir.

You don't like indention?

[Cuts Crooked]

...ain't worth gettin all het up over Pards!

SO...............CHILL!!!!



                                

[Pulp]

After reading this thread and the fireworks thread I'm beginning to think I'm on the SASS Wire.

[yeti76620]

After reading this thread and the fireworks thread I'm beginning to think I'm on the SASS Wire.

  I know what ya mean,... had to look again myself!...  HEH Heh HA Ha....     

[Fox Creek Kid]

After reading this thread and the fireworks thread I'm beginning to think I'm on the SASS Wire.

This is how we learn. Two people take opposing positions and buttress their argument & we then decide who knows what they're talking about. Theoretically. 

[zymurgeist]

What I got out of it is you're safe enough using either volume or weight as long as you don't go overboard but for the really fine control you need to verify both and adjust your loads for the particular rifle and conditions. Which is oddly basically the same thing you do for that heathen stuff. Although normally they use weight and we use volume.

[wildman1]

   Use FFg as a preference and keep the VOLUME equal to or up to about 30% LESS han the VOLUME of shot.

Thanks for that tip Sir Charles. I have just started loading shotgun in BP and felt that my pattern was a little wide, so I tried that (30% less powder than shot by volume) it cut my pattern size in half. Thanks, WM

[wildman1]

...ain't worth gettin all het up over Pards!

SO...............CHILL!!!!



                                

  Are you allowed ta use CHILLed shot in CAS?    WM

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks for that tip Sir Charles. I have just started loading shotgun in BP and felt that my pattern was a little wide, so I tried that (30% less powder than shot by volume) it cut my pattern size in half. Thanks, WM

Wildman

The goal is not a smaller pattern. The goal is a pattern with consistent density through out the pattern. Shotguns are mostly used to break or kill flying targets. One of the things you want to avoid is a 'hole' in the pattern that a target can sail through unscathed. You want reasonably consistent distribution of the shot throughout the pattern.

Holes in the pattern can appear as random spots through out the pattern. What Sir Charles was referring to was a pattern with the shot mostly spread out in a ring on the periphery of the pattern with a great big hole in the middle. That's what usually happens when there is too much powder for any given shot charge. The total diameter of the pattern has not changed, just the distribution of the shot. With a big hole in the middle of the pattern, a pheasant, a clay pigeon, or even a CAS knockdown may emerge unscathed. To change the overall diameter of the shot pattern, one usually goes to a different choke, although there are some other tricks too.

My own BP load has 1 1/8 ounces of shot, and 4.3CC of powder. I don't know exactly how much less than a square load it is, but it is significantly less. I believe my powder charge weighs out to around 2 1/3 drams, where as a typical load for that shot charge would probably be 2 3/4 drams. Fired out of my cylinder chokes, it stinks as a Trap load, but it knocks down anything I point it at in CAS. Probably if I started going up to over 3 drams I would expect to start having a 'donut' shaped pattern.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

DJ;  Only a pattern test will say whether a donut pattern is the result in your gun & load.  Generally speaking slower shot columns stay together more.  This is could be due to fewer damaged pellets to some extent, but is more to do with the lesser violence of the projection of the load from the muzzle.  I can't show you any tests or refer you to any learned books, but I'll bet you can find this in some writing by Gough Thomas. (Or, see the link below, from 1767) No, I can't use a CAD program.  It is shot on target that makes the KD fall, and I agree with DJ that a "sawdoff" has very poor pattern control.

The size of shot also has an effect.  Generally, smaller shot give wider patterns, and heavier pellets larger ones.

PTERYPLEGIA; Or, The Art of Shooting-Flying, a POEM by Mr. Abraham Markland, 1727 (3d Ed. 1767)
http://www.archive.org/stream/pteryplegiaorart00mark#page/4/mode/2up

flip through to page 4, and note the following passage;  Apparently even 286 years ago less powder was known to increase pattern efficiency? This poem was apparently intended to convey the knowledge of wing shooting that the French had developed to our English forefathers

"One Third the well turn'd shot superior must
Arise, and overcome the Nitrous dust"

See also;  http://www.redriverrenegades.com/black_powder_shotgun_basics.htm

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Wildman1

You Gotter Otter!  That is what I intended to say.  That is what I thought I said.  I think that you understood it. 

And it worked!

[wildman1]

It worked great, I shot my 20 ga. with 7/8th oz, 1 oz, 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz of shot all with 70% powder to shot by volume. I ended up with a hole in a cardboard target about 8" in diameter. WM

[Mako]

"The goal is not a smaller pattern." The goal is a pattern with consistent density through out the pattern. Shotguns are mostly used to break or kill flying targets. One of the things you want to avoid is a 'hole' in the pattern that a target can sail through unscathed. You want reasonably consistent distribution of the shot throughout the pattern. ...

... or even a CAS knockdown may emerge unscathed. To change the overall diameter of the shot pattern, one usually goes to a different choke, although there are some other tricks too.

Driftwood,
I hate to be contrary but I think that is the goal of most of us on this CAS forum.  We don't give a hoot about consistent density or a "pattern."  I for one just want it all doing what Wildman just said his did.  I want a small "grouping" of my shot.  I just want it all inside of a circle that will put each and every pellet on the knockdown as long as I aim to the center.

Traditional shotshell loads strive for consistent patterns of equidistant spacing of shot.  These are measured in choke patterns with percentages of the shot falling withing predetermined circles at predetermined distances.  I would be thrilled with an EXTRA EXTRA FULL pattern at 15 yards with birdshot, though anyone intending to use the gun for fowl would say that was much to tight and the pattern would be clumped in the middle.

Maybe it's semantics, but I want a smaller pattern for my cowboy guns.  We shot some brass shells yesterday at a gathering and I was showing them how the pattern would be great for bunnies at 10 yards but the pattern was lousy for knockdowns.  At 10 yards  1 1/4 ounces of shot had a nice pattern over the targets they stapled up, but they were not centrally biased or 100% on the paper.  We're talking 10 yards here. The reason we were shooting them is I had poor luck with those particular brass hulls at a match a couple of years ago and was using them just for fun shootn' as we were doing with the kids. 

That '78 Colt Double reproduction ( it has 3" chambers and a long lead on the throat and the choke) does pretty well with plastic wads but won't always drop a plate even with a 1 1/4 ounce load with the brass hulls and fiber wads.  There was no "doughnut" hole just a "nice" pattern.  I can use a wad cup on top of a fiber wad and bunch it up, or simply use a plastic hull and wad.

~Mako



~Mako

[wildman1]

Mako, my 8" pattern was at about 10 yds. I'm loading without a press like BDM's video, using Circle Fly wads, no lube, no plastic. I'm gettin lead in the barrels but I don't care as it removes very easily. Stoeger coach gun 20 ga. I love it. WM

[Mako]

Mako, my 8" pattern was at about 10 yds. I'm loading without a press like BDM's video, using Circle Fly wads, no lube, no plastic. I'm gettin lead in the barrels but I don't care as it removes very easily. Stoeger coach gun 20 ga. I love it. WM

That's a sweet size Wildman...

That's why I mentioned your post, I think 100% in 8" at 10 yards is perfect.

~Mako

[Lefty Dude]

An 8" pattern at 10 yards is excellent for our sport.

I design my CAS/SASS  SG loads to KD the targets. My open choke SXS 12 will level the targets if I do my part. I use all brass shells, 7/8 oz of shot and a volume of approx. 42-45 gr. of 2F. The shot is held in a plastic short wad. W/O the plastic wad I must use a 1 1/8 oz charge of shot and 50-55 gr. of 2F, to achieve the same results as the 7/8 oz receipe.

All things considered, a small plastic wad is much more cost effective than additional powder & shot to achieve the same effect.

If I used my CAS/SASS loads for hunting, (which I never will) I doubt I would  hit the broad side of a Barn.

As an Elderstatesman shooting FT, my shoulder say's no more 2 3/4- 3 dram loads of BP or Smokless powder.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

What a beautiful thread hijack!

We got past the old weight vs. volume debate and onto a practical discussion on how to get the lead on the gong!