Early 11th CAV CAS/SASS persona or....???

[northwestgrizzly]

Howdy folks. I have been lurking this website for awhile and have been trying to decide which direction I want to go with my persona. I want to make whichever route I go persona-wise to be as close as possible within the realms of CAS/SASS. I know that the shooting portion of SASS precludes true historical accuracy and with that being said I am trying to decide between a standard cowboy 1880 time frame and an 11th Cav trooper (1901). I won't go into details about the cowboy persona of this post as its primary purpose is to get information on the 11th Cav trooper.

I find I am drawn to the idea of the early 11th Cavalry Trooper, since I used to be one myself. Granted it was in the 80's....1980's Cavalry Scout..   but I find it alluring to reproduce the garb and persona and attempt to apply it to a SASS scenario. At the same time I have been re-enacting history for many years and have found myself constantly reproducing a military persona in my various other time frames. I was hoping to move away from the military recreation into a civilian character such as the cowboy to maybe reproduce a bit of my own family's history since I can pictorially trace them back to 1853.

Since this is one of my very first posts I will say howdy folks!!!....and also say that based off of what I wrote I would welcome thoughts, questions and comments. Thank you!  

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I would think that if one went to the military Historical Officer for the 11th, one could find as much documentation as one could possibly want. Muster lists, troop movements, and especially orders should give the troopers name, birthdate et al. With that documentation, I would think it would become a more standard identity search.

But I would go and get some face time time with the unit and base historians if at all possible .... not only would that show far more interest, sincerety and motivation than any letter or email would provide, but over coffee or dinner at the "O" Club, the possibility of getting information that a historian could not put into writing would make the trip worthwhile....

Another thing that would probably be worthwhile would be a trip to any base museum ... not only would there be period uniforms and artifacts, but the historians there are usually bored and would really appreciate anyone who values their work ....

Best of luck with your research!

[kflach]

You wrote "11th Cav trooper (1901)." The 1901 would be about 2 years later than is usually used in CAS. What was the 11th Cavalry doing during the Civil War or the Indian Wars?

Could you combine the two (cowboy & Trooper) to be an 'ex-11th Cavalry soldier" - a veteran of the Civil War or something like that who's kept some of his gear but moved on to become a cowboy, buffalo hunter or some kind of scout? That way you might be able to combine clothing and weapons elements to get the best of both worlds.

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[St. George]

The 11th Cavalry was constituted  2 February 1901 in the Regular Army.

Organized 11 March 1901 at Fort Myer, Virginia - Colonel Francis D. Moore, Commanding.

There's more - but their early Campaign Streamers are for 'Philippine Insurrection - 1901' and 'Mexico 1916-1917'

Their uniform was that then in Service - a mixture of late 1880's -1900 garb - changing after 1910.

By the time the 11th was  up and running, the Frontier West was a thing of the past.

They currently provide OPFOR at Fort Irwin, California (National Training Center) - primarily training the National Guard and providing an 'Enemy Force' to operate against - and there's no O-Club.

Read:  'The Eleventh Cavalry 1901-1923' - by F.T. Bonsteel - published in 1923 at Monterey, California.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

St George;  During the Indian wars I thought the cavalry only went up to the Tenth.  (9th & 10th being Buffalo Soldiers.)

Do your regular regiments perpetuate the traditions and battle honours of earlier organizations?   I think there were greater numbers of both Cavalry & Infantry regiments just after the (Un)Civil war.

BTW, what happened to the pre-war dragoons and mounted rifle units?

[northwestgrizzly]

I would think that if one went to the military Historical Officer for the 11th, one could find as much documentation as one could possibly want. I would think it would become a more standard identity search.

Another thing that would probably be worthwhile would be a trip to any base museum ... not only would there be period uniforms and artifacts, but the historians there are usually bored and would really appreciate anyone who values their work ....

I believe your right about the quantity of information. I feel if I go that route it will simply be putting in the effort to find the proper support documentation. As for a museum, there is a post museum very near me and a large one too. I had plans on heading there on my days off this week and take a look-see.

You wrote "11th Cav trooper (1901)." The 1901 would be about 2 years later than is usually used in CAS. What was the 11th Cavalry doing during the Civil War or the Indian Wars?

Could you combine the two (cowboy & Trooper) to be an 'ex-11th Cavalry soldier" - a veteran of the Civil War or something like that who's kept some of his gear but moved on to become a cowboy, buffalo hunter or some kind of scout? That way you might be able to combine clothing and weapons elements to get the best of both worlds.

If I go with the information printed in the SASS Wildbunch Shooters handbook, it says that........

"Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to
wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century and early 20th century cowboy and military. Emphasis is put on period US military from 1900 to 1916.".....

That being the case I can go with a very early (1901) uniform and still be somewhat "Old Westy"....that's obviously not a real word but it seemed appropriate right then...

Also I really like your suggestion about the "Cow-Trooper", the ex-11th, thats appealing. Thank you for the idea!

The 11th Cavalry was constituted  2 February 1901 in the Regular Army.

Organized 11 March 1901 at Fort Myer, Virginia - Colonel Francis D. Moore, Commanding.
Read:  'The Eleventh Cavalry 1901-1923' - by F.T. Bonsteel - published in 1923 at Monterey, California.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

The book by F.T. Bonsteel sounds interesting. I am way far away away from where the 11th is garrisoned these days so even if there was an "O" club I could go to....the distance would prohibit it.... I will admit that is one thing that dis-enchants me with the idea is that the Regiment was formed at the turn of the century and not before, so thats one main reason I may not go that route.

[St. George]

They did number up to the Tenth Cavalry during the Indian Wars, and they did keep the traditions of their predecessors.

Earlier units were amalgamated into the newly-forming or re-designated units, with all previous Battle Honors intact.

Matter of fact - 'Cavalry' is the only element within the American Army that maintains some of the 'better' traditions and they're encouraged to do so.

That's why you see Cav Stetsons and spurs and sabers  and spur rests on your Dehner boots - as well as crossed sabers on all assigned Troopers when you look at a Cavalry outfit - even it's aviators...

Of course, while the rest of the trappings are de rigeur - spurs are earned, and not everyone makes the cut, but everyone who does - wears 'em.

Matter of fact - I'm looking at my spurs, as we speak - they're the Model 1911 style - made by August Buermann, anf they're buckled onto my Dehners...

The current 'home' of the 11th ACR is at the NTC.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[northwestgrizzly]

St. George,
               I still have my spurs also, there are some things that you just never get rid of and thats one of them. I have followed the 11th over the years since I was in. I believe that the 3/11th was deactivated since I havent been able to find hide nor hair of them for awhile. Having a 10th Cav persona would be interesting but wouldn't have the time-travel aspect to being an 11th Cav Trooper....again. It may sound a little strange but thats what it feels like when I contemplate developing the early Blackhorse trooper persona.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Speaking of Blackhorse ... I ran into this this morning while writing the original post.

This might be the best place to have a first contact, espcially since you are/were Blackhorse...

http://blackhorse.org/

My father was Army Air Corps and changed from brown show to black shoe when he was asked to return for the Korean 'Police Action'.

So in 1969, with my draft 3 being 2 and having seen them draft Marines, it seemed like a good idea to become an Airdale ....*S*

[northwestgrizzly]

Speaking of Blackhorse ... I ran into this this morning while writing the original post.

This might be the best place to have a first contact, espcially since you are/were Blackhorse...

http://blackhorse.org/

My father was Army Air Corps and changed from brown show to black shoe when he was asked to return for the Korean 'Police Action'.

So in 1969, with my draft 3 being 2 and having seen them draft Marines, it seemed like a good idea to become an Airdale ....*S*

I am aware of this site, thank you. There are a few sites dedicated to the 11th ACR some location specific (German border) some time specific (Vietnam) and I think I have them all bookmarked....

The Brown/Black shoe reference...is that a Naval thing? Command vs. non-command officers or something like that?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

In the 40s and 50s, they would refer to men of my father's ilk as 'Brown Shoe Mustangs'...

Brown shoe means that they had at one time worn the 'pink and green' (Actually tan and brown with pink and green irredescences) Army Air Corps Uniform ... which had brown shoes rather than black.

Mustang was a term for a previously enlisted man that came up through the ranks to become an officer ...

[northwestgrizzly]

In the 40s and 50s, they would refer to men of my father's ilk as 'Brown Shoe Mustangs'...

Brown shoe means that they had at one time worn the 'pink and green' (Actually tan and brown with pink and green irredescences) Army Air Corps Uniform ... which had brown shoes rather than black.

Mustang was a term for a previously enlisted man that came up through the ranks to become an officer ...

Awesome pic! Thanks for the explanation. I think I am starting to lean towards the 1/2&1/2 Trooper.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

When my father passed away, my mother gave me his Form 5 (Record of Flight) ...

It shows him taking his first solo flight in 1941 in a P-17...

The biggest thing he ever flew was a C-124 ...

[northwestgrizzly]

Those are nice pics. The only picture I have of my father is him in his Navy whites.....nothing else. I don't even know what his MOS was, its great that you have so much detail about your dads history.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

NWGrizzly,

I have a special advantage that my father was a carreer officer, and had just retired two years before I was 'enlisted' into the Air Force ...

I can remember that, as a flying Maintenance Officer, he would take me out to McGuire AFB (Trenton NJ). I must have been seven or eight at the time.

He would find an old C-46 or C-47, open up the cargo compartment, and flip me inside. Then he would assign some hapless enlisted guy to make sure I didn't fall out the door. Et voila! The cargo compartment became my personal half tube while my father went and inspected/signed off some work being done somewhere else on the ramp ...

Then there was the time that a C-124 was being a 'hangar queen'.  The regs stated that if an aircraft was to be on the ground for more that 30 days, that the aircraft would have to be moved to keep the tires from developing a memory where they were flat against the pavement.

Dad helped me climb way up the rope ladder to the cockpit, put me on his lap as he sat in the pilot's seat, fired up the four 4360 cu in engines and placed my hands on the throttle under his as he coaxed the plane to taxi forward ..

He did a lot of things to make me feel special, but taxiing that aircraft with him is something I will remember far beyond the birthday parties and the usual father-son stuff that we did ...

[Books OToole]

You need to get a copy of The Horse Soldier by Randy Stephen.  It is a 4 vol. set.  I think the time period that you want is covered in Vo. 3.

Books

[northwestgrizzly]

I read through the SASS manuals and realized I had mis-quoted something about the time frame allowed...I was looking in the "Wildbunch" handbook....so that being the case using an 11th Cav trooper wont work so I will have to pick an older regiment. Kflach was right that my question was a few years late for SASS.

[St. George]

Indeed...

Try the Fifth Cavalry, if you're looking for a 'busy' outfit - or the Sixth.

Everyone thinks that the only Cavalry units of the Indian-Fighting Army were the Ninth, Tenth and the Seventh.

Just like everyone wants to be a Rough Rider, when they decide they'll do a Spanish-American War Impression, and God help them all - they all want to portray Officers...

If you're a die-hard Eleventh Cavalry trooper, though - this doesn't preclude you the investigation into their exploits in Mexico and the accumulation of appropriate uniforms and gear to give an accurate Impression.

Plus - the 11th ACR at Fort Irwin has a 'Horse Platoon' - though there's no O-Club for a tete-a'-tete - and their gear is pretty accurate.

However - a more 'modern' Impression 'can' be correspondingly expensive, since you'll actually need an M1903 Springfield or one built at Rock Island Arsenal - plus an 'actual' M1911, though Colt makes a helluva modern one, needing little more than darker Walnut grips and half-tone magazines to make look 'right'.

The other thing is getting proper uniform articles and the Campaign Hat in the correct colors - a modern US-issue DI's hat is far too dark, so that means a more expensive one.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[pony express]

I don't think being a 1901 11th cav trooper would exclude you from shooting in SASS. When shooting, you'd have to use the standard pistol-caliber lever action anyway, unless you shoot with a club that also has a "GAF', Grand Army of the Frontier catagory. We've recently added that to my club, and I have shot as just a generic Span-Am/Philippine Insurrection trooper, with a Krag. While I'm far from a uniform expert, I believe that in 1901, wouldn't they be still wearing the 1899 khaki and/or blue wool uniform still? And with one of the earlier campaign hats, not a montanna peak style? Those certainly would fit into the pre-1900 time period of SASS.

[Dr. Bob]

When the Army changed uniforms just after[?] the Korean war to the green uniform that lasted through Viet Nam, the shoes were changed from brown to black.  That was also the time when the Army Air Corps was split off into the US Air Force.  They went from the OD uniforms to the blue uniforms.  The early USAF had Ike jackets in AF blue!