Author Topic: History Buffs  (Read 25744 times)

Offline Caprock Louis

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History Buffs
« on: October 08, 2009, 07:01:49 AM »
Curious thoughts as I have been reading the posts

I wonder what percentage of Cowboy action shooters are also truly into the historical aspect of the old west.

Perhaps a number interested in their personal background.

I would imagine a good size number may have been influenced by old west TV of fifty years ago.  Of course all of the above and more.

Just some thoughts

Caprock Louis
lost somewhere deep in the heart of Texas

Offline James Hunt

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 08:21:24 AM »
I would guess that most would claim to be "truely into the historical aspect" - I would also venture that nearly all have no idea as to what that means. Historical reality is almost always trumped by the lure of the cool factor ("how do I look") and the shooting factor (in most cases CAS is really just IPSC while wearing ridiculus attire).

Consider that the goal of many folks is to arrive at the point that they can show up with heavily spotted bat-wings, equally spotted low-cut holsters (perhaps a nice cant on the cross draw), a stampede string attached to a huge hat, a pair of boots with that nifty expandable leg for their calf girth, a pair of $25 dollar decorator spurs, and short barrled guns shooting a light load because that is what the big stars of CAS use. That same person will insist that his attire is history based and will defend unto your death his right to embrace his belief.

We all need to keep in mind that this is a shooting sport first and not reenactment. Hence, two guns, a modern pocket pistol, a short barreled 97, and a 73 - all carried in a gun cart with a virtual plethora of modern cleaning agents and refreshment. Good. Not a problem. Let those inclined enjoy it without argument.

I have come to understand that there is no magic moment when we cross a line and become "historical", rather it is a continuum that often starts with the above scenario. I fully confess that my interest started with a Hawken gun, an army surplus balnket, a pair of Dyer moccasins, and a blue granite cup. It was only thru the guidance of some of those you see on this board and my good friend Brass (an unrepentant stitch counter and button pisser) that I have advanced down the road of authenticity. Some make it further than others, some don't start the trip.
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Offline St. George

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 09:57:44 AM »
The purpose of this Forum is to educate those who want to know more about the 'real' Old West - as opposed to the 'reel' Old West as perpetuated by the oaters of the '40's and '50's.

Those comprise the 'John Ford Reference Library', and as we should know - Hollywood does things for artistic effect and 'dramatic license' is the Order of the Day.

This is why it's designed to be helpful to those seeking knowledge of the times - but doesn't encourage the flights of fancy that lead to what's seen in different C&WAS venues.

Some folks think that what they see in those venues is 'how it was' and they shy away from doing any research on their own - being content to emulate the visual of their heroes in their head - while others realize that there was a helluva lot more to the era - and that letting others know through example is both edifying as well as entertaining.

'Getting it right' just isn't all that difficult to do - especially with the information here - and honestly - most folks do want to learn something, even if they're not the ones to open the books and archives.

Vaya,

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #3 on: Today at 01:54:21 AM »

Offline Forty Rod

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 10:34:08 AM »
I'm into history for my books, but my CAS image is more my own creation.  If I like it and it looks sorta period western, it's okay.
People like me are the reason people like you have the right to bitch about people like me.

Offline Caprock Louis

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 04:30:46 PM »
My thoughts were not so much as to the historical dress of CAS members but I was wondering how many are truly interested in history and their interest in history which has brought them into this wonderful hobby..

I recently have started wearing western clothes much more which in turn reminds me of my youth in the oilfields of New Mexico where I was raised and worked my way thru college.  That is in some new interest in this hobby.  I am not that intereted in period correct dress at this time but more the B Western anyway.  Still I find room for most.

I have long been interested in firearms especially 19th centruy firearms.  Have since shooting my granddads Colt in the late 50s when my dad inherited it.  Actually a lovely colt dialiates my eyes and breathing increases just like a woman going shopping to the mall.

To me I see the friendships I hope to develop as important as the shooting which I so enjoy.

The history is what really interests me as I look back at the incredible hardships those before us endured to bring to all of us this great country we are able to enjoy today.  The freedoms of America have been so special an example to the world.  My wife's great great granddad was the last living signer of the Texas Declaaration of independance.  He was originally just an old Methodist preacher here in Texas.   He lived his life and was certainly not one of wealth.  What great things these peole have given us.

it is an honor for me to have the ability to see truthfully what has brought us to today.  I feel our enjoyment is a tribute in some ways to those who we follow.

I pray our children will have these freedoms and be able to see a true and unbiased past we have so greatly inherited

Caprock Louis

lost somewhere deep in the heart of Texas

Offline Jeremiah Sullivan

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 08:07:09 PM »
Interesting question as you have phrased it.  I am brand new to CAS and my SASS alias is my Grandfather, more precisely, my Dad's stepfather, Jeremiah Sullivan.  Jere was born in Cappafardeen, County Kerry, Ireland and trained as a "horse-shoer, not a blacksmith!"  He emigrated sometime in the 1880's and spent his journeyman years as an itinerant horse-shoer in the west, including some time in the Colorado mining towns in the 1880's or early 1890's.  Where and when?  I have no clue.  He worked for my Granddad, and when that man died in 1905, for my Grandmother in the horse-shoeing shop back in New York.  Eventually he married the boss.  Pop would talk about how as a schoolboy he was forced to hang around the shop to return horses to their owners when he wanted to be out playing ball with his school chums.  Jere would sit around the shop talking with other "old men" including some GAR veterans (this was circa 1908-1916).  Pop would wince when he recalled paying no attention to the tales they swapped and Jere's descriptions of the towns and people he encountered in the west.
Now I have lived in New Mexico for nine years and Pop (1898-1962) is long gone, and his retold tales are fast fading....  The prospect of having fun shooting and doing it in period settings and costume lured me to CAS in the first place.  Now it is a combination of a wistful desire to know some of what Jere may have experienced, even vicariously, coupled with the camaraderie of the folks I have met that fires my imagination.  I have assembled a small collection of supposedly "authentic" histories and accounts of the local region (even read a few of 'em) and have done a little exploration of NM and Colorado.  My wife has helped understand the life and times, so to speak, through her genealogical research.  Even fleshed out another forebear who fought for the Union and died July 10th, 1863 after a battle in Pennsylvania.  But I am not a historian by any stretch of the imagination...just a buff.  Guess what draws me is the thought of trying to learn more about those long-ago times, have some fun and fantasy along the way. :-*

"Jeremiah Sullivan"
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Albuquerque, NM
Jeremiah Sullivan
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Offline Major 2

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 03:01:45 PM »
History for me....the shooting aspect secondary . I rather research & read about history than reload. 

I reenacted many years 30 + ACW, Rev. TexMex , Creek & Semimole era's 95% of it mounted.
Now <  the Florida Cracker era....
I reached an age when I felt, Troopers were much younger....lighter and had more hair.

NCOWs Appeals to me..because of it's Reenactor roots.... However ther is no NCOWS Posse in Fla. so I shoot SASS.


 
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 04:05:36 PM »
Roger, Don't feel bad, there are a lot of us that have more scalp than hair.
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Offline kflach

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2009, 01:25:02 PM »
I've actually come into this backwards - at least compared to many in this thread. I thought the '58 Remington NMA was a beautiful gun so when I unexpectedly got the chance I bought it. I wanted to learn how to use it so I got online and ended up discovering CAS. The NCOWS shooting looked more fun (and Working Cowboy seemed more accessible) than what SASS offered so I got interested in NCOWS. NCOWS has stricter standards for authenticity, so I started looking at what really happened and how they really dressed. Now I find myself reading up on the historical because I'm enjoying it and I want to - not just because I have to to get my clothing right. But... it was the gun that actually drew me in.

In some ways you could say I'm re-discovering my roots; when I was a kid I was really into Texas history, but that passion was dormant for quite a while. Now it appears to be coming back quite strong.

I don't know if I'll ever be an Originals-class kind of guy, but then again, six months ago I didn't imagine I'd ever actually own that beautiful gun I'd always looked at when we visited the world-famous Wall Drug Store in Wall, South Dakota.
 

Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2009, 05:03:05 PM »
My maternal/maternal grandfather was the real Wadd Watson Ellis ... and is buried in the Covey Chapel Cemetary (that he donated the land for).  This is all southwest of San Antonio, near the present town of Dilly.

Although I try to emulate him, I fear I fall far short. After his return from the Civil War he said that he had seen all the kiliing he ever wanted and more, and refused to carry a gun except to go hunting. And this was in 1868-1870 ... from what I have read, the West was far from a place for an unarmed man at that time.

My father's family fought in Pennsylvannia regiments (I believe) down the Eastern Seaboard. After the war, they too put down their weapons and returned to the plowshare.

I wish more of both sides of my family would have put more into written history ... most of what I have handed down is a hearsay of misspelled names and regiments, with little or no way of backtracking....
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Offline Jeremiah Sullivan

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2009, 05:40:56 PM »
WadWatson Ellis remarked: " My father's family fought in Pennsylvannia regiments (I believe) down the Eastern Seaboard. After the war, they too put down their weapons and returned to the plowshare.

"I wish more of both sides of my family would have put more into written history ... most of what I have handed down is a hearsay of misspelled names and regiments, with little or no way of backtracking...."

In my family we had the partial tale of a grandmother somewhere along the line who hated Mr. Lincoln, till the day she died, blaming him for her brother's death.  Not much to go on.  Well my wife has become a genealogist (degreed graduate librarian by trade, since retired) and in the course of her searches for this and that discovered names and birth dates in various census and city records, these led to the U.S. Pension Files in Wash, DC which delivered to her hands my great great grandmother's original handwritten depositions of dependency (got to look actually, copy but not keep) that qualified the family for a pension for the service of Sgt Patrick Farrington 83rd (I think it was) NY Volunteers.  Other notes fleshed out the family of a boy literally just off the boat at Castle Garden enlisting just before the outbreak of the war, his campaigns leading up to his wounds on July 3rd, 1863 and his death at Gettysburgh on July 10th, 1863. 

She herself is on the trail of a great great grandmother who deserted her husband and child in Denver in the 1880's and disappeared from the family history.

Keep looking, never forget them, and you may be able to put flesh and bones onto some of those awfully thin family memories..
Jeremiah Sullivan
SASS # 85810
BOLD # 990
NCIS Retired
Albuquerque, NM

Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 05:10:43 PM »
Historical accuracy and...period correctness....is what I strive for, and lastly shooting. Do I consider myself a stitch counter? yes and proud of it. If that is what you are looking for, then NCOWS is for you. There are plenty of individuals in our organization (National Congress of Old West Shootists) that will help you achieve those goals if that is what appeals to you.

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Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 06:13:28 PM »
They have a state prison facility near Dilley, I have been there many times to pick up prisoners to take back to Fort Worth for trial.
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Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 02:39:08 AM »
Lawdog,

If you find yourself in Dilley with some time on your hands (prisoner not ready, etc.), look up the Covey Chapel Cemetary ... there you will find the resting place of the original Wadd Watson Ellis, his wife Celia Barrow Ellis , and his son Samuel Houston Ellis .... as well as many other Ellis and Elkins.


I am including the only pic I have ov Wadd Watson Ellis ....

My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Offline Roscoe Coles

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2009, 03:35:34 AM »
In response to the original question, I find that there are very few people involved in SASS that have any interest in actual history.  They say they do, kind of, but most have no idea what the actual history is and can't be bothered to find out.  Its a "sport" to most folks, and when they do get "historical" they quote a lot more movies than they do books.  When they do quote books, they tend to be the wrong ones.

NCOWS is something different.  While there are some odd ducks there too, in general, they are very interested in actual history.

As for me, listening to the stories of my family as a child made me a history nut.  We have been in what would become America since 1670 and fought in just about every war we have ever had.  We have a medal of honor winner, a confederate, doctors, miners, a millionaire, teachers, college professors, gunsmiths, farmers, cowboys, rustlers and just about every other thing in the family.  We were always on the frontier and facing west. 

My love of history led me to a degree in American History, a masters and, if I don't explode before February, a Ph.D. in historical archaeology.  While this background makes me something of a skeptic when dealing with the American west (lots of fantasy passes for history in the field) I am always looking to improve my impression and my equipment.  Like Bill, I'm happy to be a thread counter.  But that don't mean I can't shoot!

Offline jrdudas

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 09:11:49 AM »
I am quite interested in history, but that is not what brought me to CAS.  I am a long-time target shooter and most interested in the guns of the late 1800's along with military weapons.  I began to find some of the organized target shooting events to be over-the-top as far as competition; to the point where fun was one of the last elements in the equation.  While I would like to see a bit more emphasis on accuracy than on elapsed time in CAS, I still think that fun is the main focus of the activity. 

As for the western dress; I dress the same for CAS events as I do every day.  I have always been a cowboy (which is essentially a state of mind) even though I made my living in other areas.  I think the everyday western attire of today is not much different than the authentic attire of the mid to late 1800's.  Yes we have zippers instead of buttons in some cases, and belts instead of suspenders, but generally the styles are not much different.  When you analyze the typical western dress I find that much of its particulars are the result of deciding what makes the most sense.  Jeans are tough and durable; snap button shirts are much more sensible when you are doing physical things that often result in the loss of buttons.  Boots protect your feet and ankles; riding heels help keep you feet in the stirrups.  Western hats protect you from the desert sun (if you have never lived in the desert your can't fully appreciate this), and big belt buckles provide protection from shots to the belly; OK that one is a joke.

So for me, CAS represents the convergence of two or three interests; shooting, history, and western dress.  And most of the folks you meet put more value in having fun than in ending the day with their name at the top of the leader board.

JR
     

Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2009, 03:17:44 PM »
Hi Y'all,

I too came to SASS and CAS through shooting ... I got tired of firing my Webley MK VI and 7X57 Mauser on traditional firing ranges (ready on the left, ready on the right .... etc).

In 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid' Sundance asks in frustration if he can 'move'  ... I felt the same frustration ... guns had to be carried in in a special manner ... loaded during special times  ... and fired in certain times. God forbid if a person wanted to wear his sidearm and draw from a holstered position!  Heresy!

It is so nice to be more natural about shooting ... plus the historic tie-in is fun and enlightening ... for instance, the first time I wore spurs I quickly learned why cowboys walked slightly pidgeon toed .... as I picked myself up off the ground and untangled my spurs .... LOL
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

Offline Stillwater

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 05:36:38 PM »
I came by my interest in history in what I call the right way.

My family has been in America since 1630. The first officially recorded birth was in 1637. Counting backwards from me, and in four generations we go from my birth in 1936 to my great, great grandfathers birth in 1757.

My family, has always been a family of movers, never staying one place very long. They moved from 1757 Connecticut, to arriving in Mentor, Ohio, before the 1804 birth of my great grandfather. They were in Clarinda, Appanoose county, Iowa for the 1850 birth of my grandfather. My grandfather was a tough old nut, he lasted until the fall of 1950.

My family has participated in every action our country has been involved in from before the French and Indian War, to the Viet-nam war.  And, participated in some localized conflicts such as the Johnson County War, to the Lincoln County War. Two of my ancesters off spring, Robert Beckwith, and Marmaduke Beckwith, were killed in the Lincoln County War.

My grandfather, as a young man, had been in Montana since 1866 and was a scout, hired by Gibbons, to lead the cavalry toward what later proved to be the Little Big Horn battlefield. Gibbons and his cavalry arrived the day after the Custer debacle. They got to clean up the battlefield and bury the dead.

In doing genealogy I found that the Maria Fitzgerald that married Emanuel Custer, was my own fathers, great aunt, Her maiden name was Ward. She had a prior marriage to a man named Fitzgerald, and three children, before she married Emanuel Custer, and bore him three children. They were George Armstrong Custer, Thomas Ward Custer, and Boston Custer.

In doing genealogy I also found that there was a Privateer (legal pirate), named Seth Beckwith, who had papers of Marque issued to him during the American War of Independence, by the Colonial government so he could legally capture British ships and bring them to American ports. Shareing the prize derived, with the Colonial Government.

I was born in Columbus, Montana which is just a short ways from the Little Big Horn Battlefield. I could always count on a spring time horse back ride, from our home in Columbus, to the Little Big Horn. We would stay for a few days, walk the battlefield with my grandfather pointing out where facets of the action, happened.

What piqued my interest in history, at an early age, was much closer at hand. It was my grandfather. He used to tell me Montana fur trapping stories, Indian fighting stories, Buffalo hunting stories, bad guy hanging stories by the hour. He had an avid listener in me.

I found our local library, even though a small town library, was an excellent source of Western Americana. Evidentially whoever put the books together, for the library, was also an Old West History Buff. After that there was no turning back.

I have tried to visit every area where a major event took place. I have walked every battlefield from Adobe Walls, to the Little Big Horn, to the Hayfield fight , to the Wagon Box fight. I still have quiet a few eft to visit. If I live long enough I'll make them all.

I have visited Tombstone, AZ, Dodge City, Kansas, and a lot of other places where action happened in the Old West era. It is a passion with me.

When I was young, I never wanted to play baseball, or foot ball, I just wanted to read books about the Old West.  I got a lot of harassment for that from the other school kids. Usually, and hard over hand right, to the loud mouths nose stopped the verbal harassment.

If I wasn't reading a book, I was out shooting, or hunting. My first rifle was a 22 caliber Stevens Crack shot.

I came by my love of the Old West by living with a person, my grandfather, who participated in so much of it, in the Montana, Wyoming area. Anything else, pales into insignificance, beside the Old West in my manner of thinking.

I have an extensive library of Western Americana. I have original books, I have bison books reprints of western Amricana books, from the University of Nebraska Press. The University of Oklahoma Press also reprinted Western Americana books. I have a few books from the University of New Mexico Press.

I have sought out authors such as Robert M. Utley, Paul I. Wellman and other well respected Western Americana authors. I have nothing but contempt to Dee Brown, who wrote "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."

I have Western American in my family, my birth and in my avocations. I love the Old West and it's characters.

What I enjoy doing, is taking someone who doesn't know the Old West, introduce them to it, and watch their interest grow.

However, being extremely protective of my books, as I am with my firearms, I don't lend books, firearms or Western movies. I know, some will think thats very selfish, but it keeps track of them and keeps them in good condition...

Bill

Offline Will Ketchum

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 05:55:57 PM »
Stillwater, that was a great post!  I sure envy you your time with your grandfather.  It must have been awe inspiring to walk the Little Bighorn battlefield with a man who was there.  What an opportunity!

Will Ketchum
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Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: History Buffs
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 06:29:32 PM »
Okay,

In 1490, Thomas Baker, from a line o findependent farmers, bought a lovely estate in Southern England called Sissinghurst.

The Bakers continued up the aristocratic ladder; one of my multi- great grandfathers was Henry VII's and early Elizbeth 1's court chronicler (I.e. historian) ...

All would have contined well had not the family become Quakers, losing their money, titles and land. They came over with the second wave of Penn's people, eventually founding what is now Buck's County PA.

The Bakers continued west, the branch that is my family settling int the Waynesburg/Washinton area  (south of Pittsburg, PA.

The Bakers were well represented in thethe Indian Wars (i.e. East Coast 18th Century), and the Civil War. After that I kind of quit reading the Baker geneology.

But back to my grandfather; a poor coal miner too young for WWI and too old for WWII.

My father served as an instructor pilot in the Army Air Corps, was RIF'd after WWII and recalled for the Korean 'Police Action'

I 'volunteered' in 1969 (i.e. my draft # was 2 so I joined the Air Force). After 8 years in Pararescue, I switched to the Reserves and became an Aeromed Tech, providing care to soldiers and civilians on C141- As and ...

And that is my father's side ...
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403

 

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