How would a ten second penalty for misses change the game?

[Arcey]

I know Arcey personally though and all you have to do is ask him and he'll help you any way that he can.

And, I try so hard to live the part of a jerk.  Thanks, Cammie.

None of our more experienced folks would refuse to help a new shooter if they were asked.  They, including me, have done so.  We have a mentor for every new shooter. I can’t remember ever having to assign someone, we have always had volunteers.  They’ll even offer advice when they aren’t asked.  Often to their own detriment.   I’ve seen one with a bum knee limp/run to the line to give a Junior Lady shells when she forgot hers.

The point I’m trying to make is leave the scoring framework and stage sets as is.  Teach within the established system.  A shooter will reach a level where she/he is comfortable and at that point they should be left alone.  There are better shooters than I am but I don’t want their advice or want them messing with the rules in some cock-eyed attempt to improve me.  I’ll sink or swim on my own.

That’s where my ‘everyone-for-themselves’ comment came from.  I apologize for the sexist way I put it the first time.

That aside, I have no doubt some would modify the rules for a local shoot to better fit their attitude or skills.  I’ve seen it done.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I have to agree with Cammie, Doc and Arcey.

Smaller/farther targets build in slowness. Larger penalties do the same. I like to shoot within whatever framework is standard for the organization the club is supposed to be operating under. Whether SASS or NCOWS, I want whatever the standard is.

I can't imagine shooting at a club where the shooters don't like helping others, that's a good part of the comraderie we all enjoy. I just don't like the attitude of "we're helping you be a better person for your own good, whether you like it or not". Although they may exist somewhere, I don't know any shooter, fast or slow, "who won't help another or who resents some because they might hinder their game".

[Irish Dave]

Well. Good points and a lively discussion ... as it should be.

It's interesting to consider the perspective of separating the "club" from its members. I see the point and it's understandable. For me,  though, I still continue to believe that a club IS its members and if the club makes an effort to help others, the members will too. And vice versa.

We talk about "fun." And true, it's the fun factor that keeps folks coming back. But let's not forget that fun, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder to some extent. I personally believe that the more a club and its members help other shooters improve, the more fun they'll have.

It's also true that what is fun for one may not be fun for another. I'm sure that's why there are different clubs, different organizations and different shooting techniques. I just always hate to see some "fast" guy (usually a full-of-himself wannabe champ) take an elitist attitude that the slower shooters are "holding them up" and are somehow ruining the game for the "real competitors."

Before folks start frothing, I've seen that in person far more than once and it isn't pretty (and no, they were NOT referring to me.) While I agree I have never seen clubs with that attitude, I've seen plenty of individuals who do.

My general response to that attitude is if they're that damned good, then it should not matter one whit whether it's 5 seconds or 25 or how far and small the targets are.

And I guess that brings us back to what impact 5 vs. 10 seconds would have on the sport.

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[Wymore Wrangler]

I've shot both five and ten second misses the last six years at different clubs, neither way hurts my fun at all.  What matters the most is that folks are having fun and our safe, clubs or national organizations, need shooters to survive.  Forget who pays the bills and your out of business...

And Irish Dave, most of the top shooters I have met, are the nicest folks that you would want to meet, (Holy Terror, Evil Roy, Longhunter, Fredrick Jackson Turner, Boots Rob, and Teguila on the National level,) I'd say 99 percent don't have a prima dona attitude, one of our top local shooters who has won Landrun and finished in the top ten at SASS regionals challenged me yesterday at the Cornhusker State Games to a left handed duelist challenge side match (he's right handed and it was his idea), and yep, I beat him.  So  you can always invent ways to have fun.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

And I guess that brings us back to what impact 5 vs. 10 seconds would have on the sport.

Good to get us back on the question, pard. Thanks.

From my own experience, it slows the game. I've shot both and the result was that the 10-second time merely made my overall standing worse when I shot within the 5-second framework although at a match with 10-second misses, everyone came in about the same place they otherwise would. The overall times were, however, slower for all.

[Tensleep]

Irish Dave wrote:
"It's interesting to consider the perspective of separating the "club" from its members. I see the point and it's understandable. For me,  though, I still continue to believe that a club IS its members and if the club makes an effort to help others, the members will too. And vice versa."

Around here (Virginia) and most other places I have shot, "The Club" simply gets together once a month to put on a match or have a work day. Most CAS "clubs" are a small part of a larger gun club and only put on matches. A few, very few, put on new shooter clinics or shooter improvement clinics.

On the other hand many individuals in CAS have spent countless hours of their own time and many dollars of their own money to help new shooters and shooters who want to improve.

It is not the responsibility of the club CAS shooting group to take the time that a match is being shot to help anyone improve their accuracy which is what the original 5 sec v. 10 sec question was about.

[Camille Eonich]

Good discussion.  Thanks to everybody for keeping a level head and not offending and for not being offended.   

[Doc Shapiro]

Well said 'Sleep.  I fully agree with you.

Many of the folks that show up to a match may very well NOT be members of the club putting on the match.  The club putting on the match is not responsible for seeing to the improvement of shooters.  I don't think it's really feasible to keep the two concepts together.

This is part of the discussion as to what will happen with 10 second misses vs. 5 second misses.  The motivation for increasing the penalty is to force the improvement of shooters.  Or to put a higher price on hitting targets.

All it will really accomplish is to slow down the match some and frustrate some of the shooters.

[Tensleep]

Well said 'Sleep.  I fully agree with you.

All it will really accomplish is to slow down the match some and frustrate some of the shooters.

Thanks Doc, and I agree with your statement.

[Arcey]

Hell, we have more visitors than we have club members.  The ‘bored members’ write the stages in rotation.   Those stages are put before the others for critique and final approval.  Since we’re a SASS club, against my recommendation, we write to SASS rules.

The club members and the non-members shooting with us are the friendly sort.  Good people.  Folks wanting to improve have a wealth of experience to tap into.  They, as individuals, have to have the motivation to do so.  As a stage writer there’s nothing I can do to help them except write stages within accepted guidelines. 

That’s what they’re going to see if they enter a shoot on the state level or above.  It’s going to be big targets close, five second misses, ten second procedurals, and scored by rank points.

[Irish Dave]

Doc:

Don't know about others, but I would not agree that the motivation for 10 seconds is to force the improvement of shooters. None of us have any business "forcing" anyone to move beyond where they want to go (within the rules). That'd be "big brotherism" at its worst. That was never anything I intended to convey.

I do agree with your second part, with one minor adjustment. I believe in many cases the 10 second miss rules are motivated by a desire "to put a higher value on hitting targets. "

There are those who believe that hitting 10 in 15 seconds is better than hitting 8 and missing 2 in 5 or 6 seconds. I know some excellent shooters who would be competitive (just comparing times) with just about anybody and can hit all their targets, duelist style at half the size and twice the distance of the standard target arrangement, so it really isn't about slowing the game-- although I would agree at first that would be the net effect short-term.

In the end, I guess, it's all a matter of perspective.
10 second misses, I believe, would slow things fractionally, but that wouldn't be my reason for it. Folks would take that split-second longer to aim their revolvers as the miss would be more costly and, I guess I'm just one of those who believe hitting targets is what it's all about. In a real gunfight, the guy who shoots and hits will likely bury the guy who just shoots first -- and misses.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting SASS change to 10 second misses -- not that it would do them a gnat's worth of good even if they were serious. But it is interesting on a hypothetical level to discuss the possibility and the implications of it.

Would it be a good idea? For some, probably, for others probably not. I just don't want to see folks attributing all kinds of silly or perjorative motives to those folks who figure it has its positives as well as its negatives.

'Nuff said for me.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

In a real gunfight, the guy who shoots and hits will likely bury the guy who just shoots first -- and misses.

I agree with this in part. This outcome would be true if they both were equal in skill and mindset. If, however, shooter A could get five shots off with three hits and two misses in the time shooter B could get one shot off with a hit, regardless of who drew first the first two hits of shooter A just decided the outcome and shooter B is toast.

[Doc Shapiro]

With this argument, I'll go back to something that has been said many times.

We're playing a game.  This isn't a life/death scenario.  Want more emphasis on accuracy?  Put up a 2nd bank of targets and allow shooters to shoot these smaller/farther targets for a 5 second bonus.

Again, what exactly is the motivation for asking about 10 second misses?  What are you trying to accomplish?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Put up a 2nd bank of targets and allow shooters to shoot these smaller/farther targets for a 5 second bonus.

This is a good idea. It presents a positive motivation (reward) rather than a negative one (punishment).

[John Barleycorn]

 I did not expect so much imput on this thread! Thank you everyone some excellent points. No I guess improving others is not my job, and I sure as heck would not like to slow down matches. A second bank of targets with a bonus, I like it.

[Deadeye Don]

I did not expect so much imput on this thread! Thank you everyone some excellent points. No I guess improving others is not my job, and I sure as heck would not like to slow down matches. A second bank of targets with a bonus, I like it.

Just be glad you posted it here and not on the SASS Wire.  You would have seen sparks flying out of your computer if you had!   

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Just be glad you posted it here and not on the SASS Wire.  You would have seen sparks flying out of your computer if you had!   

LOL! 

Isn't that the truth.

[French Jack]

These posts are interesting, and express several views. 

Just my experience is that there is little actual difference. The penalty for misses does not really change how fast the stage is shot, it does change the final score.  Most shooters tend to shoot at their comfort level or slightly over, and that is what dictates how fast or how slowly a stage is shot. 

Stage directions and target placement always have more effect than time difference on penalties.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I did not expect so much imput on this thread! Thank you everyone some excellent points. No I guess improving others is not my job, and I sure as heck would not like to slow down matches. A second bank of targets with a bonus, I like it.

How about a smaller knockout or overlay target in the center of the "standard" target, where you get a one-second bonus if you hit it?  Now you're talking Western 3-Gun, and this particular setup increases overall accuracy without slowing things down.

As an example, I have only shot two clean SASS matches in the last 6 years, but I have shot nine clean W3G matches during those same 6 years. Back in August, in fact, I shot the 12 stages of the World Cup without a single miss.  The W3G matches I've attended have always had a higher percentage of clean shooters than the SASS matches that were shot on the same bays and using the same targets, but with different rules.  And the times are comparable too.

Just my two-hundreths of a dollar,

-- Nighteyes

[Camille Eonich]

  The W3G matches I've attended have always had a higher percentage of clean shooters than the SASS matches that were shot on the same bays and using the same targets, but with different rules.  And the times are comparable too.

Just my two-hundreths of a dollar,

-- Nighteyes

Just my opinion but I think that W3G attracts CA shooters who are a little more hard core than your average CAS.  That may account for the higher percentage of clean shooters at matches.  It does nothing to account for why you shoot more W3G matches clean than it does SASS matches though.  Maybe some of that comes from the ability to move around more and get in a "better" place for you, as an individual, to shoot from than normal SASS matches do.

Again, just MY thoughts and opinions and I have done no research to back up any of those thoughts and opinions so don't ask for proof because I have none.