Stampede Cords, are you man enough to wear a bonnet string?

[Grizzle Bear]

Looks like Pierre also has a sling on his rifle, an unusual item for a Mountain Man.

Grizzle Bear

[Ol Gabe]

Don't forget to check out the shadow under the rifle, the artist gives the impression that it landed on two rocks after being dropped by Pierre and was balancing there before falling to the ground. Nice touch by Miller.
Best regards and good Skinning!
'Ol Gabe

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

James, I sincerely hope you're not losing any sleep over this matter! 

I would agree with you that the term stampede string is probably a newer term ... just like the term wild rag.   It simply was not used by anyone I've found before the 20th century.  I'd also agree with St. George (isn't he easy to agree with?    that's a compliment, Bob ) that it was probably a regional thing and mostly from the southwest.  However, who's to say that a feller who spends a lot of time "down there" couldn't migrate up north and continue using the "wind string?"  That rationale, however, MAY fall under the "woulda if they coulda" form of documentation ... which doesn't document anything at all! 

Later, sports fans ...

[Advertising]

[James Hunt]

Steel Horse: Well, I appreciate your concern regarding my sleep - I have not really lost any but I have been a little restless lately !

I have been busy and not able to (invest) waste my work time fooling around with our endeavor, but during that time I took my stampede string off of my CMS hat and installed a bonnet string of brain tanned leather. I now understand why such a string was popular. It is extremely light, you can throw it in the hat, put the hat on your head, and you never now it is there. If you let it hang out the back of the hat, you don't know it is there. It holds your hat on your head just as well as the modern stampede string. It is superior in every way except perhaps the "western" look that we have assumed do to the 1930's rodeo cowgirl and early hollywood western use of them. I like it.

Regaring Miller's painting, very good post LG. Miller's work is considered very factual because he was "there" in 1838. The only artist to have attended an actual rendevous I believe. Looking closely I wonder if that is an actual "stampede string" or is it a single string from his hat? It is hard to tell because there is something else there that seems to imply that it might be a circular string. I have no actual reference to this, but in speaking with the individual running Clearwater Hats she said she had documentation for people of the fur trade era using a single string attached to their hat which they secured to their shirt in some way to keep their hat on, but no documentation for actual "stampede string" use during that period. I know this is using a "sutler" as a source - something we should not do - but I simply can not remember the references she sighted. I have seen this picture before but have never noticed that "string". Interesting.

I now throwing my bonnet string into my hat as I sit it on my head, and riding into the sunset.

[Delmonico]

So what is wrong with using a sutler as a source?  As long as they have done their research and are honest about what they know.  In fact that is true with any source, some who ain't done near the research of many of the sutlers.   Of course as always it is best to roll up ones sleeves and do a lot of yer research yerself, but that number I suspect is a small one.

[James Hunt]

Del: While you may use a sutler as the "source" of your source, you can not use a sutler's opinion as documentary evidence. That would be like using the Pfizer sales rep as the source for the safety and efficacy of Lipitor (I figure we are all of the crippled up old age to understand that analogy). However, we may use the sales rep's information on the research to then go and look at the literature, determine the value of the evidence, find further supportive evidence, make our own decision, cite the actual source and be prepared to defend it.

Now if we get it wrong, nobody is going to be the worst for wear, this is not medicine here, but I think if we wish to comment to the general public - go beyond strutting our knowledge to each other - we ought to be careful not to present our facts subsequent to the exposure to hearsay evidence.

I know that you mean what I am trying to say here; using a sutler as the provider of your reference source which is then reviewed and judged by oneself is acceptable. Agreed, we all look for easy ways to collect information - all graduate students love finding those great "review of the literature" papers - and I always keep my ears open for your source information, makes my job easier. Just thought we should clear it up for anyone else reading the post.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Mr Hunt,

Hear, hear...! Good philosophy on your part. No bluster & fuss, just the facts as best they can be ascertained is the way to go.

Monterey J. Brass

[Delmonico]

James what you may not realize is that everyone reading this open forum knew you were talkin' about the rules of the NCOWS Originals Class. As for what most would interpt it as, yes there are many sutlers who are some of the most knowledgable sources for imnformation around.  To discount this on a forum with out making fully understood what you mean is to just get another needless rumor floating around, not everyone reads each and every word written on an Internet board, but many talk to other people.  Myself or any of the other vendors who spend more time in research than the average dozen other people don't need this rumor floating around to escape beyond cyberspace like several others I won't bother meantioning have.  No maybe you are not totally resomsible for what someone only half reads, but by not meantioning that you mean the word of a sutler is not allowed for documentation for a NCOWS Originals perrsona, you leave that chance there. 

As for being really sure of documentation one must of been there, impossible of coures, or have seen the object properly dated of course.  Seen it in a catalog that was properly dated, or seen in in an unaltered photo properly dated.  Meantion in a book or twelve is still often running on faith even with source information, unless you really check out every source in the book.  How many have really done that?  As an example there are several things I've seen meantioned in several books, different sources are listed as where the information came from.  When traced all the way back, yep all originating from one single source.  Of course it really all boils down to the fact there are those who interpt history based on much study and those whe rely on the work of others.

[Books OToole]

Of course it really all boils down to the fact there are those who interpt history based on much study and those whe rely on the work of others.

We're going to discuss this a bit in the May-June Reference Library column.

Books

[Delmonico]

Sounds good Books, how many times have you found several books that say one thing and several more that say another on just one topic?  Sometimes it's almost as bad as some internet information.  

[James Hunt]

Del: I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here, I read your response several times and maybe I am missing something. Maybe we have a disagreement and if so, we are going to show the visitors to this open forum how NCOWS members cordially disagree and then part with best wishes for the other fellow - that is important for NCOWS and this forum.  Let me itemize my thoughts:

1/ I think we are talking about what constitutes "evidence" of a particular item or event, or we might say what constitutes a legitimate source for that information.

1/ The Originals Class of NCOWS has no, and should have no impact on this discussion. For those who might not know what that class is it is a subclass of NCOWS members who choose to develop a persona based on a specific time in history, place themselves in that time period, equip themselves appropriatly for that time period, provide written documentation (source material) for the persona, and then have that documentation peer reviewed by another original. What does all this mean? Nothing. It is just great fun for those of us who choose to do so. Most of us try and keep a low profile in fear of being stamped as a "no-it-all". The vast majority of NCOWS has no interest in this approach, and many of them know far more than I. No original wants to turn NCOWS into an all originals club. However, by the rules of our organization, each NCOWS member if asked is expected to cite the documentation for anything worn or shot - and that is what seperates us from other WAS folks. That documentation may include items already approved by NCOWS. That is the rules as established - I believe. Good for us.

2/ I have read, and re-read my post. It was not my intent, nor do I believe I did impune the intellectual capcity or core knowledge of any sutler (vendor of period goods). Most of whom provide us with a valuable service.

3/ I had no idea you were a vendor, I would certainly not wish to impune your profession - you know alot of stuff.

4/ We need to be clear on what constitutes evidence or proof if you will. We don't have to come up with a definition, the academic process has developed a clear paradigm for that process. We must accept this process, the scientific method, because it is the basis for all research - literature, arts, science law, history. Anything else is just unsupported opinion.

This process requires a method of study that is then reviewed by others before being accepted as fact. The basis for any determination is peer review by those whose career may be permanently damaged by sloppy work. Those sources are what constitute evidence. They may wrong, but over time the process will allow them to get it right more than not.

I suppose you and I could follow this process, but as those who are but amateurs, even gifted ones, there is the risk we would fail to get the process right and in addition we would have trouble getting it presented before those who would review, discuss, and accept or reject it. That is why we cite thier work, instead of our "opinion".

5/ Therefore, unless a vendor has followed the process of study that has resulted in peer (professional) review, we can not cite a them as a source. We may take their advice for sure, but saying James Hunt said these are what those buffalo hunters wore, won't wash. That is a good rule to follow if you are a original, and it is a good rule to follow if you are an NCOWS member documenting a pair of boots.

6/ There is one more thing, and I say this now knowing you are a vendor so I want you to understand this it is not directed at you. There is a reason doctor's are not allowed to own drugstores anymore, and the same healthy skeptisism should be applied to vendors - and I think the honest ones, that would be you, would agree. Take the advice, but knowing that we are in an organization that requires documentary proof, follow up with a qualified unbiased source.

You know alot, and if I remember the story have been bestowed the title mongrel historian. So continue to give good advice, help the new guy, show him/her how to do research, mentor them. And then tell them how to document their items. If they should say "cause James Hunt said so", be patient, describe what evidence means and direct them on the proper course.

We have drifted far from the topic of this thread, and this is "my final word on the subject" (Tom Horn as played by Steve McQueen). You have the final say.

Best Regards, James Hunt 

[O.T. Buchannan]

Years ago, I did a bit of research, but wasn't able to find any 'Stampede Strings' for our time period.  I DID see several sources for a simple leather string, or thong (as James Hunt originally pointed out in his first post), and that is what I use, and have used for a long time.

I am involved in Living History for two time periods:  Colonial (during the time of the American Revolution), and Old West.  When I got started in Old West, and especially when I started doing research, the fact of the matter is that most of the sutlers (at least the ones I was able to find through advertisements, etc.) simply didn't offer items that matched up to the research...and to be honest, many 'Cowboy Action Shooting' vendors still don't offer correct items...

With that said, the situation NOW is much better than it was THEN, and some of the sutlers now days ARE in fact offering good, period items.  So, I won't make a blanket statement about sutlers, but instead I would say that they must each be considered individually...

If Delmonico offers up an opinion on a historical item, I KNOW that his opinion is based on research and study he has done.  Likewise, James Hunt put forth his thoughts on the 'Stampede String' (thoughts which I am in full agreement with), and like Delmonico, he based it on something he studied.  It doesn't mean that the source of study was perfect, it simply means that the individual took the time to study first, and THEN put forth his opinion based on that research.

When it comes to taking advice from sutlers, or individuals (myself included) I would simply ask that individual or sutler if they can either provide the documentation, or at least point me in the direction to which such info could be found.  If the individual or sutler is unable or unwilling to do that (provided I am an individual TRYING to be 'reasonably' historically correct), then I would back off on purchasing that item until I had more information...

[Delmonico]

Many of the items offered by the main stream companies are suitable, some are not, one must rely on both your study and a knowagable vendor who has done there research.  The problem is that many folks are not as concered about PC as they are look, a manufactor has to be able to please a diverse group of people and can not make just certain items for folks who want to be totally PC. Small custom makers, some who are just part time and are doing it as a labor of love can.

I don't know about other of the really large vendors, but I would say at least half of what I sell does not go to any kind of ren-actor or Cas shooter of any form.  I do a lot of clothes for wedding, proms and the like, these outfits often blend the old and the modern and is a very sharp look which gets more popular every year.  Being so close to what one can call Cowboy country affects this a lot, these folks love tradition.  I sell a lot of the canvas frontier style pants to farriers, they are durable and easy to move around in.  I have sold bib shirts to bull riders who want a bit of a different flash.  I've sold old style boots of several brand to both motorcycle riders and real cowboys who wear them to work. 

That is why when dealing with a new customer I need to find out what the direction they want to go with the outfit.  Have sold a lot of stand up collar shirts, string ties, nice vests and frock coats that get worn by a groom with 20X black Wranglers, fancy pointed to ostrich boots and a George Strait type hat, not a mix that I would wear, but very western looking and far better looking than some of the rented Tuxes I have seen at weddings.  Heck I've even sold very PC outfits to a couple of Kawasaki execs who are at the plant here in Lincoln and want something neat to take back home. 

I also work with several theature groups and what don't look right at spitting distance is often fine at stage distance, many of these are schools and such on a tight buget.

I've lost count of the carrige driving folks I have outfitted, sometimes I have a hand in both the wedding party and the carriage driver that takes them to the reception.  Have even sold several pairs tall black boots to Santas.

An intersting job to say the least and the time when I don't have customers I have time to do research, I've spent I know several hundred hours over the years studing the on-line photo collections like the Butcher one at work when I have nothing I need to do.  This gives me far more time to do this than the average person would.

I know of quite a few other vendors, several who also are on CAS-City who are some of the best experts in their field.  We take a lot of pride in what we do.

[O.T. Buchannan]

Well Del, I'm going to take my hat off to you and THANK YOU for that last post.  You spoke from the perspective of a vendor, and made me see it in a way that I don't normally see it.

Personally, it would not occur to me to purchase an item that is NOT historically correct.  However, many Cowboy Action Shooters, and many 'western enthusiasts' may simply want 'western like' items, and historical accuracy simply may be a much lower priority for them.  As a vendor, you have to be able to cater to that, so I can understand and respect where you are coming from.  Since I'm not in the vendor business, I don't normally see things from that angle.

So, once again, I believe that it is all the more important for an individual interested in historical accuracy to do their own research, and to purchase or make items that match up to that research.  When purchasing from a vendor, it is all the more important to ask questions about the historical background of an item.....

[St. George]

Something to remember...

There is absolutely no form of 'peer review' for a vendor -the bottom line is to make a profit...

That's why - when contemplating a purchase - one does his own research and buys from dealers with solid reputations.

A sutler/dealer who wants to keep his customer base happy and coming back for more will buy the books, do the research and seek out manufacturers who can produce the 'right' sort of product.

He's selling his knowledge and expertise as a form of his word that the item is what he says it is.

This requires no small degree of effort on his part, if he's going to build this reputation - and is deserving of respect - as well as an even more valuable thing - 'word-of-mouth' advertising...

In the end - if 'you' are the buyer - then 'you' need to do what's needed to 'know' about the item in question and seek out an equally knowledgeable dealer who can supply it.

Perhaps that's why many in NCOWS and C&WAS make many of their own things - because no one 'can' supply what they need at a reasonable price, because of limited appeal.

'Authenticity' can be expensive as hell - but then - we all know that.

That said - a dealer has to make money to stay in business...

With that in mind - he may have some stock that's not authentic - but looks 'good enough for who it's for' - and it's surprising how many folks that will satisfy.

If he has, or can get 'good stuff' and a solid reputation for being fair and knowledgeable - then he's probably a guy to do business with.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[O.T. Buchannan]

Very well said St. George.  Very good dialog from both sides of the issue!  Anyway, I'm still going to stick to my simple leather string....

[Ol Gabe]

All,
St. George's above comments give us some positive insight on vendors that is unfortunately missed by many starting out in the CAS hobby, to wit, "...the bottom line is to make a profit...He's selling his knowledge and expertise as a form of his word that the item is what he says it is....an even more valuable thing 'word-of-mouth' advertising...a dealer has to make money to stay in business...With that in mind - he may have some stock that's not authentic - but looks 'good enough for who it's for' - and it's surprising how many folks that will satisfy. If he has, or can get 'good stuff' and a solid reputation for being fair and knowledgeable - then he's probably a guy to do business with."
Good logic to follow S.G., and it might be of service to our fellow Pards & Pardettes here, both new and old (and e-friends all!), to let them know that even though a new or well-known dealer/vendor, and this means virtually ANY dealer/vendor, may use the established and accepted national business accumen to belong to this or that org and subscribe to their situation-specific logic as well as serving on those self-same Boards for additional hobbyist recognition, that they may not be as reliable in their own research or endeavors as they are espousing under your above collective points.
Now, this comment is not intended to cast any aspersions on any known dealer/vendor except to state that there are those that are only in it for the money as S.G. has already established, and that they should ostensibly be avoided in the CAS hobbyists search for authentic acquisitions. How does one solve this conundrum? Simple: follow the Del, O.T.,S.G., B.R.S., J.H., B.O., etc. , concept to keep you out of trouble when buying anything for your new CAS hobby stuff: Research, research, research. Follow this simple concept and you'll be singing the joys of 'The Originals' in the morning dew!
Best regards and see you on the Firing Line 'looking gooooooood'!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925

[Delmonico]

I want to add a bit for thought, take for example Wah Maker who everyone seems to either hate or love, but are the largest maker of this type clothing.  They are a division of Skully Leather Company an old line company about a 100 years old.  Wa Maker and Skully Range Wear are divisions of the company.  Some of their clothing is very good as far as PC although one might at times want to replace buttons which should not be a big deal to be "more correct."  Scully of course will do what they need to keep these divisions making money, just like GM will do with the Buick Division, if it don't make money their is no reason to keep it, period!

A small vendor making stuff at home part time can oftem make nothing but totally PC items, they don't have to worry about selling it if they are good at it, they can sell more than they can make.  How ever few will continue if they are not making at least what they consider a reasonable profit.  And of course they can not supply to total market for this type clothing.  One can of course learn to make your own, the route I took at first and still do when I want something I can't buy.

The whole bottom line is few will do this work if there is not some profit involved, that is what they teach in "Bizzness 101."  In fact isn't that the first lesson the teach "if ya don't make a profit, ya are doin' it wrong."   If we want these larger companies to make more and more of what we want, we need to convince by example, not nagging that this is the way to look, heck have a bunch from your NCOWS Club attend a shoot at the local SASS Club all decked out PC.  Be nice, don't say nasty things about SASS, have fun or at least pretend you have fun and like a stray puppy you feed, I bet some of them will follow you home.  Guess what, these folks if they like what they see will want more PC stuff.  If the demand is there, the companies will make it.  Heck go back 30 years ago be fore any form of WAS and this stuff was even more scarce because there was no demand for it.

I'm going to add this, not to jab anyone, but lets say yesterday you bought a number and today you found out you won a multi-million dollar lottery.  Now be honest here folks, raise your hand up high and speak up loud, would you still keep your job you now have? 

I think there is a good chance I am going to be the only one in this group.  I would most likely take a few more weekends off in the warmer weather though.

[Cuts Crooked]

.  I DID see several sources for a simple leather string, or thong and that is what I use, and have used for a long time.

Uh...I'm not sure I wanna know this..........  

[Delmonico]

Uh...I'm not sure I wanna know this..........  

Cuts and James, the PC term for that is G-String, a word that came into common usage in the American version of the English language in the late 1870's to early 1880's.  Sorry I have not investigated the reason it became a part of our language very far.  However one of the brand of corsets I sell has such a device with them and of course someone had to ask if G-Strings were PC.

BTW any grocery store should have 72 inch leather bootstrings for about $4 for two incase any one needs a handy ready source.