This is not NCOWS

[Trap]

 In a recent thread ,it was said that the SASS wire is not SASS. Well this is not NCOWS. NCOWS is generally a very friendly, helpful group. Yes many of us are passionate about history and therefore sometimes a little short-fused about our passions. Sometimes we forget that most people are introduced to WAS througth SASS, so they have a totally different concept of "the game". What we need to remember is that there are many in SASS who would fit right in and enjoy NCOWS more than SASS , but they may be introduced to NCOWS here. First impressions last. Many in NCOWS started out in SASS and would not go back, myself included. With me it was an immediate match, but maybe only because I had already been in re-enacting other time periods. For some it will be a slower transition. I didn't care for history until I was out of school.
  I guess what I'm trying to say is, lets not scare off potential, future members by being over zealous. You get more flies with honey than vinegar, all that stuff. I think Gold Canyon Kid? said do your own thing as long as you follow the rules. As long as anyone is willing to follow the rules of the group they want to shoot with, That's all that can be asked. I think some may have missed that and it totally changes the context of what he said. Anyway I have rambled long enough.     jt

[James Hunt]

Your point is well taken Trap. My primary interest is (getting as close as I can to) reliving history. That said I joined NCOWS some years back because I liked the rules. I don't want to change any of those rules. Let us all live under the intent of the founders, only adding amendments along the way as needed to complete their intent. It is acknowledged that most are here to shoot first and foremost, that is fine, now let us do it with firearms, accoutrements, and clothing of our period - as was the intent. NCOWS provides a medium for SASS members who want to do their shootin in a historically correct atmosphere.

That there is now an Orignals category is frosting on the cake for me, not right for everyone, but a step beyond for those who want to take history a bit further.

[Camille Eonich]

I sure don't understand why all of the hostility toward SASS and SASS members.  Some just want to shoot the old style guns and dress up in some type of cowboy clothes.  Their heroes were Gene Autry and the Lone Ranger, the Duke and Clint Eastwood.  It never was about authenticity and never will be.  I don't know if NCOWS uses a timer or not when people are shooting but they do in SASS and that makes it a competition.  People are naturally competitive some more than others.  Some people slick up their guns or play around with their loads so that they can shave seconds off their time while others use the internet to research their costumes and accoutrements that they would probably never find if they didn't use the internet.


I wonder if those older member of NCOWS that don't have any desire to learn to use a PC or to get online think that you guys are gamers because you show up with all your fancy stuff just so and so that you researched and purchased online.  Do they call you gamers because you spend so much time here online swapping research links and links to pictures and online stores?  I wonder....

[Advertising]

[Grizzle Bear]

I wonder if those older member of NCOWS that don't have any desire to learn to use a PC or to get online think that you guys are gamers because you show up with all your fancy stuff just so and so that you researched and purchased online.  Do they call you gamers because you spend so much time here online swapping research links and links to pictures and online stores?  I wonder....

Knowledge, like gold, is where you find it.  Whether it comes from a library or the Internet does not change the value.

Grizzle Bear

[James Hunt]

Camille: I don't think any of us have anything against the SASS mindset, whatever that is. I shoot CMSA and the clothing standards are about the same as SASS (if you think they wore it and it looks cool on you - go for it as long as you got a hat on). It's great that those people have a place and venue to shoot and there are certainly more of them than us. But understand that it is not satisfying to most of us to shoot with them.

A week ago Sunday I shot my first SASS match. Didn't intend to but a group of Michigan ner'do wells, civil war types, and potential NCOWS members shoot with them because they have nowhere else to go. They are welcomed but shoot pretty much in their own posse, looking like they stepped out of a Brady photograph, I'm sure the rest of the SASS boy's are thinking "what's wrong with them". Anyway, after fouling both air and ears with full .45 BP loads in pistol and rifle not to mention 80 g. of BP in my old double, the next guy up was blazing away with his .38 little whatever in rifle and pistol. My kid's old pellet gun made more noise. His pistol shooting was faster than anything I can do with a 1911, but so what? We were both probably wondering how the other guy could possibly be having fun. Me because he was shooting pip squeek loads and him becuase I was so slow. To boot he looked like a WahMaker catalog and in his eyes I must have looked pretty shabby. I'm sure we were both satisfied with ourselves. If I never shoot next to him again, and he neve shoots next to me again, niether of us will have missed a thing.

Point being, SASS and NCOWS purpose is pretty dissimilar and that begats dissimilar people. Like all dissimilar people it is our tendency to look at each other, and occasionaly speak about each other with a total lack of understanding. In the context of life, it is not really important. Let us contiue our lives seperatly, snickering at each other, greatfull that we can both still fool around with firearms. Having heard the "People" speak last Nov 7 both of us need to make sure the NRA membership is current. Both those who shoot mouse guns quickly  and those that shoot real guns slowly  .

[Delmonico]

Good point James, all "honest" shooters need to stick together, don't matter if you like to shoot AR-15's or flinters, we're all in the same boat, we don't need to rock it.

[Camille Eonich]

James you make a lot of good points about dissimilarities and the unease that they can cause but there are a lot of similarities too and that is where we should be concentrating our efforts.  NCOWS doesn't like SASS shooters, SASS shooters are always putting down IPSIC shooters, Skeet shooters look down their noses at all other shooting disciplines.  It's just crazy.  Appreciate the shooting disciplines for what they are and then you may even enjoy some of the ways that they are different.


I know that I think that it is really neat that NCOWS members go to the levels of authenticity that they do.  The Originals fascinate me!  I would love to shoot an NCOWS match sometime BECAUSE it is different.  Why do some people want to put distances and and act on putting distances between these groups of people that really have more in common not?


And I'll say that when posting in this thread I am replying more to the thread that this one is directed at than anything.  Read it.  That thread put off two people, at least, that were posting here and having a good time doing so.  


Trap, thanks for this thread.  It is a good one and it does happen that people get so wrapped up in the forums sometimes that they forget that that posting about shooting rather than shooting is not what it's all about.

[O.T. Buchannan]

Trap, I am in complete agreement.  James, very well said.  Whether you are a SASS member, or an NCOWS member, the reality is that you are a member of EITHER of those organizations (or both) because you are finding some level of 'personal' enjoyment in what they have to offer.....and in many ways, it is as simple as that...we are just a bunch of folks out to enjoy ourselves.

Getting angry at the guy over there because his idea of enjoyment is different than yours gets old after a while.  If the guy over there comes over to ask what our game is about, then show some courtesy and friendliness, invite him in, and explain it to him.  If he criticizes?  We can STILL show courtesy and friendliness, and explain it to him.  If he STILL is not buying what we are selling?  Then shake his hand and bid him a good day............but we don't have to be 'angry' about it.....

[Books OToole]

We all tend to shake our heads and roll our eyes at those who pursue hobbies that we don't.
I can't see the sense in whacking a little ball around a pasture or racing pick-up trucks.

The beauty of this country is that we can all pursue happiness in our own way.

In other parts of the world they kill each other because they interpret the Koran differently.
In my little community we have Baptists, Methodists, Lutherins, Catholics, Presbeterians and Episcapalians all living in harmony.

From an IPSC shooters point of view, SASS and NCOWS are the same.

Books

[Dr. Bob]

Camille,

I don't think that most NOCWS members dislike SASS members.  The ones that I have shot with are nice folks and for the most part don't dress much different than the majority of NCOWS members that I have seen.  I'm not very interested in shooting in SASS because I really think that two guns are enough for me.  I have a shotgun and can borrow another revolver if I want, but I'm really happy with the NCOWS working cowboy class.  SASS does not have a similar class.  SASS has way more members than NCOWS, so they must be doing something right.

I do agree with you that there is no good reason not to live and let live, even here on the Internet where communication is too impersonal.  Many wouldn't say what the type if they were face to face.  And it would be a lot easier to get your specific points made when you can see the other guy/gal's face and hear the ton of their voice. 

If you want to come out to the KVC TWO GUN Shoot next May, I will be happy to receive your guns and pick you up at the KC airport and take you to Garnett.  Have an extra tent and bed if you want to camp.  Probably another if you bring your hubby!


Dr. Bob     NCOWS Senate Candidate

[Silver Creek Slim]

I am stating this upfront. I was a SASS member Sept. 2001 to Sept. 2005. I have been an NCOWS member since Oct. 2004. Most of the CAS community I see face to face are SASS members. That is because most of the clubs in WI are SASS clubs. Some of these shooters are also NCOWS members. For the first few years of my CAS experience, I would shoot with the same small circle of people no matter which club I went to. The last couple of years I have started to shoot with others outside of this small group. It is a good way of getting to know more people. I don't look down on someone that is dressed like Howdy Doody or Hopalong Cassidy. If they want to dress like that and are having fun, it is just fine with me. Ya should've seen me when I started this game. There are two questions we need to ask ourselves in this game. The most important is: Are we being safe? And following on the heels of the first one: Are we all having fun? Some may think it is fun to urinate in someone else's boots. Do you think the person who owns those boots is having fun?
I am in this game to have fun. I love the buck and roar of my .45 Colt BP loads. I don't care if the shooter next to me is shooting .32 S&W. If that person is having fun and is playing within the rules, why should anyone care what that person is shooting and/or wearing?

Slim

[Irish Dave]

Trap, James, I couldn't agree more.
There is no reason for ill-will between the shooting disciplines. Lord, there's few enough of us as it is!!

As for SASS and NCOWS, I find that the animosity that sometimes shows is on an individual level, not an institutional one. I know of no one in NCOWS leadership that looks snobbishly at SASS and have never found that attitude among SASS clubs toward NCOWS. There are, however, certain individuals in both outfits who just don't care for the other group. Who knows why? Maybe it has to do with some obscure bad personal experience somewhere back down the trail. Nothing an organization can do about that but try to be patient and considerate of others.

For myself, I am a life member of both and glad of it.
I have many many friends who are SASS shooters and they're all good folks -- and many of them could be looked up to as examples of NCOWS authenticity (if they were in NCOWS, of course).

I personally prefer the rules, regs, guns and social aspects of NCOWS to those of SASS, but have had a great time at events with both groups. There is a difference, I believe, in their overall philosophies, but that's fine. Let everyone find the place where they're most comfortable and enjoy themselves.

[Camille Eonich]

Thanks for the offer Bob.


I know that it's not MOST that show the hostility and dislike towards SASS shooters.  It's the same in all disciplines with just a few acting ignorant and bull headed.  It's just frustrating no matter what the person's preferred shooting sport, to hear them put down other shooting disciplines because in the end that's what it really amounts to.

[Black River Smith]

I did not post on that other listing because I saw it too late.  I will be stating an observation about that SASS forum posting later in this statement.  People may not like it but it is just my observation and others will find it interesting.

First off these Forum sites as Trap has stated are not the total representation of either club.  They are a subset of the group.  But because they contain the groups title most people/outsiders think they represent the clubs philosophy.  Along those lines we must watch our words and our discussions.

I find no fault in FCK general/intial posting.  After reading the SASS posting I was amazed at the attitudes people were exhibiting too.  Since FCK posted it in the NCOWS forum I think he felt he was talking to 'mainly' NCOWS members.  But as seen, outsiders do visit and do have opinions about their side of the fence.  FCK's response only pointed out NCOWS side of the article.  Because we vote in NCOWS, vote on our 'rule changes', we do not follow/allow the 'self/free lance interpretation of the rules' idiom.  The "Let people do what they want (or the) you can't tell me what to do'' beliefs/desires do not fit in the NCOWS By-Laws.  EDITTED I started to type this before Joss posting.  His statement is full of truths.

But we all must understand that CAS/WAS began with SASS.  If it were not for US Grant and the Judge, then my interests would not have been fulfilled at a local, but not SASS, facility in the early 1990's.  Also not all local facilities follow the strictest interruptations either.  If it were not for Mike Venturino the sport would not have been promoted as much as it was in the early days.  The SASS growth spirt as I understand it did not occur until 1998 or 1999, this is a fact and stated over and over again.  So a question to the new supporters of the present day SASS philosophy, who or what group built/fed the CAS image from 1981 to 1998?

OTB and I shot CAS/WAS before NCOWS began.  The shooting club did not follow strict SASS either and we were just public shooters.  We ultimately gravitated to a National club that met our interests the best.  All people do this too, shows a desire to belong to something bigger.  One club is not better than the other but they must remain separate to define their distinctions and therefore their markets.

And now the observation.  MV's article actually had two parts to it.  One was the minimum load comments but the other was the lack of difficulty designed into the scenerios.  My observation is Why was this not brought up over on the SASS wire posting?  Why are the SASS shooters only concerned about there loads?  Is SASS majority tired of the same old ping, ping, ping?  And therefore the min. loaders must yell more often and loudest?

If 'you are tired of it' then I say to You 'come on over to the NCOWS side of the fence'.   Ooooppps sorry there for the brief advertisement/sales pitch.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thanks you, Joss & B.R. Smith.    Here's the "big picture" IMHO. As Joss so eloquently stated, the "door was thrown open" for years in NCOWS and as a result culminated in last year's "house cleaning" and the resultant NTR debacle. Look at a potential NCOWS "suitor" like you would someone who wishes to marry your daughter. Do you QUALIFY that man BEFORE or do you wait until divorce court to say "I knew he wasn't right for you"? NCOWS appeal lies in its desire to be authentic. I remember when to say you were an NCOWS member gave one a feeling of esprit de corps, as the French say. When that is dead and you throw open the doors to anyone without explaining this to them then not only do you do them a disservice, but also a greater disservice to this organization. The allure is to be a more perfect CAS organization and we can never be greater than our most unauthentic member. We need to be HONEST with potential members as to AVOID another "debacle" in the future. We will fail miserably & unquestionably by trying to be everything to everyone as SASS does. They have the market cornered. I used to belong to SASS and may join again, but I always knew what to expect at a SASS shoot. It was like a "Walmart" of CAS. We need to be the exclusive "boutique" that people envy and want to be seen at. But you have to follow OUR rules.

There are many in NCOWS (as in any other body of people) who will avoid all confrontation at any cost to appease the few. This mindset will send us into a death spiral IMHO. Read the rules, enforce them fairly & unequivocally or take up golf.

[Camille Eonich]

Joss, I read all three putrid pages and want to vomit.    It's so funny that all the naysayers are total unrepentant gamers & will do anything short of killing to keep SASS "Westworld". Absolutely incredible.  It's like a disease. They have no love for history nor the era and are using CAS to mould their own image of a West they know nothing of in a direction they know not where.

SASS is not NCOWS.  CAS is NOT NCOWS.  It's all just fantasy!  This is the 21st century!!  Play, have fun and don't let it get to you so bad.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I always was a NCOWS member, never SASS.  ALL my shooting has been done under SASS conditions.  I see & know both sides.  I agree that we are all part of the same movement, and I tentatively proposed a "get-together in THE SHOOTIST a couple of years back in my letter on overweight cowboys.

The reason Mike Venturino's article struck a chord with me, besides the respect I have for him, is about the tendency towards an equipment race in CAS.  Years ago I was in IPSC, and now i don't recognize the sport.  Other games suffer from the same tendency.  I am not criticizing gamers personally because they are only being human, only that allowing the equipment race go uncontrolled will eventually harm us all. (More focus on the "Nut that holds the Butt")

As an amateur historian  (lower case throughout!) I favour NCOWS for personal reasons.  Perhaps Gold Canyon Kid, the fellow that caused so much of an uproar was correct, just play the game by the rules as set out.  Yes Kid, I enjoy both the historical gear, AND shooting!   Unfortunately, The Kid didn't realize he was treading all over raw nerves still festering from some of our own recent debates.

WHEN THE CHIPS ARE DOWN YA BETTER WATCH YER STEP!  from "The Ballad of Cow Patty"

[Kaycee]

I generally don't post in here but thought I would put my .02 in anyway.
I started out shooting NCOWS in 2001, but now I shoot primarily SASS and am the president of the Cedar Valley Vigilantes, Morristown MN.

Do I really care how a person is dressed or what they shoot, not at all. There are many folks that love to shoot, but are only able to afford so much and the guns come first. And that alone can tax anyones budget. And yes I know all about WC, but even that is not a cure all to the money problem. Good firarms are not inexpensive, and nothing is worse than watching a new shooter fight with firearms that don't work or fit them properly. So if they have managed to come out and shoot with us, we are aware of the fact that one shoot is all they can afford. So the first aspect is will they have fun, second is will they come back. In time we have found that they will try to emulate the people thay are around, and it is not long and they will start to dress the part. If that takes years so be it, they still went home with a smile.

I have read from many post that you do not like uncomplicated stages. At our club like many SASS clubs there is a reason for this. Stages are written on a 90/90/90 basis. Remember the smile part! That means that we want 90% of the shooters to hit 90% of the targets 90% of the time. And all stages are written so that an average shooter can complete in 30-35 seconds. When you run two shoots a month that average 75 shooters if you have uneven stages it backs everything up. That is not saying that everything is 10/10/4 just so that they take the same average time. The goal is that the shooters are happy and want to come back. But that is what SASS is about.

But NCOWS is NCOWS and what does is it's own doing. But as a person who reads posts these as a basic outsider. There is a lot more reasons to stay away then to join. Numerous times I read post that alienate individuals or the "you need to remember this is NCOWS". It makes NCOWS look like a bunch of pompus jerks. Let them decide if it is for them, don't make their decision here.

One last thing, look at your NCOWS average age. Where is NCOWS going to be in 10 years. What has been done to make it look appealing to people under 40. Most of them never grew up on westerns and live at a faster pace, how do plan to catch a few of them?

All done
KC
SASS 48970
NCOWS 1662

[Black River Smith]

I will add one more point here and one that most don't want to admit.

Camille you are correct ''the game is all just fantasy''.  To some it is just fantasy and fun and just shooting old style guns with friends.

But in SASS that fantasy equates to a Winners title and promotiional money and State/Regional and National recognition and more money and/or a business venture and/or a way to make an income playing or become rich faster than a regular job.  This is what differentiates Some SASS Players from the above personages that are in it just for fun.

It relates to seeing the brass ring.  Working towards that brass ring.  And as your signature indicates Winning is important, sometime no matter what it takes or what you have to do to get there.  Just get that brass ring.  Business -- is Cut Throat; Competitive;  You do whatever it takes to get the deal;  Don't take No for an answer; The Better, most efficient wins; Only the Strong Survives.  Any of these statements sound right.  This is way different than just friendly competition.

But then someone comes along (anyone) MV and wants to alter the brass ring or change its location.  The comments become  'But I worked too hard to get to this point, no one can change the rules now; leave things as they are; don't change anything;  accept things as they are; why should you care what I do;  you can't tell me how I have to;   all because that is not fair to me.'  I have worked too hard to get to this point.  Sound somewhat familiar.

But as you stated, it all just fantasy; this is the 21 century.  Play, have fun and don't let it get to you so bad.  If the rules where changed it would not be a big deal to me or most of us.  Change all you want, I applaud change and the more interesting and challenging the better because it is just a game.  But make shooting full size firearm similiar to the Cork gun or BB gun I had as a child, (just so I can win prize money) well I grew up and became more realistic.  Thank you but no thanks.

So I ask you who are the ones that are letting it get to them?


Editted:  Kaycee I started typing before your post but.  Your post fits into my statement perfectly.  You are running a business not a game.  The customer is always right, (I don't care how they look or what they do). Make the customer happy.(90% hit what they aim at most of the time).   Make them think they are getting what they want and need.(Good reliable shooting experience and make them believe they are good).   Get them in the door and out so more customers can get in.(In and out is 30 - 35 sec.)  And above all make them want to come back for more.  Kaycee you stated it exactly this is SASS.  The game / shooting experience has become money.  To me this is not being pompus jerk but the honest truth.  In my perspective your not-for-profit or for-profit general membership shooting club has found its' profit making market.  Good for you.

[James Hunt]

Kaycee: You are right about the average age of NCOWS. If SASS is attracting young shooters good for them. But as a member driven non-profit, growth should not dictate our mission statement. We can afford to fade quietly into the sunset when youngsters no longer take an interest in frontier history (perhaps it will change and one day our kids will dress in a historically correct manner sit down in front of a black box and shoot it out online seeing who has a faster thumb and call it experimental archeology). We have no property to support nor old directors to support in their retirement (we might want to do something for Irish Dave here pretty soon), as SASS does. We can go with dignity. Without a whimper. And without declaring bankrupcty.

But then again, overall the shooting sports are in a delcine as society becomes more urban and the anti-gun message filters thru the public schools and polictical circles. But live evolves, perhaps at some point younger folks will become interested in reliving their past first and figure out the shooting stuff is actually fun.