Elk County Forum

Monies to be paid to Elk Co. under The Payment In Lieu of Taxes (PILOT) entered by the county commission and the wind project folks on December 31, 2008 involve some interesting facts that give rise to some interesting questions:  

Fact 1. The land involved is exempted from property taxation in accordance with K.S.A. 79-201:

Chapter 79: Taxation
Article 2: Property Exempt From Taxation
Statute 79-201: Property exempt from taxation; religious, educational, literary, scientific, benevolent, alumni association, veterans' organization or charitable purposes; parsonages; community service organizations providing humanitarian services; electric generating property using renewable technology; landfill gas and production property. The following described property, to the extent herein specified, shall be and is hereby exempt from all property or ad valorem taxes levied under the laws of the state of Kansas:...


...Eleventh.   For all taxable years commencing after December 31, 1998, all property actually and regularly used predominantly to produce and generate electricity utilizing renewable energy resources or technologies. For purposes of this section, "renewable energy resources or technologies" shall include wind, solar, photovoltaic, biomass, hydropower, geothermal and landfill gas resources or technologies.


Fact 2.  If the legislature modifies or repeals that statute, the PILOT payments are reduced by any amount of property taxes the wind farm ends up having to pay.  (See Paragraph 15, PILOT agreement)

Fact 3.  Owners of the land leased for the wind farm may enjoy two important benefits:  1) Potential reduction or elimination of their property tax payments on the land, and;  2)  Receipt of lease payments as should be.

Fact 4.  If the wind farm is ever required to pay property taxes, the 'wind farm money' begins to shrink.

Since the 'wind farm money' being paid to Elk County actually replaces the tax revenues lost to tax exemption, the amount available for things like tax relief or a golf course may be less than anticipated or non-existent depending on current tax receipts.  Further, since the wind farm money replaces taxes already accounted for in the county budget, the only extra available would be that above what land owners are currently paying to the county.

This all leaves 3 questions of interest:

1.  How much, if any, is the 'extra' money (amounts above exempted tax losses) to be received by the county?  

2.  Will the affected land owners see their property taxes shrink (and by how much) or evaporate, and have they had any unique influence in the overall project (placement negotiations, PILOT terms, etc.)?

3.  Do citizens who are busy having 'conversation meetings' really know how much will be available for their desired projects?  That might be important so their recommendations are realistic.

What are the answers?

That's a lot of good questions. Does anyone out there know any answers?
I.d like to hear some.

I really don't understand all that, not trying to be dumb or anything, but are you saying that if the in lieu of tax thing doesn't pan out that Elk county won't be making any money?

As of right now, to me the windfarm people are creating money flow in Elk County. The office is up town and there are lots of new guys coming in to work on it daily. We have a rental house and have been flooded with people wanting it. Isn't this a good thing?????

Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on April 23, 2011, 07:24:35 PM
I really don't understand all that, not trying to be dumb or anything, but are you saying that if the in lieu of tax thing doesn't pan out that Elk county won't be making any money?

As of right now, to me the windfarm people are creating money flow in Elk County. The office is up town and there are lots of new guys coming in to work on it daily. We have a rental house and have been flooded with people wanting it. Isn't this a good thing?????

Essentially its a zero flow. No taxes are being collected and what they pay is covering the tax loss.  So if they reduce the payement it will quickly go into the negative resulting in the rest of the taxpayers supporting yet again another for profit company on the taxpayer dime.

Quote from: Lookatmeknow!! on April 23, 2011, 07:24:35 PM
. Isn't this a good thing?????

On the surface it looks terrific. The farmers that own the land make money and that's good.
The majority of the money made off the electricity will go to Italy. The company is owned by a company in Italy
and the Italian Government own 1/3 of the company. Is that good for our country?

An oil well would look much better.

Besides, the whole wind power thing does not seem right.  When the gov't is involved, you're gonna lose.

I am sure this is on the forum somewhere, but I want to ask this question...how do I find out who the "15" landowners are that are going to have the turbines on their property? Do I go to the county clerk or what?

    Does it matter who the landowners are? Do their taxes change, no, unless they're increased.

   Know this, PILOT is letting the company off cheap, but no different a scenario than large cities trying to lure manufacturing in by giving them a break. What is more important to the county as a whole, this windfall needs to be used , or invested , wisely; because it will go away and not come back . It will be like those who win the lottery and two years later are broke ,or in debt.

     This is not a new perpetual source of revenue. It is temporary.

Janet, I have a new Rural Directory and a map of the wind project and with a little concentration, the names of the landowners within the wind project area can be extracted.

The landowners will not be free of all taxes.  They will still pay for what they own LESS what they have leased.
Granted, they will have a small income from the lease, and will have to report that on their  personal taxes.

The company that leases will pay the differential difference between owed on the first year on a sliding scale until contract is completed.
The amount is reduced by a percentage each year after x many years, untill they have paid off the in lieu of.

Sort of complicated, but it happens all the time with business' in order to give them a break to start up a business.

     The lease is  similar to an oil and gas lease. The big portion of the enterprise is also the same, a percentage of the income produced. Property tax is not the issue of the PILOT payment. It is payment in lieu of the tax that would be levied on the business ( power generation ) . If the landowners could pay less tax , I would be interested in knowing how that happens.

    If it really matters to you Janet, I could give you a list of landowners as well as those who lost out due to the governors decison. But as Wilma said, a map of the turbines and the directory will give you the same.

QuoteIf the landowners could pay less tax , I would be interested in knowing how that happens.

The landowner would pay the regular real estate tax on the property he/she owns, but not on any equipment place by the company.  (Just like oil or gas wells)
We are both in agreeance as to this, it's just difficult to put into words with an appropriate inerpretation.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
    Does it matter who the landowners are? Do their taxes change, no, unless they're increased.

   Know this, PILOT is letting the company off cheap, but no different a scenario than large cities trying to lure manufacturing in by giving them a break. What is more important to the county as a whole, this windfall needs to be used , or invested , wisely; because it will go away and not come back . It will be like those who win the lottery and two years later are broke ,or in debt.

     This is not a new perpetual source of revenue. It is temporary.

Who are you?
Are you the puppet master for Elk Konnected?

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 03, 2011, 11:27:18 AM
The landowners will not be free of all taxes.  They will still pay for what they own LESS what they have leased.
Granted, they will have a small income from the lease, and will have to report that on their  personal taxes.

Sorry but i don't call 40 -60 mil small income...

Per person? I doubt that.What is it per year per person?

        I believe the lease payments are made quarterly , $21.00/acre. There are ONE Time payments for each turbine, $2000. There are annual payments to those who have infrastructure such as sub stations , O&M buildings that are more or less permanent. There are quartely payments once operational of $4500 /megawatt units. These are estimates, by the way.

      I supply this info so we don't have those thinking anyone other than the Enel company is making 40-60 million, because I don't think it should be of concern what the landowners are getting, any more than asking what , for example, Tom Devlin makes at Flint Oak, or what any of our farmers and ranchers make per year, or what Steve makes on the side per year.

Jefe:
You have a lot of technical answers regarding this.  Do you, by anychancework for the Enel company?

     Enel is going to make money, that's what they're in business to do. What the people here need to decide is what to do with the PILOT money. A community involved with a similar project, I can't recall where, invested the money rather than spend it. Then used the money that was returned by the investment for projects. Sort of a county IRA I  guess. This money the county is getting will not be and endless fountain of fortune. What do those of you who are smart investors think?

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 04, 2011, 08:27:12 AM
Per person? I doubt that.What is it per year per person?

it was a total of all the turbines.  with a Approximate guesstimate Plus Patrick said something bout 30 -40 mil on here somewhere. But that i would say is a very conservative estimate.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 09:18:44 AM
    Enel is going to make money, that's what they're in business to do. What the people here need to decide is what to do with the PILOT money. A community involved with a similar project, I can't recall where, invested the money rather than spend it. Then used the money that was returned by the investment for projects. Sort of a county IRA I  guess. This money the county is getting will not be and endless fountain of fortune. What do those of you who are smart investors think?

THeres not a whole lot your going to do with the small amount that is being generated.   When you count the reduction of taxes on private owners land tax, your losing that tax to begin with and the only thing that the payments The windfarm are making is going to replace what you lose. So your essentially back to square one.  Kinda hard to do any investment when like Patriot said your running 1 million in the hole on a 2 million a year tax reciept. 

QuoteWhat do those of you who are smart investors think?

smart enough to know you evaded my question.   :P

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 08:53:17 AM
        I believe the lease payments are made quarterly , $21.00/acre. There are ONE Time payments for each turbine, $2000. There are annual payments to those who have infrastructure such as sub stations , O&M buildings that are more or less permanent. There are quartely payments once operational of $4500 /megawatt units.

TradeWind Energy, on their website, in numerous press articles, and in supporting documents to the TVA has said they will be contributing some $3 million per year to the local economy through PILOT payments and lease payments to approximately 15 landowners.  The well documented PILOT payments average to about $1 million per year.  That would leave $2 million for lease payments to leaseholders.  With a stated project size of around 14000 acres and your figures of $21/A/quarter, that leaves something over $800,000 unaccounted for.  Who's figures are correct?  I think I'll stick with TradeWind's.

http://www.tradewindenergy.com/Project.aspx?id=238 (http://www.tradewindenergy.com/Project.aspx?id=238)

The amounts and, generally, the details of leaseholder information are really improper fodder for public discussion.  In fact, the entire matter of leaseholders and monies they receive would normally be an entirely private matter were it not for one unique aspect of the Caney River project. Of true public concern, in my thinking, should be the ethical questions that arise from the involvement of an elected official in the direct negotiations with the developer for placement of the project (and project elements) in Elk County and the fact that, in the end, the outcome was that some 30% of the turbines and virtually all of the infrastructure mentioned ends up being placed on land owned and/or controlled, directly or indirectly, by that same elected official and/or the official's close family (or business entities owned/controlled by the same).  This information, if accurate, coupled with information that the elected official never recused from a vote or negotiation in the matter, reeks in my opinion, of a potential abuse of power and stands clearly in an ethical grey area.

Let's leave the private matters in private hands an look only at the intersection of public trust where it meets with private interests.  Perhaps you could share your views on these issues.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
    Does it matter who the landowners are?

Not usually.  Though the Caney River project may have some extenuating circumstances.  See my previous post. 

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
   Know this, PILOT is letting the company off cheap...

I'm not so sure.  The next closest payment I have heard about is something like $165,000/yr to Butler County.  The payment to Elk County starts at around $900,000/year, increasing by 2%/yr for some 20 years.  No small change.  Unless Enel received a lump subsidy of some $20 mil and are paying the PILOT with funds received as subsidies paid for by taxpayers on the national level.  Why are they willing to pay this much... solely property tax offsets on increase to commercial land use rates?  I'm not so sure.[/quote]

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
...but no different a scenario than large cities trying to lure manufacturing in by giving them a break.

I disagree.  A manufacturing facility will generally produce local employment of something greater than a 3 to 6 long term jobs.  Which employees will subsequently contribute to that local economy.  As will the facility itself, through local purchases of of utilities, supplies and possibly fuel, etc.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 02, 2011, 09:43:11 PM
What is more important to the county as a whole, this windfall needs to be used , or invested , wisely; because it will go away and not come back . It will be like those who win the lottery and two years later are broke ,or in debt.

     This is not a new perpetual source of revenue. It is temporary.

In that we agree entirely.

I'm still thinking about your investment potential. Investing that kind of money is hard now...want to be fairly conservative because it's public money, right?. Interest rates stink. I'll think about it for awhile.

Patriot, you are stating that an elected official was instrumental in bringing the wind farm project to Elk County.  Who, other than  elected officials do you think would be the proper person to do this negotiating?

You also state that a public official is invested in the land involved as such and should not be voting on the issues, but is voting on the issues.  In your opinion, this is unethical.  Probably it is unethical, if it is true.  But have you notified any of the proper authorities that there might be something unethical going on with the wind farm project?

In your opinion, is there another site in Elk County that would be as appropriate as the Caney Valley site for this project.  Was this project diverted from another site of equal or more appropriate nature?  How is a public official to blame because her family happens to own the land that the wind farm project selected?

It just happens that another landowner owns as much as the family you are talking about and another one owns almost as much.  And the percentage is, according to my figures, 26%, not 30%.  Three different entities own 68% of the land involved.  Now, being just an old woman, my figures may not be as accurate as a college educated mathematician's would be, but I think it is close enough to make my point.

HAVE YOU REPORTED YOUR SUPICIONS TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES?

Wima:  who do you suggest would be the one to handle this?
Please don't say the comissioners as that would  be like " the chicken asking the fox, who is stealing our eggs?"
IF, IF that is the case.

Quote from: Wilma on July 04, 2011, 11:59:23 AM
HAVE YOU REPORTED YOUR SUPICIONS TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES?

If you, or any of the dozens of other readers of this thread, are voters and/or taxpayers in Elk County, Kansas, then I guess the answer would be yes.  They've been informed.  Citizens who don't visit here will have to get information elsewhere.

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 04, 2011, 12:16:31 PM
Wima:  who do you suggest would be the one to handle this?
Please don't say the comissioners as that would  be like " the chicken asking the fox, who is stealing our eggs?"
IF, IF that is the case.

On the thread about the Elk Konnected handout or something like that, I wrote who the appropriate agency would be to report what someone keeps hinting is not ethical and that is the Kansas Attorney General's Office, headed by our "homeboy" (southeast Kansas homeboy), none other than Derek Schmidt. Gotta love that guy.

There are state offices that investigate when a county is involved.  I think that someone posted something that had Tim Norton's name attached to it as to something about county commissioners.  I don't remember where I saw it, but Tim Norton is a Sedgwick County County Commissioner, has been for many years.  If you can't think of anyone else to contact I am sure he could tell you what to do.

What concerns me is how was this done without legal counsel seeing to it that no one involved had a conflict of interest?  Enel would have had legal counsel.  A company like that can't operate without it.  I am sure that any of the big entities that own the land would have had counsel before signing any leases.  Wouldn't the counsel for these families have seen to it that there was no conflict of interest?

Quotebig entities that own the land would have had counsel before signing any leases.  Wouldn't the counsel for these families have seen to it that there was no conflict of interest

In theory, yes.  In my experience no.  Landowners don't always think to have counsel until after the fact.  Then it is too late.

     Tradewind is no longer involved with the project. The location was determined by studies made with wind monitoring towers, the only smart way to go about it. What makes this project different than others is the fact that TVA is buying the power. That made it subject to federal specifications.


    What do you guess it costs to construct such a project with the EPA and other government agencies involved , let alone cost in general. One mile of power line is roughly $750,000 . The interconnect substation with Westar was probably in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 million. It takes money to make money.

    Why do some think the families invloved orchestrated this venture? You talk as if they used some political power to bring it about, instead of just being smart businessmen, and women, who happened to aquire property through many years of smart dealing and use of their property. Wealth does not just fall from the sky, and retaining wealth is done by those who use it wisely.

    I reiterate, it is more of an issue as to what is done with Elk county's new wealth, which is not , as Steve thinks, an even trade for taxes not collected. The landowners are not exempt from paying their property taxes, simply because they leased land to Enel.

    Quit quibbling over who indiviually gains what, and focus on what the county as a whole stands to gain, or squander. It doesn't matter who you suggest handle it, the county commission IS who will decide. How about we give them good suggestions and work together for the good of the county? This backbiting I have seen here is counterproductive and is probably the biggest problem the county has as a whole . If the people on here would use their intelligence to HELP and not attempt to HINDER , I'm sure their knowledge and ability to investigate avenues of progress would be more than welcome by all.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 02:57:06 PM

    Why do some think the families invloved orchestrated this venture? You talk as if they used some political power to bring it about, instead of just being smart businessmen, and women, who happened to aquire property through many years of smart dealing and use of their property. Wealth does not just fall from the sky, and retaining wealth is done by those who use it wisely.

Because when politicians,or commissioners, Or any government representative is personally and financially involved in negotiations with taxpayer dollars being used, and the biggest beneficiary is that of the politician, then what else is there to think.  Don't know if you have taken a look lately for the past 50 years, but Politicians are as corrupt as any resident of any prison in the US. 

     So are you including Mr. Liebau in your witch hunt or just Liz, who by the way isn't on the landowner list, other than being a member of the family?

    You actually think she was part of WHAT negotiations ? Tradewinds approached all of the landowners with THEIR proposal. How do you get negotiations from that.
   
     The thing negotiated was PILOT, with ALL of the commisioners.

    The Perkins have a lot of land and money, get over it. They didn't aquire it with shady political deals. The people who have lived here know that. A lot of the ground they own came from Jim's wife's family.


    " Jealousy and stupidity, don't equal harmony" John Prine

Ready, I think that these landowners would think of counsel before they do anything like this.  They aren't exactly novices at this.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
    So are you including Mr. Liebau in your witch hunt or just Liz, who by the way isn't on the landowner list, other than being a member of the family?

    You actually think she was part of WHAT negotiations ? Tradewinds approached all of the landowners with THEIR proposal. How do you get negotiations from that.
   
     The thing negotiated was PILOT, with ALL of the commisioners.

    The Perkins have a lot of land and money, get over it. They didn't aquire it with shady political deals. The people who have lived here know that. A lot of the ground they own came from Jim's wife's family.


    " Jealousy and stupidity, don't equal harmony" John Prine

I don't know who mr leibeu or care about perkins land.  And no I won't get over a poltician that could be using taxdollars to fund personal gain.  99% do.  I doubt this county is any different than the rest of the counties across this country.  In fact i know it isn't when the good ole boy system is in place, it is definitely corrupt. 

Quote from: Wilma on July 04, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
There are state offices that investigate when a county is involved.  I think that someone posted something that had Tim Norton's name attached to it as to something about county commissioners.  I don't remember where I saw it, but Tim Norton is a Sedgwick County County Commissioner, has been for many years.  If you can't think of anyone else to contact I am sure he could tell you what to do.

What concerns me is how was this done without legal counsel seeing to it that no one involved had a conflict of interest?  Enel would have had legal counsel.  A company like that can't operate without it.  I am sure that any of the big entities that own the land would have had counsel before signing any leases.  Wouldn't the counsel for these families have seen to it that there was no conflict of interest?

here ares so many possible scenerios
If I were to hire legal council it would be for my interest not everyone else's. I would be to protect me. Another thing is if I don't tell him what I want coverd and he doesn't think of of it or if I tell him to ignore it --- then the answer would be no.
Don't you see there are so many scenario's as with any situation.

I had a fight with my attorney in family court in front of a judge because he would not do what I asked him to do. The judge and I had a conversation about the situation where upon the judge gave my attorney a chewing out. I had to learn some of the law to be able to accomplish what had to be done to win in court. Family court is just a kangaroo court and is really weird. However, I did win my case and got my adopted son out of the system and I fired the attorney. What I'm saying is not all lawyers do the right thing at the right time or do as their clients ask them to do.

So the best answer I can give you is maybe not.

    "  Well , there you go again " ( Ronald Regan ).  Coming from the south , I'm sure you've seen plenty of crooked politicians. One that comes to mind, Huey P. Long.  I've read several of your posts Steve , and always perceived you to be fair minded. I don't trust most of them ( politicians ) either, but I trust what I see, and know to be fact. You wouldn't want to dis Mr Liebau here. He's a tough old bird who's worked hard for what he has, as have the rest of our people here. There are people with megabucks in our midst, however , that didn't. They don't hold public office or care to, but have influence that reaches much higher than county goverment.

    FYI, Mr Liebau is also a county commissioner. Amazes me you don't know that.  Any "good ole boy" back scratching that happens here pales in comparison to what is going on , and has been forever, in our nations Capitol. I wholeheartedly agree with you there. We need congressional reform on a large scale. I see the internet as one of the only ways we can do it. When your voting choices are bad, or worse, change is hard to effect by voting.

Good morning, I sure hope everyone had an incident free Independence Day Celebration.

I just could not believe what I was reading. It sounds like you are saying there is justification in wrong doing in the small level of local government because it is not as bad of wrong doing on the national level.
That sort of thinking just blows me away. And what do you think has driven our whole country to the brink that it is at today? Who, who, who are you Jefe?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
Coming from the south , I'm sure you've seen plenty of crooked politicians.

I personally don't believe where you hail from, or where you have been, or where you are going justifies crooked politicians. Or that it means they can't be everywhere. Or that errors by a politician makes them a crooked politician.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
I don't trust most of them ( politicians ) either, but I trust what I see, and know to be fact.

In other words if you are a member of an organization that ask for money (a hand out) from and you are an elected official that is going to vote on awarding that money to your organization, you can't see that as a conflict of interest?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
He's a tough old bird who's worked hard for what he has, as have the rest of our people here. There are people with megabucks in our midst, however , that didn't. They don't hold public office or care to, but have influence that reaches much higher than county government.

Are you saying it matters whether or not a person holds office or has mega bucks or has influence that reaches much higher than county government justifies any form of wrong doing paraphrased as "good ole boy " stuff?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
Any "good ole boy" back scratching that happens here pales in comparison to what is going on , and has been forever, in our nations Capitol. I wholeheartedly agree with you there. We need congressional reform on a large scale. I see the internet as one of the only ways we can do it. When your voting choices are bad, or worse, change is hard to effect by voting.

Whether it pales in comparison to what is going on in our capitol is irrelevant, is it still not wrong?
If you can't correct it at home how do you expect to correct it 1284 miles away from home?
Don't you think you should insure your government at home is working as it is designed to work, work on those possible problems and then maybe work on the state level problems before trying to challenge the National level of Government problems?  Any problems need to be addressed from the bottom up wouldn't you think?





I'm hauling this over to http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=11780.1860;num_replies=1860

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 04, 2011, 04:21:44 PM
   "  Well , there you go again " ( Ronald Regan ).  Coming from the south , I'm sure you've seen plenty of crooked politicians. One that comes to mind, Huey P. Long.  I've read several of your posts Steve , and always perceived you to be fair minded. I don't trust most of them ( politicians ) either, but I trust what I see, and know to be fact. You wouldn't want to dis Mr Liebau here. He's a tough old bird who's worked hard for what he has, as have the rest of our people here. There are people with megabucks in our midst, however , that didn't. They don't hold public office or care to, but have influence that reaches much higher than county goverment.

    FYI, Mr Liebau is also a county commissioner. Amazes me you don't know that.  Any "good ole boy" back scratching that happens here pales in comparison to what is going on , and has been forever, in our nations Capitol. I wholeheartedly agree with you there. We need congressional reform on a large scale. I see the internet as one of the only ways we can do it. When your voting choices are bad, or worse, change is hard to effect by voting.

Quite frankly, money doesn't scare me.  I have nothing to take, so they are powerless against me.  As far  as mr Liebau, i don't worry about him nor do i worry about any official.  He can be put out of office just as fast as he was put in.  Money is only a tool.  Just because its been forever in our nations capital doesn't mean its acceptable.  And they saw that this last election cycle.  Next one will be another blood bath for those who refuse to obey their boss's. US.  And it starts here local level. IF theres a corrupt SOB in office, expose em and get them out.  Make it painful for them.  VERY painful.  Personally if they were exposed and caught, i would propose siezing all their assets to start.  That would be a good start. 

Steve, from what I understand you don't and never have lived or owned any property in Elk County. You are just stirring the pot on something you know nothing about.

Quote from: ELK@KC on July 05, 2011, 08:35:56 AM
Steve, from what I understand you don't and never have lived or owned any property in Elk County. You are just stirring the pot on something you know nothing about.

AND You don't know one thing about me that i don't let you know either. :) 

  I agree.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 08:44:29 AM
  I agree.

Whats funny it drives these folks insane when they don't know everything about someone.

srkruzicht it is just terrible if they don't know somethings about you because they then can't control you.
But you know as far as not living here howabout that Perkins living in Arkansas?

Makes me wonder where Jefe Perkins lives? Not that I care.
But it appears that if bullying one doesn't work there is always another way to bully.
Just to give them some relief, I'm not indebted to anyone. No car payment, no mortgage,
no handouts, no money.

And Mr. Perkins, you had the gall to tell me to get a job, well I have worked all my life.
If you had read the Topic: Elk County Hand Out At Commissioners Meeting on 4/25  (Read 16675 times)
@ http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html you would know that I have a couple of
work related disabilities.

I had never planned on retiring until at least 70 years old, but here I am at 65 on social security retirement that I paid into since I was 13 years old.

What is it you do for a living if you don't mind my asking?

Quote from: Ross on July 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
srkruzicht it is just terrible if they don't know somethings about you because they then can't control you.
But you know as far as not living here howabout that Perkins living in Arkansas?

LOL true but they couldn't control me if they did know everything about me!  One of the most beautiful things is you can't get blood out of a turnip.

Quote from: Ross on July 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
But you know as far as not living here howabout that Perkins living in Arkansas?

And just who would that be?

Flint, that's what I was wondering...??????

Quote from: flintauqua on July 05, 2011, 12:03:45 PM
And just who would that be?

Is that the best you got and catwoman to back it.
Wow I am so impressed by both of you.
Are you Elk Konnected followers?

  Let's see, this thread is labled RE: Windfarm funfacts... a little more sunshine. How does that become an issue regarding identity?  I know ! Those who want to promote" themselves ", just skew the conversation to serve their own agenda. What that exactlly is, appears to be quite nebulous, their agenda that is. I took the advice of one of the characters involved and went to the beginning of the thread concerning the" Elk County Hand Out". It is indeed quite a telling read. It tells us that the majority of people who posted, disapproved of the accusations being put forth. I didn't count them, perhaps someone will , though the disparity between those who support the betterment of the county through whomever want's to provide their time , money and knowledge towards that goal far outnumber those who believe people are in it for personal gain. This is not a factor to be shoved aside as unimportant.

  I also observed , in perusing that thread which dates back to April, that one character gave us quite a pity story about how tough it's been through the years, injuries , being homeless , on and on, post to post. So I guess we're supposed to feel sorry. I do , I pray that he can let go of the anger that he feels, the feeling of being cheated in life . I pray that kindness and fellowship be restored to his heart.  Know that there are others who have fared worse.

   I think we need to take a vote. All in favor of this acidic banter going away, vote AYE. Those opposed , NAY.



     

I recluse myself from this vote as I have a vested interest.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
   I think we need to take a vote. All in favor of this acidic banter going away, vote AYE. Those opposed , NAY.    

Sad that this forum isn't a democracy... no?  Seeking a consensus?  I hope you realize that you're sounding a lot like the liberal playbook..... or a Delphi facilitator trainee.

   And you, sir, sound a lot like a lawyer, or someone who wanted to be with a Roget's Thesaurus. I thought you related that such name calling was "immature".

Ross, since you didn't answer the question the first time, just who are you talking about in this statement?

Quote from: Ross on July 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
But you know as far as not living here howabout that Perkins living in Arkansas?

Flint,
I can't answer for Ross but he may be talking about Jerome Leroy Jamel Perkins. Leroy lives with his homies in Pea Ridge. Surely you don't think the Perkins name is only in Elk County !!!

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:59:12 PM
And you, sir, sound a lot like a lawyer, or someone who wanted to be with a Roget's Thesaurus.  I thought you related that such name calling was "immature".

There's a distinct difference between "you sound like" and "you are".  Your recent posts, here and elsewhere, clearly illustrate your skills in the area of "you are" label assignments.  

Oh, by the way, I haven't cracked open a thesaurus in probably 10 years.  I guess my English teachers knew what they were doing.

Now, regarding your desire for the death of "this acidic banter", this forum is not a democracy, it's solely controlled by its' owner.  Seems Teresa would be El Jefe in this pasture. How about you lay your desires at her feet and ask for her guidance.   Sucks to have to subordinate like that, but them's the rulez

Here's a link to the owner's last input on such things:  http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11957.msg163486.html#msg163486 (http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11957.msg163486.html#msg163486)

  Let the people decide. When no one pays attention to your slights, your soap box shrinks dramatically. Many have already voted by not paying any attention to you, which is what you crave, attention.

 I came on here to provide facts, but you and your ilk is blind to the facts.
 

   Mother Teresa, they're not playing fair! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 08:57:22 PM
  I came on here to provide facts, but your ilk is blind to the facts.

So provide some. 

   You wouldn't know one if it bit you in the tush.

180+ pages and you don't find any facts. It's a wonder you guys have been able to stretch it out that far. No, you are excellent antagonists. BYE.  I Vote AYE.

Quote from: jarhead on July 05, 2011, 08:41:45 PM
Flint,
I can't answer for Ross but he may be talking about Jerome Leroy Jamel Perkins. Leroy lives with his homies in Pea Ridge. Surely you don't think the Perkins name is only in Elk County !!!

;)

Maybe Ross will tell us before he goes to bed this evening.  Ross?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 09:03:07 PM
BYE.  I Vote AYE.

Well, you're 'vote' here and a buck might buy a cup of coffee somewhere.  But since posting or not posting here is a free choice, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

Note to the dozens of silent citizens following the EK and government ethics discussions, stay connected.  Your vote will count where it counts most... in the court of public opinion.  You don't have to be a leader.  Just don't be a blind follower. Be an independent thinker.

 

Aye!...And if Patsy and Rosco actually knew me...They would know better than to suggest any man was ever my "boss"! lol  ::) I like word plays and Jefe's "name" worked well for just that.   ;D

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
 Let's see, this thread is labled RE: Windfarm funfacts... a little more sunshine. How does that become an issue regarding identity?  I know ! Those who want to promote" themselves ", just skew the conversation to serve their own agenda. What that exactlly is, appears to be quite nebulous, their agenda that is. I took the advice of one of the characters involved and went to the beginning of the thread concerning the" Elk County Hand Out". It is indeed quite a telling read. It tells us that the majority of people who posted, disapproved of the accusations being put forth. I didn't count them, perhaps someone will , though the disparity between those who support the betterment of the county through whomever want's to provide their time , money and knowledge towards that goal far outnumber those who believe people are in it for personal gain. This is not a factor to be shoved aside as unimportant.

  I also observed , in perusing that thread which dates back to April, that one character gave us quite a pity story about how tough it's been through the years, injuries , being homeless , on and on, post to post. So I guess we're supposed to feel sorry. I do , I pray that he can let go of the anger that he feels, the feeling of being cheated in life . I pray that kindness and fellowship be restored to his heart.  Know that there are others who have fared worse.

   I think we need to take a vote. All in favor of this acidic banter going away, vote AYE. Those opposed , NAY.

Don't you think for one minute I am a bitter person. I believe it was another Perkins that told me to get a job with no knowledge of who or what I am. I am a veteran, a voter and a tax payer of this county and have every right that has been earned to ask all the questions I want in this open forum.
You my friend in my opinion are one twisted dude for making such disrespectful statements. I am sure you take great pride in being nasty, so enjoy yourself. It appears you support something you know nothing about, just another follower right?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
I pray that kindness and fellowship be restored to his heart.

I doubt that you have any idea what that really means and I make that statement based on what you have written on this thread and on Topic: Elk County Hand Out At Commissioners Meeting on 4/25.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
  I also observed , in perusing that thread which dates back to April, that one character gave us quite a pity story about how tough it's been through the years, injuries , being homeless , on and on, post to post.

You mis-read and now tiwst what you read -- you my friend are the one to be pitied. I am far richer and happier than you and it is not counted in dollars. I keep on, keeping on. All that just shows you I can't be stopped.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 07:27:27 PM
those who support the betterment of the county

By who and how? Oh, the followers that don't know who they are following, right?
You have never seen me running around asking for handouts like a common beggar, now have you? But then you don't know me do you.

You are Great with diversions but no real answers, right?

Let's try again, do you have any real answers to the following?
Can you provide any intellegent answers?


Please try real hard to concentrate, these are important questions.

 :o :o  Is that a vein I see popping out on your temple, Rosco?  ;D ;D

Quote from: Catwoman on July 05, 2011, 09:51:57 PM
Aye!...And if Patsy and Rosco actually knew me...They would know better than to suggest any man was ever my "boss"! lol  ::) I like word plays and Jefe's "name" worked well for just that.   ;D

For what it's worth, christian, I would never suggest that you would submit to any man.

Quote from: flintauqua on July 05, 2011, 08:27:14 PM
Ross, since you didn't answer the question the first time, just who are you talking about in this statement?

Quote from: Ross on July 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
srkruzicht it is just terrible if they don't know somethings about you because they then can't control you.
But you know as far as not living here, how about that Perkins living in Arkansas?

Makes me wonder where Jefe Perkins lives? Not that I care.
But it appears that if bullying one doesn't work there is always another way to bully.
Just to give them some relief, I'm not indebted to anyone. No car payment, no mortgage,
no handouts, no money.

And Mr. Perkins, you had the gall to tell me to get a job, well I have worked all my life.
If you had read the Topic: Elk County Hand Out At Commissioners Meeting on 4/25  (Read 16675 times)
@ http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html you would know that I have a couple of
work related disabilities.

I had never planned on retiring until at least 70 years old, but here I am at 65 on social security retirement that I paid into since I was 13 years old.

What is it you do for a living if you don't mind my asking?

I noticed you didn't answer any questions yourself. Why is that?

Quote from: flintauqua on July 05, 2011, 08:27:14 PM
Ross, since you didn't answer the question the first time, just who are you talking about in this statement?

Quote from: flintauqua on July 05, 2011, 08:27:14 PM
But you know as far as not living here, how about that Perkins living in Arkansas?

I believe it was a question, see the question mark?????
Good night sweet heart good night.

Quote from: Catwoman on July 05, 2011, 09:58:59 PM
:o :o  Is that a vein I see popping out on your temple, Rosco?  ;D ;D

Save it for your Boss man.
I don't get angry over something as simple as this stuff.
You guy are really working hard at it though and just wasting your time.
Followers that don't know who they are following do not impress me, sorry.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I don't understand all the comments about the Perkins family, especially the ones that are subtly, yet truly negative. I know there have been Perkins family members around Elk County, both by blood and marriage, for a very long time and now the comments are leaking out about a Perkins link to another state entirely? If you'll pardon the awful pun, what's the beef? It seems to be much more than just EK doin's. Through family business I've known or at least met a mess of 'em and I honestly didn't see any "human" horns.

Awww, Diane, you can't blame them...It's just Perkins envy... ;D

Quote from: Diane Amberg on July 06, 2011, 09:08:09 AM
I don't understand all the comments about the Perkins family, especially the ones that are subtly, yet truly negative. I know there have been Perkins family members around Elk County, both by blood and marriage, for a very long time and now the comments are leaking out about a perking link to another state entirely? If you'll pardon the awful pun, what's the beef? It seems to be much more than just EK doin's. Through family business I've known or at least met a mess of 'em and I honestly didn't see any "human" horns.

Rather than picking the people and trying to find inappropriate actions, try finding inappropriate actions and follow them to the people.  If the shoe fits, then Cinderella might have well been at the dance... fairy godmother, mice and all.  If the acts, however, lead back to Rumpelstiltskin, then so be it.  If the actions never happened, then no harm, no harm.

Quote from: Catwoman on July 06, 2011, 09:10:03 AM
Awww, Diane, you can't blame them...It's just Perkins envy... ;D

Your fantasy, not that of those asking the questions.

 ;D ;D  I'd say the compulsion to have to say anything about my post speaks for itself... ;D ;D

Quote from: Ross on July 05, 2011, 11:47:59 AM
But you know as far as not living here howabout that Perkins living in Arkansas?

Makes me wonder where Jefe Perkins lives? Not that I care.

Ross,  You asked Steve a question about a Perkins living in Arkansas, then you followed it up with a question wondering where "Jefe Perkins" lives.  Then you said "Not that I care."

What are you insunuating here with your loaded questions? 

Are you insinuating that Jefe De Vaca is a Perkins because he refuses to join your witch-hunt against the Perkins family and Liz Perkins in particular? 

I live in Arkansas.  Are you insunuating that I am Jefe De Vaca and that I am a Perkins since I refuse to join the witch-hunt?

Since you don't care - why all the loaded questions?

Charles M. Durbin

aka Flintauqua

Charlie, don't even bother with these people and their "fishing" expeditions...Innuendo is their only game...Sad, really sad.   ;D

Quote from: flintauqua on July 06, 2011, 10:27:25 AM
Ross,  You asked Steve a question about a Perkins living in Arkansas, then you followed it up with a question wondering where "Jefe Perkins" lives.  Then you said "Not that I care."

What are you insunuating here with your loaded questions? 

Are you insinuating that Jefe De Vaca is a Perkins because he refuses to join your witch-hunt against the Perkins family and Liz Perkins in particular? 

I live in Arkansas.  Are you insunuating that I am Jefe De Vaca and that I am a Perkins since I refuse to join the witch-hunt?

Since you don't care - why all the loaded questions?

Charles M. Durbin

aka Flintauqua

Aw, you answered a question. No, I beleive I said in an earlier post I don't know who you people are, not that it matters, because I don't generally associate with people that have such nasty attitudes. And I probably would not have anything to do with some of you outside of this forum.

So let me get this straight Flintauqua is in Arkansas and is a Durbin, is that kin to Stubb?  (Stubb, now that was a fine man , I miss him.) And Jefe de vaca is a Perkins and is in Howard. So what, I'll probably forget it tomorrow. But the only reason I broached the subject was because someone made remarks about where someone else lived. Does it make any difference? Or is this an open forum?

What loaded questions? What are you insinuating that I'm insinuating? No witch hunt here just asking a few questions about such a great organization that want's taxpayers dollars and nobody seems to know the answers to. Why all the ugliness from the followers, I assume that like a bully that doesn't know the answer or doesn't want to feel left out they have to shove and push and make up stories like "witch hunt" or tell someone I don't think you live here. But the bullying tactics don't work.

Theses are very polite questions and nothing mentioned about a witch.



Okay, I am being a bit of a smart alec with the puppet master thingy, but i thought it might get your attention.
I think I'll politely drop the puppet master remark I guess,  IMHO it may be to painfully truthful.
What is there for you to be a bully about?
That question is not necessarily aimed at any one individual. If the shoe fits wear it, otherwise ignore it. Very easy, no?

Quote from: Catwoman on July 06, 2011, 09:10:03 AM
Awww, Diane, you can't blame them...It's just Perkins envy... ;D

Catwoman give with some real answers about that statement, clarify please.
Perkins Envy???
Do you have it?
What is that? Is that wide spread?
Please tell me what there is to envy?
Can I have a top ten list of thing to envy the Perkins for?
I know nothing of the Perkins, so that list may help me understand what you are talking about.
Please enlighten me and eeveryone else about Perkins envy.

I have never in my life envied anyone, what is constructive about that.

And I only praise and bow to God?

My, I must have touched a nerve...Imagine that... :o ::)

Perkins envy?  What's that? 

You're taking a lot of shots here and coming up with nothing, Catwoman.

Nothing? lol  It was somewhat of a double entendre...Sorry it went over your head.  All I'm doing is poking a little fun, RCSW.  Lighten up!  ;D

Quote from: Catwoman on July 06, 2011, 01:09:00 PM
Nothing? lol  It was somewhat of a double entendre...Sorry it went over your head.  All I'm doing is poking a little fun, RCSW.  Lighten up!  ;D

Whal now all of that thar stuff sounded rediculously serious, fer havin a liddle fun. Poke---poke---poke.

But kent answer a coupe sserious simple questions.

    Not a Perkins , Not a Perkins, Not a Perkins

   Live in Howard, Live in Howard, Live in Howard
 
   Not on the dole, Not on the dole , Not on the dole

    " I do believe in ghosts, I do believe in ghosts, I do believe in ghosts"  Cowardly Lion

   Just figured since repetition is up your alley, I'd give it a shot.

    " Did your parents have any children that lived ? " R Lee Ermey

Whoa there Hoss . Leave my friend R. Lee Ermey out of your rants unless you want him to rip your eyeballs out and skull--------------------well, you probably know the rest. ;)

      The man has no equal, the real deal. Would have loved to have served with him.

   " What side was that , Private Pyle?"

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 06, 2011, 07:00:42 PM
   
    " I do believe in ghosts, I do believe in ghosts, I do believe in ghosts"  Cowardly Lion

   

"I ain't afraid of no ghosts." (Ray Parker, Ghostbusters Theme Song.)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :o :o :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) ::) :laugh: :laugh: :angel: :angel: :angel:

If you had read the Topic: Elk County Hand Out At Commissioners Meeting on 4/25  (Read 16675 times)
@ http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html you would know that I have a couple of
work related disabilities.

       Narcissism  n.  in psychoanalysis, an abnormal love and admiration for oneself.

   Note that this individual takes pride in how many times his thread is read, though most of the posts in the thread are his and are the same thing over and over. He seems to only want to get into the Forum record book of carrying on , and on, and on, and on,.........

   His quest is no longer about questions , but self glorification. Why else move his dialogue to his original thread?

   Narcissis spent the entire day looking at himself in the mirror, this is "his" mirror, and it's obvious he spends all day looking into it.

    " A cat heard that the birds in the aviary were ailing. So he got himself up as a doctor, and, taking with him a set of the instruments proper to his profession, presented himself at the door, and inquired after the health of the birds. "" We shall do very well, "" they replied, without letting him in, "" when we've seen the last of you."" ::)

A villain may disguise himself, but he will not deceive the wise. Aesop 8)

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 05, 2011, 09:03:07 PM
180+ pages and you don't find any facts. It's a wonder you guys have been able to stretch it out that far. No, you are excellent antagonists. BYE.  I Vote AYE.

As Catwoman pointed out some time ago, it's like a train wreck... you just can't stay away.  Guess your 'bye' was hollow, no?

So, about those boys who were told to rock and grade a privately owned road....

Quote from: Patriot on July 07, 2011, 08:50:51 PM
So, about those boys who were told to rock and grade a privately owned road....

. . . within a county owned easement

   Your buddy moved his "junk " back to his thread. Not staying away from nada. Seen me respond to his "junk"?

I believe it is you , that can't resist to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Of your true purpose , that is.

  How many people do you count in your corner there chief?

The questions were answered , sorry they didn't fit your agenda.

Try re-reading the above fable and see if you can "comprender".

 

I'm thinking that he can't count any socialists, so that leaves some good folks in his corner.   

Remove all doubt? That's an understatement coming from stupidity. Not calling you ignorant, just stupid of the facts. FACT is that blading and rock plus man hours and equipment were used on privately owned property with no easement and only an idiot who has not checked or an idiot who would like to turn the words around and say that there is an easement without even checking or calling the courthouse to ask about road easements, but none in particular, would keep bringing up that there is an easement across privately owned property that the county and road department has NO moral or legal obligation to upkeep. If there is NO easement there is NO county road. Stupid people cannot grasp what has been said. Current county employees, past county employees and a couple of current county commissioners know exactly what work went on. That's a hell of a lot of people in my corner that KNOW FACTS. None of these statements are false and I would bet my job right into the courtroom with it. ----MR. KSHillbilly

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 09:30:00 PM
Remove all doubt? That's an understatement coming from stupidity. Not calling you ignorant, just stupid of the facts. FACT is that blading and rock plus man hours and equipment were used on privately owned property with no easement and only an idiot who has not checked or an idiot who would like to turn the words around and say that there is an easement without even checking or calling the courthouse to ask about road easements, but none in particular, would keep bringing up that there is an easement across privately owned property that the county and road department has NO moral or legal obligation to upkeep. If there is NO easement there is NO county road. Stupid people cannot grasp what has been said. Current county employees, past county employees and a couple of current county commissioners know exactly what work went on. That's a hell of a lot of people in my corner that KNOW FACTS. None of these statements are false and I would bet my job right into the courtroom with it. ----MR. KSHillbilly

So, I guess that means that you are calling Wilma, and Janet, and the county employees in the courthouse that confirmed the existence of the easement, all liars.  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 07, 2011, 09:11:32 PM
  Your buddy moved his "junk " back to his thread. Not staying away from nada. Seen me respond to his "junk"?

I believe it is you , that can't resist to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Of your true purpose , that is.

  How many people do you count in your corner there chief?

The questions were answered , sorry they didn't fit your agenda.

Try re-reading the above fable and see if you can "comprender".

You sir IMHO are simply a bully. Something they try to teach children in grade school not to be.
Please check out http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.msg167661.html#msg167661
See for yourself.

Quote from: flintauqua on July 07, 2011, 09:33:49 PM
So, I guess that means that you are calling Wilma, and Janet, and the county employees in the courthouse that confirmed the existence of the easement, all liars.  Is that what you are saying?

The only people I am calling liars would be Wilma and Janet and anyone outside of the courthouse. The county employees in the courthouse told me the truth. The conversation that Janet called up there about was just about how big easements are on county roads, not about any particular road. By the way, they are reading and quite pissed at how their words were turned around.

How about you take that K-State emblem down and put up an Arkansas Razorback, Boss?

So,

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 09:43:22 PM
The only people I am calling liars would be Wilma and Janet and anyone outside of the courthouse. The county employees in the courthouse told me the truth. The conversation that Janet called up there about was just about how big easements are on county roads, not about any particular road. By the way, they are reading and quite pissed at how their words were turned around.

So, kshillbilly, you were listening to my conversation on the telephone with the cartographer? How is that possible? I don't remember there being a third person on that phone. And if she is pissed, (as you say she is), I will call her at home tomorrow and ask her. You can call me a liar all you want. I don't really care. I know what I was told and I know what the conversation was about and I know what the cartographer said.  I did not ask how big easements are on county roads. I asked if there was an easement across the hill from Road 5 all the way to Road 7 and Killdeer. The response to me, (after looking at maps, etc.), was, "Yes, there is a 60 foot county right-of-way there." Don't write on here that you know what MY conversation on the telephone was with the appraisers office was. YOU WERE NOT THERE. (That is, of course, unless you have wire-tapped the telephone in the appraiser's office.)

No, Janet, I haven't wire-tapped the courthouse, just your phone. So maybe there are two sides of the card being played. One is you're a liar. The other is I'm a liar. Everybody, get off your fat asses and call the courthouse. Don't rely on Wilma's know it all ass or Janet's uppity I-know-it-all ass and find out the truth. Because apparently you're damned sure not going to find it on here. The courthouse is open from 7 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Monday-Thursday. And again Janet, we at the Road Department appreciate you and your mama calling us all liars. I urge the citizens of Elk County to ask this question: Why rock, blading, man hours and equipment were being used on private property on a non-existent county road. Contact the cartographer, (we'll put it in layman's terms, mapmaker), county appraiser, road department, any of which can tell you. Now Sargent Janet, go back to your security job and rattle them doors.----Mr. KSHillbillys

Let me out of here! Let me out of here! Get me a mouth piece! I want a "habus corpeas"!

Yosemite Sam (Big House Bunny (1950))



Bugs Bunny: Your move first, Sam. C'mon, pick a card.
Yosemite Sam: All right! Don't rush me. I'm a-thinking... and my head hurts. (Bugs Bunny Rides Again (1948))

WTF are you talking about? I think your damn cheese done slid off its' cracker.....

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 10:04:34 PM
No, Janet, I haven't wire-tapped the courthouse, just your phone. So maybe there are two sides of the card being played. One is you're a liar. The other is I'm a liar. Everybody, get off your fat asses and call the courthouse. Don't rely on Wilma's know it all ass or Janet's uppity I-know-it-all ass and find out the truth. Because apparently you're damned sure not going to find it on here. The courthouse is open from 7 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Monday-Thursday. And again Janet, we at the Road Department appreciate you and your mama calling us all liars. I urge the citizens of Elk County to ask this question: Why rock, blading, man hours and equipment were being used on private property on a non-existent county road. Contact the cartographer, (we'll put it in layman's terms, mapmaker), county appraiser, road department, any of which can tell you. Now Sargent Janet, go back to your security job and rattle them doors.----Mr. KSHillbillys

Mr. Hillbilly, I have not called you a liar. I have said what I was told. I don't know what the road department secretary told you. I have not called her. I have not called any of the road department liars. And, as oldfart said, the rock, blading, man hours and equipment used on that property happened when he worked there. I have no idea if it is going on now. I haven't been up there for 6 years. Don't say that I am saying that stuff because I am not.

I have urged these people on here to call the courthouse and has anyone done it? Not to my knowledge and apparently not to your knowledge.

The comment about tapping my phone had better be in jest, Hillbilly. Federal offense, there, ya know. But of course I know you are just trying to get me riled. Calling me Sargent Janet. At least I know you read the Independence Reporter. The word is spelled Sergeant. I did not put that ad in the paper. My bosses in Springfield and Wichita did that. I know how to spell Sergeant. Do you? And if you want to put it in layman terms about who to call, let's just put her name out there. Call Connie Hey. She is the cartographer and a good one at that.

Have I ever used cuss words on here to describe anything? No. Have I ever gone to name calling on here? No. Have I ever called you anything, except Robert or by your profile name? No. You want to know why? Because I can get my point across without any of that. I can see, though, that you have to sling the name calling. But, you just go right ahead and continue. I know it makes you feel better.  

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 10:10:28 PM
WTF are you talking about? I think your damn cheese done slid off its' cracker.....

Just writing quotes from Yosemite Sam there.

That's very funny, Sargent Sergeant Janet. I'm glad you caught the sarcasm that I had your phone bugged, seeing how you brought it up in the first place. I will cuss at any time I feel appropriate to get my point across. And as I had already stated in an earlier post, I do not follow the politically correct line. I am who I am and I don't put up no stupid ass fronts. I had the road department secretary check for me, since as you well know I work Monday through Thursday. You had already said that you checked with the cartographer in your previous post and put her number up. I do believe I was the one who put a name with that number to let everyone know who the hell you were talking about. We haven't been on that road since late 2008/early 2009. I know that we were pulled off of that road when it was found out that we shouldn't even be on private property. And to my knowledge there hasn't been any upkeep from the road department since then. By the way, I did work with oldfart or as we called him, Fish, and he knows what he's talking about. I know what I'm talking about and many others that I don't care to drag in at this time know it too. If you think I'm full of shit, keep pushing. Taxpayer money on private property...damn the fringe benefits get pretty good when you're a county commissioner. Please note Janet, that my personal time, I'll do with as I see fit. I'll get on the Elk County Forum and complain about or praise anyone that I want, and that's my right under the first amendment.---MR. KSHillbilly

P.S. Note that I changed my profile picture to Yosemite Sam, not to make light of the truth, but to show how both sides of the card are being played. One side's a liar, the other side's a liar. Look at any county road map and contact the appraiser's office. Talk to Connie Hey.

Quote from: Janet Weyrauch Harrington on July 07, 2011, 10:20:44 PM
Calling me Sargent Janet. At least I know you read the Independence Reporter. The word is spelled Sergeant. I did not put that ad in the paper. My bosses in Springfield and Wichita did that. I know how to spell Sergeant. Do you?   

Yes any idiot can spell Sergeant. Good catch, but I was quoting the Independence Reporter and that's how they have it in the ad. Sargent. I was just trying to be correct in quoting all of my sources.  :police:

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 10:43:09 PM
That's very funny, Sargent Sergeant Janet. I'm glad you caught the sarcasm that I had your phone bugged, seeing how you brought it up in the first place. I will cuss at any time I feel appropriate to get my point across. And as I had already stated in an earlier post, I do not follow the politically correct line. I am who I am and I don't put up no stupid ass fronts. I had the road department secretary check for me, since as you well know I work Monday through Thursday. You had already said that you checked with the cartographer in your previous post and put her number up. I do believe I was the one who put a name with that number to let everyone know who the hell you were talking about. We haven't been on that road since late 2008/early 2009. I know that we were pulled off of that road when it was found out that we shouldn't even be on private property. And to my knowledge there hasn't been any upkeep from the road department since then. By the way, I did work with oldfart or as we called him, Fish, and he knows what he's talking about. I know what I'm talking about and many others that I don't care to drag in at this time know it too. If you think I'm full of shit, keep pushing. Taxpayer money on private property...damn the fringe benefits get pretty good when you're a county commissioner. Please note Janet, that my personal time, I'll do with as I see fit. I'll get on the Elk County Forum and complain about or praise anyone that I want, and that's my right under the first amendment.---MR. KSHillbilly

Ah, Robert. You don't have to call me Sergeant. Just Janet will be fine.

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 10:52:42 PM
Yes any idiot can spell Sergeant. Good catch, but I was quoting the Independence Reporter and that's how they have it in the ad. Sargent. I was just trying to be correct in quoting all of my sources.  :police:

Well, like I said, I didn't put that ad in the Independence Reporter. My bosses did.

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 07, 2011, 10:43:09 PM
...I am who I am and I don't put up no stupid ass fronts.   ---MR. KSHillbilly

At least those who love you or hate you will base their views on who you really are rather than who you try to make them think you are.  And that's a good thing.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 07, 2011, 08:42:20 PM
If you had read the Topic: Elk County Hand Out At Commissioners Meeting on 4/25  (Read 16675 times)
@ http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html you would know that I have a couple of
work related disabilities.

      Narcissism  n.  in psychoanalysis, an abnormal love and admiration for oneself.

  Note that this individual takes pride in how many times his thread is read, though most of the posts in the thread are his and are the same thing over and over. He seems to only want to get into the Forum record book of carrying on , and on, and on, and on,.........

  His quest is no longer about questions , but self glorification. Why else move his dialogue to his original thread?

  Narcissis spent the entire day looking at himself in the mirror, this is "his" mirror, and it's obvious he spends all day looking into it.

   " A cat heard that the birds in the aviary were ailing. So he got himself up as a doctor, and, taking with him a set of the instruments proper to his profession, presented himself at the door, and inquired after the health of the birds. "" We shall do very well, "" they replied, without letting him in, "" when we've seen the last of you."" ::)

A villain may disguise himself, but he will not deceive the wise. Aesop 8)

A villain may disguise himself, but he will not deceive the wise. Aesop
And Jeffe I think you are doing a very good job but I also think you have let your disguise slip with the continuous bullying?
Do you do that bullying on behalf of Elk Konnected????

Quote from: flintauqua on July 07, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
. . . within a county owned easement

Why??? Why would the county easement need graded and rocked???

I worked for Arco Pipeline for quite a few years and they have so many miles of easment and none of it is graded and rocked for roads.
Just one line runs from Houston, Texas to East Chicago, Indiana and no paved or rocked roads on the easements. It the company needed access they simply talked to the land owner and drove through the pasture. And their right of way covered every imaginable type of terrain.

I have a right of way on my property for a water pipeline and no graveled road.

Can I get a graveled road from the county on the easement. While they are at it perhaps they coukd gravel my driveway??? Just kidding !

 ::)

And someone called me a "troll" !!!!!!!

Maybe someone can tell me why Road 5 appears on a 1954 map as running north to Killdeer and Killdeer runnng west to just west of Road 5?  Why would this road be put on a 1954 landowner's map of Elk County if there were not a road there?  And in 1954 only one Perkins owned land in that vicinity and that was only 80 acres.

Wilma, why are you even looking at a map that is 56 years old. It has no relevance to what exists today.  I am quite sure there were a lot of roads on that 1954 map that aren't there now.   Why not look at maps from 2000 to present.  That would be more current information and relevant to the conversation

I just learned my neighbor has an old road running in back of his proprety that hasn't been used for years and they don't grade or rock it. Go figure?

Quote from: srkruzich on July 08, 2011, 08:44:24 AM
Wilma, why are you even looking at a map that is 56 years old. It has no relevance to what exists today.  I am quite sure there were a lot of roads on that 1954 map that aren't there now.   Why not look at maps from 2000 to present.  That would be more current information and relevant to the conversation

LOL...Have lived for an extended period of time in Elk County, I can assure you that a 1954 map would be very relevant to this conversation!  Nothing much has changed from that period of time to this, except maybe the number water sheds that were built and the number of hog buildings out on the Bellar place... ;)

Quote from: Catwoman on July 08, 2011, 01:40:42 PM
...Nothing much has changed from that period of time to this, except maybe the number water sheds that were built and the number of hog buildings out on the Bellar place...

And job availability, economic development, youth residence retention, population, attitudes........  Actually, those have changed.  Many have likely gotten worse.

Will there's one thing that's gone up..... taxes.  Sadly, much else is just as outdated as Wilma's parchment map.

Well, that's part of the charm of Elk County...Slower pace...Not as involved...Easier to understand.  I loved living there while I was there...But am rather relieved to be back in a place where there are easily accessible amenities such as Wally World, Target and Sam's Club! lol

Quote from: Catwoman on July 08, 2011, 02:37:34 PM
...But am rather relieved to be back in a place where there are easily accessible amenities such as Wally World, Target and Sam's Club! lol

And running water and flush toilets?  How are the private roads?  Rocked & graded?

Sorry catwoman, that kind of catty litter is your territory, I forgot.

There was nothing catty in what I said, Patsy... ::)...There is nothing admirable or fun about paying 3.55/gal to drive an hour one way to get to common conveniences.  Just ask any of the single parents who are having to foot the bill alone, with no help from a spouse bringing in another income.  You can pull back in your claws, you red/white/blue-striped tomcat... ;D ::)

Quote from: Catwoman on July 08, 2011, 02:52:51 PM
There was nothing catty in what I said...

Try reading for understanding, sirry roman... what I said was on the catty side, and my apology was in recognition of your claim the other day that catty remarks were your domain.  I didn't want to step on Your Cattiness' reserved territory.

Quote from: Catwoman on July 08, 2011, 01:40:42 PM
LOL...Have lived for an extended period of time in Elk County, I can assure you that a 1954 map would be very relevant to this conversation!  Nothing much has changed from that period of time to this, except maybe the number water sheds that were built and the number of hog buildings out on the Bellar place... ;)

Then why in the world do they bother with the cost of updating maps?

Quote from: Ross on July 08, 2011, 03:03:38 PM
Then why in the world do they bother with the cost of updating maps?

It's 'busywork'.  Maybe they get grants.  Free money, you know.   ;D

Quote from: Patriot on July 08, 2011, 02:59:49 PM
Try reading for understanding, sirry roman... what I said was on the catty side, and my apology was in recognition of your claim the other day that catty remarks were your domain.  I didn't want to step on Your Cattiness' reserved territory.

My sincere apologies for misreading you, Patriot... ;D...I appreciate your appreciation of my station on this Forum-sized nation! lol  <retracting claws...Prrrrrrrrrring>

Quote from: Catwoman on July 08, 2011, 03:11:51 PM
My sincere apologies for misreading you, Patriot... ;D...I appreciate your appreciation of my station on this Forum-sized nation!

Apology accepted, but please don't confuse my 'acknowledgement of' as 'appreciation for'.  It isn't.   :)

Awww, Patriot...You had to go and spoil the moment... :'(...<ding,ding> OK, back to our respective corners...Let's make it a clean fight! lol   ::) ;D

QuoteThen why in the world do they bother with the cost of updating maps?

Even in 3 months, landownership changes hands, parcels split, easements are written, etc.  Even some of the rivers change their course over time. 
That's why maps are updated, and what one might view on a 1954 map, may not be relavent..MAY or MAY NOT.

Yup, land changes hands...But I sincerely doubt that any of the roads have been diverted or re-routed.   Now, roads being closed because of dangerous conditions?  I don't know...But I'm sure one of the experts-in-residence could answer... ;D.  My bet is that if you laid a plot of Elk County 1954 roads over a plot of Elk County 2011 roads, they'd match up pertinear perfectly...Whatcha think? 

Almost, Cat, almost.  What is pertinent about a 1954 map?  The landowners.  Most of the land in that area has changed hands in the last 56 years.  Whatever roads that are there now were built before 1954 by people that are not even alive now.  How can today's landowners and commissioners be blamed for roads created at a time that they were needed.  Today's landowners and commissioners had nothing to do with the building of these roads.  The reason that they might still be maintained could lie in the fact that nobody ever did anything about closing them or giving orders to not maintain them.  IMHO that would be called oversight.

Good point, Wilma...Good to read you again, too!  ;)

To be totally accurate, Limestone Road in front of our old place was reconfigured some time back because Clear Creek had shifted north and was encroaching on the road.They took a chunk of our land and rebuilt the road north of where it had been and left us with a piece south between the road and the creek. It didn't matter, but it does look funny to have what's left of the old ranch sign on the other side of the road instead of at the foot of the driveway.

I have noticed that the creek cuts off a big bite of the corner.  That low water bridge is very inviting to stop on and just look up or down the creek.  But my husband would never ever turn that way.  Said we had no business on that road and we would go north to the next low water bridge.  There we would sometimes fish off the bridge.  Could almost always catch a good mess of black perch in a short time.  And we had permission from the landowners at that time to stop and fish whenever we wanted.  Now I don't even know who owns that land.

QuoteThe reason that they might still be maintained could lie in the fact that nobody ever did anything about closing them or giving orders to not maintain them.  IMHO that would be called oversight.

I agree.  Oh Lord!  did I just agree with Wilma????    ;D

Oh the other hand, it could be misconstrued/interpreted (if no one was paying attention) as a violation of county's resources if it was being graded.

Perhaps we need 3 hands for:
1.  the truth;
2 the other truth;
3 what it is.

I think #3 and #1 are mingled with #3 and #2.

ready

Quote from: readyaimduck on July 08, 2011, 08:19:24 PM
Perhaps we need 3 hands for:
1.  the truth;
2 the other truth;
3 what it is.

I think #3 and #1 are mingled with #3 and #2.

ready

Extremely well put, ready.  ;D ;D

Well said, Ready... ;)

someone asked why a list of the landowners was important...i've heard rumor that the majorty of land the towers will sit on is perkins. we have a perkins as a commissioner that was allowed to vote on allowing the windfarm here in the first place. that by itself is shady as hell. not to mention the role that elk konnected is playing in this, and yet again theres that connection with a commissioner. but then again the shady politics of this county go beyond a simple windfarm.

Perkiins does not own the most land within the boundaries of the wind farm.  They are second in the number of acres owned.  Four landowners own more than a thousand acres each.  There are eleven other landowners owning less than a thousand acres each.  In case you are curious about county commissioners involved in land ownership in this area, there are 600 acres that have the name Liebau on it.  There is also a Roe among the owners.

Quote from: Wilma on July 16, 2011, 03:31:35 PM
Perkiins does not own the most land within the boundaries of the wind farm.  They are second in the number of acres owned.  Four landowners own more than a thousand acres each.  There are eleven other landowners owning less than a thousand acres each.  In case you are curious about county commissioners involved in land ownership in this area, there are 600 acres that have the name Liebau on it.  There is also a Roe among the owners.

Doesn't make it any better!  politiicians have a duty to recuse themselves when they will benefit from a deal like this. 

      Just being a member of a family doesn't mean you will "benefit" from what another family member has. Have you seen the will? Do you know what kind of relationship they have with each other? How many times are heirs "cut out" of the will ?

      Wilma has given you the name of a commisioner who "does" directly gain from the wind farm, yet no one has attacked him here, nor should they. The landowners benefit from the windfarm is not a result of any business acted upon by the county commision. The decision to build where they are was a result of several studies made by Tradewind Energy. Do you actually think they would be "steered" to a location by "polititians"? That wouldn't be very smart of them, now would it ? They chose the location based on it's potential for the best output of energy, ergo, the most income , for the operator, Enel, not to benefit anyone else. That's pure and simple business.

      If in 20yrs it is no longer a viable venture, they will walk away. And if they go bankrupt , the landowners will have some large pasture ornaments doing nothing.

In this case then, you are saying that Commissioners Hendricks and Liebau should both recuse themselves from voting on this issue.  In a Board of County Commissioners where there are only three members, who then, is going to cast the deciding vote?  Doesn't any matter need a majority vote?  How do you get a majority vote when only one member is allowed to vote?

Jefe, you are right about family members do not necessarily benefit from what their parents own.  In my job as a legal secretary, I used to type wills and there was more than once that children were left out of the will.  No one knows what goes on inside a family except the family and their attorneys.

     I am not sure just how many votes were made regarding this project, I wouldn't think very many, save the decision to take the PILOT money instead of taxing Enel . I don't think anyone has disputed the decision, only fought over what to spend it on, and where, which seems to be the bigger issue. This county has a history of dispute over who get's what, instead of working as one community, which I realize it is not, but the concept of unity could at least be given thought. " Together we stand,"

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 17, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
     I am not sure just how many votes were made regarding this project, I wouldn't think very many, save the decision to take the PILOT money instead of taxing Enel . I don't think anyone has disputed the decision, only fought over what to spend it on, and where, which seems to be the bigger issue. This county has a history of dispute over who get's what, instead of working as one community, which I realize it is not, but the concept of unity could at least be given thought. " Together we stand,"

The problem it seems on the Pilot is that you got this group that wants to spend it on trinkets that won't be there 10 years from now because the money will be gone and nothing to support it. Then on the other hand you got the folks that want to use it to reduce the debt the county is in as well as taxes on landowners.  The latter option would be the wisest move.  Get out of debt, require the county to stop running a deficit.  Make them balance the budget, operate with only money in hand and if it ain't there, it doesn't get done!

Only the county commissioners can make this decision.  I think that I remember that the top recommendations did concern lowering property taxes and the debt.  The flim-flam stuff that we hear so much about were way down on the list.

     I refered to a similar situation in an earlier post where the people decided to invest the money and use the proceeds of that investment to pay for projects. The problem now is , are there any good investments with that kind of return on the money?

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 17, 2011, 10:44:55 AM
     I refered to a similar situation in an earlier post where the people decided to invest the money and use the proceeds of that investment to pay for projects. The problem now is , are there any good investments with that kind of return on the money?

But that doesn't address the problem of running a deficit.  Fix that first then go for projects as money comes in.  You can't manage money when your constantly going into debt.   Once your budget is in the black, then you can look at investments. 

   Agreed. A bit of a problem worldwide right now.

Quote from: Jefe de vaca on July 17, 2011, 11:22:16 AM
   Agreed. A bit of a problem worldwide right now.

No one wants to do it the old fashioned way, save up for the luxuries.  growing up we got 1 family vacation our entire time growing up. Took my parents years to save up for it.   Today, i see folks take off on vacations they can't afford and pay on it for years to come because they charge it.  And this goes on every year. No wonder folks are bankrupt.   

The way i look at it, if folks like me gotta tighten the belt so does government. 

     Right on . I don't care to have any more than I need. I am a student of Thoreau, put your effort into your immediate needs, not money.

I did some research on the investment idea for the wind farm money. Unless you can find some undervalued stocks that pay consistent good dividends, or invest outside the country, say Canada or perhaps even Germany. Then you could strip the dividends to slowly pay down your debt or lower taxes. With public money you have to very very careful.  Or maybe check into a Vanguard or Fidelity mixed basket. (Public Funds) You have to be willing to not follow it every day or you'll go nutz whenever it goes down, and it will. It's not a good place for beginners to learn unless you have a trustworthy fund manager. I even checked out what New Castle Pension funds are doing, but it's not a good match for you folks. The lower the risk, the lower the return, but some things can do very well. Who manages the pension money now for your county employees? They might have some good suggestions.

commissioner owns land, commissioner votes on allowing the windfarm, commissioner then calls in elk konnected to help the citizens decide how to vote on what to spend the money on...shady as hell.

Quote from: Varmit on July 17, 2011, 04:06:25 PM
commissioner owns land, commissioner votes on allowing the windfarm, commissioner then calls in elk konnected to help the citizens decide how to vote on what to spend the money on...

..commissioner sits on the Elk Konnected steering committee, commissioner sits on commission which formally receives report from Elk Konnected on the 'community consensus' of a group representing less than 10% of the population on how to spend monies received from a PILOT agreement the commissioner negotiated and signed.  Commissioner vocally defends Elk Connected in commission meetings. Commissioner moves and votes affirmatively to give the LBA taxpayer monies (LBA president also sits on Elk Konnected steering committee). Will commissioner participate & vote on how the PILOT monies are spent? Will Elk Connected receive any of those monies, directly or indirectly?  Circular?  Sounds that way.  But where does the circle begin.... and end?  In the shade?

QuoteBut where does the circle begin.... and end?  In the shade?

please group Ross' first post on Elk County's Handout and Freedom Of Speech in AZ by Steve.

perhaps they are interconnected? 
Maybe not.  Maybe so.  Need solid facts. 
Seems like everyone is very evasive until it happens.

ready

Please refer to your childhood stories:
The Grasshopper and the Ant.

GREAT THEORY, if it works.

The citizens will not vote on how to spend the money.  Only the commissioners can do that.  The citizens voted on what they thought was the most important and reported to the commissioners.  The commissioners are not obligated to go along with that vote.  It is their reponsibility to make their own decision.  I trust my county commissioner to do what is best.  Why don't you trust yours?

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
The citizens will not vote on how to spend the money.  Only the commissioners can do that.  The citizens voted on what they thought was the most important and reported to the commissioners.  The commissioners are not obligated to go along with that vote.  It is their reponsibility to make their own decision.  I trust my county commissioner to do what is best.  Why don't you trust yours?

Because politicians have only their best interests as top priority.

QuoteThe citizens voted on what they thought was the most important and reported to the commissioners.

   how?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

 

QuoteThe citizens will not vote on how to spend the money.  Only the commissioners can do that.

And, therein lies the issue. 

They reported to the commissioners.  How?
By going to the meetings and voicing their opinions?
By asking a 3rd party to speak for them?  (Elk Konnected)
Other unorthodox means?

Please explain.

I don't think I can do it justice, but there were several meetings at which the citizens were asked to write down what they thought were the most important issues.  The lists were collected and collated and the results given to the commissioners.  I don't know if they went to a commission meeting or just gave their findings to one of the commissioners.  I understand that this was done with the cooperation of the commissioners and done in more than one of the towns in Elk County.  Not having attended any of the meetings I can't say how they were conducted but I would say that if the citizens wrote their opinions of their own free will, that it should be a good indication of what Elk County citizens want.

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 06:49:57 PM
I don't think I can do it justice, but there were several meetings at which the citizens were asked to write down what they thought were the most important issues.  The lists were collected and collated and the results given to the commissioners.  I don't know if they went to a commission meeting or just gave their findings to one of the commissioners.  I understand that this was done with the cooperation of the commissioners and done in more than one of the towns in Elk County.  Not having attended any of the meetings I can't say how they were conducted but I would say that if the citizens wrote their opinions of their own free will, that it should be a good indication of what Elk County citizens want.

So where is the record of what each citizen wrote?  Not talking about a collated copy. The only thing that makes it on that is what hte commissioners want on it.  Usually that is what supports their agenda. 

When you conduct things like this, there should be a paper trail for all to see.   Just because you or any of the commissioners say thats what the citizens want, doesn't mean squat.  Only hard evidence  is acceptable.  THAT Is the very reason we VOTE on things and have records to prove that citizens voted for this or voted for that.

Again, unlike you who for some unknown reason trust your politicians implicitly, i wouldn't trust ANY politician as far as a i could throw them. 

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
The citizens will not vote on how to spend the money.  Only the commissioners can do that.  The citizens voted on what they thought was the most important and reported to the commissioners.  The commissioners are not obligated to go along with that vote.  It is their reponsibility to make their own decision.  I trust my county commissioner to do what is best.  Why don't you trust yours?

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
The citizens voted on what they thought was the most important

And you know that because  -------
You have the list of who voted on what...... Right??????
Would you share that with the County Citizens????

I think you are the one posted how the meetings were conducted.

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 06:49:57 PM
I don't think I can do it justice, but there were several meetings at which the citizens were asked to write down what they thought were the most important issues.  The lists were collected and collated and the results given to the commissioners.  I don't know if they went to a commission meeting or just gave their findings to one of the commissioners.

I can 'do it justice'... remember the Delphi Technique of creating a 'public consensus?  Read the following link carefully, please.  Any similarities?  You betcha!

Read this carefully:  http://www.vlrc.org/articles/110.html (http://www.vlrc.org/articles/110.html)

Quote from: Wilma on July 17, 2011, 06:49:57 PM
I understand that this was done with the cooperation of the commissioners and done in more than one of the towns in Elk County.  Not having attended any of the meetings I can't say how they were conducted but I would say that if the citizens wrote their opinions of their own free will, that it should be a good indication of what Elk County citizens want.

Who compiled the results... those who facilitated the meeting.  How does one know if their input was even considered?  They don't.  And our elected officials supported this Marxist/Hegelian method of obtaining 'consensus'?  Shame on them.  What ever happened to public forums and Roberts Rules of Order and parliamentary procedure?

There were supposedly "surveys" mailed out to 140 people in the "Elk Konnected" area, which includes Severy because they are part of West Elk's school district (but didn't include any of Montgomery or Chautauqua counties, which are part of Elk Valley's school district). 140 surveys out of over 3000 people. That's a real "fair" showing of who wants what, right? I, nor anyone I've talked to, have ever received a survey. Those who received the surveys were probably already Elk Konnected followers or people who could be easily swayed for the "greater good" of this county, not average joes. They want to know what tax paying Elk County Citizens want to do with money they don't have yet, then they need to send EVERYONE a survey to find a consensus of what people actually want, not what a group of people want and then have a TOWN HALL MEETING for everyone in the county that is NOT RUN by a 3rd party facilitator/Elk Konnected. And then a vote on the best ideas for the county with the individuals who submitted the ideas name on it, that way people will know who wants what and the individual could be asked for reasons why they want such a thing (for the sake of argument, say a golf course) and ALL OF THE CITIZENS could make up their minds what is good for this county. Not a group like EK and not just the commissioners. ---MR KSH

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 17, 2011, 09:10:38 PM
There were supposedly "surveys" mailed out to 140 people in the "Elk Konnected" area, which includes Severy because they are part of West Elk's school district (but didn't include any of Montgomery or Chautauqua counties, which are part of Elk Valley's school district). 140 surveys out of over 3000 people. That's a real "fair" showing of who wants what, right?

And that's just how Elk Konnected got started...

Read their 'story' here:  http://www.publicsquarecommunities.com/community/elk/aboutus.php (http://www.publicsquarecommunities.com/community/elk/aboutus.php)

I vote, live and pay taxes here.  I was never 'surveyed', were you?  I was never 'interviewed', were you?  I never voted for or against Elk Konnected being selected to be the 'voice of the people', did you?

Stay connected,  citizens.  You have the final say. 

Quote from: kshillbillys on July 17, 2011, 09:10:38 PM
There were supposedly "surveys" mailed out to 140 people in the "Elk Konnected" area, which includes Severy because they are part of West Elk's school district (but didn't include any of Montgomery or Chautauqua counties, which are part of Elk Valley's school district). 140 surveys out of over 3000 people. That's a real "fair" showing of who wants what, right? I, nor anyone I've talked to, have ever received a survey. Those who received the surveys were probably already Elk Konnected followers or people who could be easily swayed for the "greater good" of this county, not average joes. They want to know what tax paying Elk County Citizens want to do with money they don't have yet, then they need to send EVERYONE a survey to find a consensus of what people actually want, not what a group of people want and then have a TOWN HALL MEETING for everyone in the county that is NOT RUN by a 3rd party facilitator/Elk Konnected. And then a vote on the best ideas for the county with the individuals who submitted the ideas name on it, that way people will know who wants what and the individual could be asked for reasons why they want such a thing (for the sake of argument, say a golf course) and ALL OF THE CITIZENS could make up their minds what is good for this county. Not a group like EK and not just the commissioners. ---MR KSH

Survey? When did this survey thing supposedley nappen? This is the first time that I heard about a survey.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 17, 2011, 09:55:52 PM
Survey? When did this survey thing supposedley nappen? This is the first time that I heard about a survey.

Read the link in my post above.

The one and only 300 foot high turbine of Elk County lost a 66 foot blade and another was badly damaged late on Sunday night.

Local landowner and VFW councillor for the area Jarhead De Plonk-Edwards told reporters from the Wind Farm Weekly News, "I'd just come out of the bar after a spot of cheer and was staggering down the road towards home and the little woman, as one does, when I stopped for a quick whiz and actually saw a series of white and colored lights, round, colored pulsing lights that seemed to be hovering, you know, kinda like one of those Huey's I used to ride back in the bush, back in Nam.  I swear the bastard shot at me before I could fire back.  When I did, I think I hit the SOB five or six times.  That was just before everything went blank and I fell head-over-ass into the ditch sucking my thumb."

Ego-tricity Energy, which manages the wind farm site for the E.K.,LLC Projects division, said while investigations continued they were not ruling anything out but the extent of damage was "unique" as the central hub of the turbine was splattered with blood and white feathers.  At this time they discounted a deliberate act of sabotage by one of the many anti-wind farm militant groups.

Both the Catholic and Protestant churches have been inundated by hysterical calls from Christian fundamentalists, alarmed by the Ego-tricity "blood and white feathers" announcement, questioning, "Whether one of G-d's Angels might have flown into the turbine by accident" according to a local, a Ms. Judy Harder.

The turbine is the first one built at the Howard Clough site.. owned by a local land-grabbin' baron,  Mr. P.A.Triot.. which has been fully operational since Nov. 2012.  A section of one broken blade has been recovered from where it plunged through a neighboring farm house roof, owned by S.R.Kruzich, but not before it knocked over 17 bee hives and killing 28 goats.  This is being examined by a team of unemployed Polish boilermakers from Moline and Señor Sod Buster, a local alien.

Elk County Ufologists have been called in by the E.K, LLC Steering Commitee and are meeting in the Howard Arms public wash house which is owned by the Steering Commitee, to discuss the incident over cold beers and goat meat pies.  According to the Ufologists, they had received many reports of UFO activity in the area and had teams searching for clues.

One theory is that the flying saucer responsible for the damage may have received orders from its mother ship to fire a proton torpedo at the wind turbine blades as they were upsetting the balance of the Earth's gaia spirit.

This speculation is apparently backed by a graffiti-style message stating such that was spray-painted across the wind farm gates.... written entirely in fluent Klingon... and signed by LarryJ the Merciless, as he was returning to his home planet.

Conversely the UFO lunatic fringe group Bonkers is making claims that an alien flying saucer hit the wind turbine due to the fact the blades are not fitted with hi-viz reflectors or lights, and once their craft is repaired they will return for revenge.  "It's gonna be just like that effin' Apocalyptic movie, 'The Day the Earth Went All To Shit', when all them radioactive titanium cockroaches get loose and eat every freakin' thing in sight.  It will blow yer effin' mind," their chief spokesthing, Herman Scrunt, informed a group of amused media hacks from the X-Files tabloid gutter press.

On a saner note, Elk County Sheriff's officers are currently examining the corpse of a wayward thirty foot wing-spanned Kierkegaard's Giant Albatross... discovered by octogenarian pensioner Ms. Candida Muffrot and her nanny and head masseuse for Elk County's Sharpe Shooter Union, Ms. Teresa while walking her dogs.... in a terminal state of mortal disarray in the nearby woods, with the leading edge portion of a wind turbine blade embedded in its skull.  Early assessments by forensic experts reveal the dead seabird... which was said to have been smuggled into this country by Ms. Teresa's husband...  may possibly have been involved in the previous night's incident.

Quote from: Janet Harrington on July 17, 2011, 09:55:52 PM
Survey? When did this survey thing supposedley nappen? This is the first time that I heard about a survey.

Just before they started recieving all those $50 donations from 60 unknown people to start Elk Konnected, they mailed out the survey's to 140 unknown people, .just like the unknow names on all those suggestions on their liist shown at
http://www.cascity.com/howard/forum/index.php/topic,11780.0.html 

That's the whole point. No one knows anything at all about Elk Konnected. Except they use people behind closed doors they call followers in the open they call them volunteers. Do you get it now?

Who are the admitted members or the registered members or the owners that steer the steering committee?

   GOOD one Warph! Made me laugh out loud......cat thought I'd lost my mind  ;D

LOL...Good one, Warph!!  And, Mrs. C...I'd know better than to make that claim about you...Your wits are sharper than a surgeon's knife, any day!  ;) ;D

 ;D LOL

Warph, best post on the topic yet. :laugh:

Señor Cortador de Pradera

Makes more sense than most of the posts on this board, Thanks, Warph.

WOW. How funny is that; real honest satire!

No Diane, that is not honest. Ol WARPH should know Marines didn't ride Huey's out to the bush. Army rode in Huey's. Marines hitched a ride in junk ass CH-46's. The only time Marines got a ride in a Huey was a Dust -Off, med-evac chopper. WARPH's brother will probably put an ass whup'n on him for that mistake. ;D
Good satire though WARPH

Warph, best story I have read today.  Should grab an award of some kind.

Quote from: jarhead on July 18, 2011, 10:22:59 AM
No Diane, that is not honest. Ol WARPH should know Marines didn't ride Huey's out to the bush. Army rode in Huey's. Marines hitched a ride in junk ass CH-46's. The only time Marines got a ride in a Huey was a Dust -Off, med-evac chopper. WARPH's brother will probably put an ass whup'n on him for that mistake. ;D
Good satire though WARPH

Wha.... I thought you were in the Army.  LOL... just kidding.  The Marines were lucky to get someting to fly.... there was a time or two we Air Force REMF's had to pick up a grunt in a HH43-B because they stepped in too much shit and needed a ride out.

Thought I was in the Army ? You just bought yourself two cans of whup ass , my friend. One from Larry for thinking I would be allowed in his Army and one from Chesty Puller Jr. here.
HH43-B ? Holy shit WARPH---just how old are you ? I think them old birds were in moth balls by the time I got to Nam. You must have been there in the early days and I highly suspect it was you that had them lads riled up by the time I got there. Thanks !!
I did see a few of them old 34's still flying around but never had the pleasure of riding in one of them old junkers.
We were flying out to the bush in a CH-46 once and my  beloved platoon commander hollered at the peon sitting next to him and said "watch this" .Scar made his way to the front of the bird ,between the pilot & co-pilot and whacked one upside his flight helmet with his .45 and hollered to him," this is a hijacking---take us to Cuba" I would still be in Leavenworth if I had pulled a stunt like that. Guess ol Scar figured the worst they could do was shave his head and send him to Nam.
:)

LOL------------I always thought when Warph was in, they didn't use or even have eggbeaters then.  They didn't use them until Korea, right? 

I always got to ride in the Medevac Huey's when I was needed somewhere in a hurry, but stayed on the ground in a 3/4 ton vehicle with a big, I mean huge, RED CROSS emblem on the side.  That gave them an easier target to shoot at. 

And, not to belittle my Air Force brethren, but when I got introduced at the initiation to the American Legion the other day, the commander announced my name and that I was in the Air Force.  I had to raise my hand and immediately correct, or should I say, mention that I was in the Army.  No slight intended for the blue suits.  We did have a small Air Force detachment that had a trailer on site.  They were top secret at the time and didn't want to mix in with us ground pounders.  As one of my cousins did serve in the Air Force, I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them.  Did I clear that up?

Larryj

The "in lieu of taxes" thing doesnt make sense to me.  Can someone please explain it?  Im not sure how much taxes are, but why would a company pay say $1,000,000 in lieu of a $500,000 tax break?  What if they dont pay 3-4-5 years down the road, because they might not be making as much money as they want, what can be done? anything? 

Like granddaddy always said " if its too good to be true, then they lying to you"

Just another little thing i found, good thing we are "buying american" This is why green is the new red.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enel)