Blow ups in Spencers

[PJ Hardtack]

Most folks know that you risk a mag tube detonation if you slap the nose cap shut on a Henry, letting the follower smack down on any thing but a full mag. Somewhere I've read that it happened with RF ammo back in the day as well due to the fulminate of mercury priming mix.

It happened with Spencers as well, as witnessed by a letter from Col. Hiram Berdan to Col. Thomas Scott, Asst. Sec. of War, taken from "U.S. Sharpshooters - Berdans's Civil War Elite" by Roy Marcot.

"Colonel

While trying the Spencer gun yesterday, the butt of one of the cartridges burst, and some powder blew through the slot in the gate, into my face and eye, destroying the entire sight for the moment. The surgeon thinks, however, that he will be able to save it.

I am unable to go out today, and write to ask if the agent or manufacturer of the Spencer gun is now in the city. If so, will you be kind enough to request him to call on me, that we may see if it is not possible to guard against similar accidents with the new guns. The bearer, Mr. Doherty, will take any note or message you may desire to send.

H. Berdan, Col. Commanding U.S.S.S."

The Sharpshooters came very close to adopting the Spencer as their rifle but the supplier could not meet the demand at the time.

It is uncanny how similar the Spencers look like the Sharps millitary rifles and carbines.

[Oregon Bill]

I could be wrong, but do not believe this is necessarily a magazine tube detonation, but the failure of the butt, or rear, of a cartridge with corresponding release of gas into the shooter's face. Or did I read it incorrectly?

[PJ Hardtack]

Yes, you read it correctly. It was an ammo failure as opposed to a mag tube detonation.

I posted it as a reminder that with repro Spencers, we run the risk of a mag tube detonation with pointed bullets and/or sensitive or high primers.

I recently ordered an Accurate 51-350S DC mould to go along with a Rapine RNFP mould I have on hand. Both designs have a wide meplat.

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[Arizona Trooper]

Marcot's Spencer book does mention that there were some magazine explosions during their period of use. Those early rimfires were all over the map as far as sensitivity. Some didn't take much of a hit to make them go. 45-70s had the same problem early on. Most of the magazine explosions in 1881 Marlins and Whitney Burgess rifles were attributable to one particular ammo contractor, who used unusually sensitive primers.

It can happen with CF ammo in Spencers, but is much less likely than Henrys since Spencers use (or absolutely SHOULD ONLY USE) rifle primers, which are much harder and less sensitive that 44-40 pistol primers. I know of one original Spencer that was blown up back in the 1980s when CF blocks first became available. The shooter was badly hurt, but recovered OK. The carbine was actually repaired and bought by a reenactor. It's pretty certain that this incident was due to pistol primers. 

[DJ]

Glib recollection:  I recall that Christopher Spencer had some connection with the Sharps company before branching out on his own.  I also recall reading  that Spencer was friends with the Sharps company's chief armorer, Richard S. Lawrence, and that the friendship continued while both companies were in existence--there are even reports of Sharps supplying some parts to the infant Spencer company--presumably screws or other generic pieces..  The Sharps lever is reputed to be the inspiration for the shape of the Spencer lever--definitely a family resemblance.

--DJ

[Drydock]

The back action lockwork is essentialy identical,  Spencer tried for commonality of as many parts as possible with the Sharps (At the time the most widely issued breachloader) to reduce costs and ease field supply of small parts.  The Hammers started as common castings.  The barrel bands are the same, as are the forearms, with the Sharps needing one additional cut for the lever spring.  The barrels also start out as identical blanks, with the Spencer needing a few extra cuts.

[PJ Hardtack]

Back to the blow up discussion ....

I've been present twice when three rds went off in the mag tube of repro Henrys. In one instance after 10 rds were loaded, in  the other 5 rds. In both cases, the nose cap was slapped shut, the follower allowed to drop unchecked.

It wasn't much of a drop in the first instance with 10 rds, but it was sufficient to case the detonation. In the 5 rd incident, the follower went down like a runaway elevator!

This means that theoretically, it would be possible for a Spencer shooter to drop 7 rds into the mag tube if the rifle was held anywhere near vertical and suffer the same fate.

The 44-40 Henrys were shooting 200 gr bullets. The Spencer spits out 350s, so the weight is sufficient to cause detonation. Hence the need for RNFPs.

[treebeard]

This thread makes me think I should switch to large rifle primers on my 44-40 Spencer rifle. I do not drop cartridges in the Spencer mag but a little more safety never hurts.

[pony express]

You can interchange small rifle and small pistol primers, but I believe the large rifle are just a bit taller than large pistol, which would actually make the situation worse.

[Rim fire]

I use large pistol primers since they do seat well below the back of the case, making the loaded round safer to load in the magizine.

[PJ Hardtack]

I use large pistol primers since they do seat well below the back of the case, making the loaded round safer to load in the magizine.

Maybe safer to load, but I've heard that deep seated primers can be set back with force, causing other issues.

There have been a few "primer activated" semi-auto rifle designs, one of them a prototype Garand and some European models. That tells us that they come back with considerable force.

Doesn't sound like a good idea ..... 

[Trailrider]

IIRC, there were reports of Spencer's having magazine explosions when dropped to the ground so the butt hit hard! There is NO QUESTION that you don't want a magazine explosion while shooting a centerfire Spencer. It could ruin your whole day, due to the proximity of your face to the buttstock!    The rounds I've loaded were cut down .50-70 brass, which use large rifle primers. I also made sure to use cast bullets with a meplat exceeding .250" in diameter, which is larger than the diameter of the primer pocket, and being sure the surface of the primer is below the surface of the cartridge case! This was a M1869 Carbine, cal. .56-56.

Historically, there were definite problems with original Spencer rimfire ammo, depending on the manufacturer.  IIRC, C.D. Leet has a bad rep for rounds that wouldn't fire, probably due to getting insufficient fulminate compound uniformly around the rim. Possibly, too much priming compound collecting at one spot could make a particular round more sensitive!

[PJ Hardtack]

Makes you appreciate the quality and quantity of modern .22 RF ammo, doesn't it?

MILLIONS of rounds of it produced daily and it all goes bang!