Do Spencers need to be pistol caliber for NCOWS events?

[Lone Gunman]

Griz,
  I can still find some good remedies in my Lavendar suitcase that my other personality carrys. You know the snake oil salesperson. I have various ointments, salves and concoctions to cure most anything. Because the chant is naughty, I cannot post it here. If one needs to know, PM me.
But I know it will take the warts off your hands.Kayleen

How is it with stains?

[Black River Smith]

I have a general question for the people in the know.  This is not to start anything, just want to understand.

When did the pistol cartridge restriction go into affect for NCOWS?  I don't remember it being in affect at the 99 National.  My first NCOWS.  I was using an original 73 in 44/40 for that shoot so if did not matter so.

But I thought that NCOWS, back then and at it beginnings, (from reading the Approved list) allowed all rifles (levers) (all calibers) for use as a main match gun.

Please correct me or straighten out my thinking here.

Thanks

Black River Smith

[Wymore Wrangler]

Black River Smith, during the previous debate on the Spencer, I emailed George Glenn (the co- founder of the organization and who also wrote the original bylaws) and also called him on the phone about the original intent of the bylaws, his statement was that it was common sense that pistol caliber rifles only were allowed and at that time, he did not believe the 56-50 was an approved caliber.  Except for alot of off color comments on the subject which has then and now detracted from the debate, the facts on the 56-50 damaging steel targets has been positive and enlighting and may be accepted by all NCOWS posses....

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[French Jack]

Cal and Lou,
Having used my Taylor's Spencer, and seen the results firsthand of use of originals in the same 'caliber',,, 56-50, I can honestly state that there have been no instances of any unusual or accelerated target damage from their use either at Johnson County Rangers, or at Hooten Old Town.  Great Lakes Freight and Mining Co. has had the same findings.

Out of curiosity several months ago, I conduclted several trials complete with chronograph.  The average velocity for the 56-50 Taylor's was 900 fps. from the carbine with its 20" barrel.  Foir comparison, 45 Colt loads from a '73 Winchester with smokeless cowboy loads was 1250 fps.  I ran the calculations for energy, and the results were basically even.  Even with a heavier bullet (100 gr.), and a larger bore size, they are neck and neck as far as kinetic energy.  These loads were with full capacity charges of FFG Goex, 34 gr., and a 350 gr. bullet.  The 45 Lc. was with 255 gr. bullet, and 8 gr. Unique.

These results are easily verifiable by anyone with a chronograph, and a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for the formula. 

The decision of allowing or not is up to your posse, this is only offered as a bit of information for your consideration.

Have a Merry Charistmas, see you at the Convention, I hope.

[Grizzle Bear]

Jack, how are you getting 34 grains of black powder in a Spencer case?  Drop tube?  I can only get about 28 grains in mine.


And for everybody: The reason for the "pistol caliber rifle" stipulation was to prevent folks from bringing a Winchester 94 in .30-30, with jacketed bullets to a shoot.  Which would make ugly dents in a target.

But in reading through the new, improved By-Laws, I can no longer find that phrase.  The problem had been taken care of in the listing of approved firearms and cartridges.


Grizzle Bear

[French Jack]

Griz, that's drop tubed and compressed.  That's the absolute maximum that I can get in my cases.  I am sure that you will find the same limitations-- Bullet length has somewhat to do with it as well, the normal variance between different manufacturer's designs account for a few grains.  I definitely was not able to get the amount of powder claimed in the original baloon head rimfire cases, though.  I felt that for the testing to be definitive, I needed to get the maximum load of BP possible in the cases.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

[Some of the loading data is already posted in the Spencer Shooting society forum]

I use a drop tube with a modified Lee mould from a 500gr 50-70 bullet. It drops out at 350gr. (or just under)

It has a taller spire but flatter metaplate, which eliminates the problem of tube magazine chain fires.

If I use non-magnum rifle primers, 45gr of GOEX FFFg, I have consistently chrono'd the bullets at right around 820fps.

If I use 40gr of FFFg GOEX, it drops down to 780fps. (still LOTS-O-SMOKE!!!)
Thas 470ft-lbs of energy.
A 45lc with 250gr bullet marked as "cowboy action" from Ultramax or Winchester have chrono'd out at 1150fps from a 20" model 73.
Thats 734ft-lbs of energy.

All this adds up to one thing. I am out to make as much smoke and have as much fun as I can...not tear up targets or damage property.

If you folks at the NTR would like me to bring extra ammo and my chrono before the match (earlier in the day or the day before) i would be more than happy to. I promise to bring enough ammo for everyone to get a good feel for it.

The key to saving targets is to use a VERY soft lead bullet and slow it down to where the energy is under 600ft-lbs. (which is why the 1000fps rule is FAR more important than "caliber" classifications)

[44caliberkid]

Boy, did this thread fill up fast!   I saw it yesterday mornin' and it only had one response.   I thought about saying something like, "The 56-50 Spencer doesn't hit any harder than a 45 Colt warthog load out of a rifle." but I held my piece, having only hearsay knowledge about the 56-50 from reading internet posts and reloading info on the cartridge, when I was interested in using one.   Hopefully, by the time shooting season starts again (here in the northcountry) this will be resolved for all posses.   Even without knowing much about the ballistics of the 56-50, the first time I saw a case (or loaded round) I knew it wasn't much more than a 50 caliber pistol cartridge.   Add to that the time period in which it was developed, all calibers of brass cartridges were wimpy and underpowered.

[Black River Smith]

WW and Griz thanks

My question now goes beyond the Spencer, that is old and past and I don't want to go there again.  But what I was thinking was like the 86 the Marlin 81 and the 76's. (I know the 81 and 76 are not on the Approved list, but you get my idea)  Why approve the big bores levers when they can't be used for buffalo or matches.


Black River Smith

[Wymore Wrangler]

It is my understanding that the lever big bores are legal for long range NCOWS side matches with the exception of the Buffalo Long Range events which rifles must be pre-1873 designs....

[Lone Gunman]

(I know the 81 and 76 are not on the Approved list, but you get my idea)

Actually they are, the approved list starts out with:

It should go without saying, although it doesn't, that original antique versions of these firearms are also approved.

There are no reproductions of either rifle, originals are always legal.

It is my understanding that the lever big bores are legal for long range NCOWS side matches with the exception of the Buffalo Long Range events which rifles must be pre-1873 designs....

The long range matches aren't just sidematches, CVR hosts several two-day events through the year dedicated solely to big-bore shooting at mid to long range (and they really mean long range, I think up to 1,200 yds).  The buffalo shoots are restricted to blackpowder loads in  rifles used during the peak of the 'buffalo harvest' 1872-1882.


And lastly, for those who may not have ever had the opportunity to see a 56-50 Spencer round, here it is under the white arrow:



L-R: 38LC; 44WCF; 45LC; 56-50; 30-30; 45-70; 50-140; 40-90; .577/.450 Martini-Henry; 70-150 Winchester

Now, does it look like it belongs more with the 'pistol caliber' cartridges to it's left, or the 'rifle caliber' cartridges to it's right?

[Derby Younger]

And lastly, for those who may not have ever had the opportunity to see a 56-50 Spencer round, here it is under the white arrow:


What a cute little cartridge. Believe I want one.

[Kayleen]

Black River Smith,
 I invite you to attend one of the Buffalo Hunts  or mid to long range shoots held here at the Ackley range. Not only will you be impressed with the distance we can obtain, but with the shooters as well. They are truly a wonderful bunch of guys.
  Jay and Karen Weber do a fine job of running these shoots and they keep things moving right along.
There are others that have contributed to the success of these events. They have a moving buffalo target now. Very interesting to watch.
  Another thing that has taken off here is Silhouette shoots.
 It is great to be able to accomidate these folks with distances that are not possible at any other range in IOWA. Prairie Fire Range is a great place.
If you decide to attend one of these shoots, let me know.
Kayleen
.

[Black River Smith]

Kayleen, thanks for the invite.

Nice picture LG.

Black River Smith

[Frog69]

What about using a large bore lever action such as 45/70 as a main match gun if it could be successfully loaded down to lower velocities This brings up an issue when years ago when paint ball guns where first coming out there was a huge debate about the velocity that people had there paint ball markers  set for (They are adjustable) when they showed up to play they also found the best velocity was to be set at Max  200 fps any more than that had a tendency to harm the target That would be a big OUCH. My point is to correct that and provide some scene of safety it has become mandatory for people to Chronograph there paint ball markers at the range before allowed to play. IT just takes one or two shots folks to find out in the case of NCOWS if someone has or is shooting to hot of rounds. Make it mandatory maybe as a part of the check in or sign up process END OF PROBLEM. People should have an idea of what they are shooting anyway. I will bet most do not or have not Chronographed  there rounds they reload so for there own information and a great way to add to the safety of ranges in NCOWS .People would have less to be up set about and I bet the insurance companies would be happier.... Just a thought