Short Strokes BANNED?

[Fox Creek Kid]

I heard from a buddy that the short stroked rifles were banned at the KC meeting. Funny that there hasn't been a word of it here. Opinions?

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Fox Creek Kid,

After an extensive, quite civil, discussion the Congress voted 20 to 11 to ban short stroke modification.  As a NCOWS member and living in the KC area I attended the Congress meeting las Saturday when this was discussed and voted on.

[gw]

FCK-"Ban short-stroke modifications to lever-action rifles/shotguns"---passed by almost 2to1 margin of the Congress.
    My opinion----I hate being in the position of "banning" anything, probably due to too many times hearing anti-gunners demanding some weapon be "banned". That being said, the agenda item was voted on as written(above) and I voted yes on it. To do otherwise would mean I ignored the feelings of the posse I represent and also my own feelings that it was the right thing to do. It seems a little unfortunate to me that we had to make this subject an agenda item as me thinks "short stroking" is in no way authentic to the period and members are individually responsible for making sure their arms and outfits are authentic. 'Nuf said.
                                                                   
                                                                                                       GW
                                                                             Territorial Rep.-GLF&M

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[US Scout]

While I totally agree with the outcome, perhaps a change of wording might be appropriate.  "Banning" to me smacks of censorship and tyranny.

However, I find the thought of installing, let alone actually using, a "short-stroke" action on a lever-action rifle to be totally offensive and abominable , so I have no problem with it being labeled illegal, not allowed, prohibited, or some similar and unequivical designation. 

To allow short-stroking in NCOWS would be the equivilent of allowing the camel's nose into the tent - and the next thing you know, NCOWS would be little more than a shadow of SASS. 

But this is just my personal opinion. 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

There is a pretty good going over of what went on at the congress meeting last week including the topic of the short stroke kit and some of the other things that went down at the congress now on the closed NCOWS forum under the topic title "what's the verdict?". Probably since this concerns NCOWS members thats where it should be discussed. JMHO

Bill

[Major Matt Lewis]

I would anticipate a full report of the Congresses activities in The Shootist.  While I do not consider the Short Stroke an "Abomination."  I was vocally against the banning of the Short Stroke, but do understand why the Congress made the decision they did.  I don't think it productive to lament about a decision that has already been made.  Our organization is more or less, a representative democracy.  I am satisfied that my Senator and Representative did listen to my concerns.  My recommendation is that there be no sour grapes on the decision.  We take this decision and look at the positives that it can be for the organization as a whole.  I still believe that NCOWS greatest opportunity for growth is SASS shooters who are looking for something a little different.  I would agree with the folks that stated to me that this ban on Short Strokes may go to benefit that and we may see an actual growth to the organization. 

I reckon that's one way to look at the silver lining.... 

[Coop Trawlaine]

To start out, I am not a member of NCOWS but am a member of SASS and find your post very interesting.  Even the comment in relation to SASS.   As a novice CAS shooter I could  go along with the decision if I were a NCOWS member for the following reasons:

    I came into CAS believing that the intent of these organizations was fellowship and fun, foremost with added competition.  But all the modifications to SA's and lever actions, and shotguns, to me does not seem to make for a level playing field between those that come for the competition and those who attend for the "Fellowship" of other cowboy minded people and still want to compete.  Let's face the fact that some of the shooters are competition first and  have their SA's tricked out to the point that they are almost as, if not as, fast as automatic pistols, short stroking is about the same in relationship to lever action rifles.  I know a little bit of action work is necessary in some of these weapons, like changing the hand spring to reduce the force of the hammer drop on a '58 or a colt '60 conversion since it is sometimes even a little heavy for C&B.

    Now I am Mister Bottom Five and it doesn't bother me as with each match I find that I am maintaining or moving up and that is just fine with me.  The more I get to compete in this sport and I progress I am a happy cowboy.  However, and I know I am not the only one to notice, there are those shooters that consistantly come out in the top 5 or 10 and we know that they are good accurate shooters and also they have their guns tricked out beyond what would have been used in the relative time period.  And yet we constantly use the reference "Period Correct".

    I was lent a pair of Vaqueros by one of these individuals for my first CAS shooting experience and although I had one heck of a bang up time, excuse the pun, I did find that I did not feel as safe with the type of action as I do with the way my match guns I have now feel.  But he was use to them and I wasn't.  

This post discussion did bring these situations to mind and I believe there should be some common restrictions to just how much modification should be allowed in ALL CAS shooting venues.  

But that is just one shooter's opinion.

[Black River Smith]

FCK,

Go to page 2 of NCOWS see posting by OCB "Question, are short strokes NCOWS legal'  or something like that titile.  It took up 22 pages of very interesting and questionable debate.

Sorry you missed it.

Black River Smith

[Fox Creek Kid]

I didn't miss it, I read every page of that post, but that was all conjecture at that point. I am now talking of the matter "ex post facto" of the vote in KC.

[Kayleen]

  I very seldom comment on these topics but with banning items, the question comes to mind,
"How is this or for that matter anything else that is not allowed, going to be enforced? Haven't seen anything done in the past with items, what is going to make this different?
  Wrong clothing, boots, hats, leather, and guns and even allowing to young a shooters, what has been done about these things?
Kayleen

[Lone Gunman]

    My opinion----I hate being in the position of "banning" anything, probably due to too many times hearing anti-gunners demanding some weapon be "banned"...   GW     Territorial Rep.-GLF&M

While the wording of the agenda item and what we ultimately voted on was, "Ban short-stroke modifications to lever-action rifles/shotguns", the last time you'll see it officially written that way is when we publish the minutes of the meeting. That action will be implemented in our by-laws by adding the line: "Short-stroke modifications to lever-action rifles/shotguns", to the list of unapproved firearms & accouterments.

In response to Kayleen's question I'll paste my reply from the other board:


Amongst honorable folks that's all it needs to say, the spirit and intention are perfectly clear. Those who would nitpick at details and technicalities would not be part of the aforementioned group and quite frankly don't understand the concept on which NCOWS is based. We expect the enforcement mechanism to be each members sense of fair play. This has to come from within, not forced by any sort of non-existent Nazis.  I expect there will be those who feel this is a slap against what they call "real competitors", when in fact those folks don't really understand the concept of true competitiveness. "Real competitors" are not afraid to enter a contest where it is the personal skill and prowess of the contestants that determines the winner. Those who are less confident in their own abilities are the ones who seek to augment their skill by purchasing a mechanical advantage they hope the other party doesn't have.

[St. George]

The whole idea of the affair is to remain true to the time frame we represent.

An action that's been smoothed - ala' the handwork so common to the construction of the weapon during its period of manufacture is one thing.

Installing competition-based parts and the like is not...

Personal responsibility is of the essence, as far as this - or any of the other aspects of NCOWS is concerned.

The guidelines are clear - expectations are known - everyone's an adult.

Why should a responsible adult - knowing the requirements - need any form of supervision?

If there are 'things' being allowed that shouldn't be - a quiet word should be all that's needed to set them straight - no condemnation, no drama.
Operating off the principle that folks really 'do' want to abide by guidelines - if those same guidelines have blurred - refreshening them may be a good idea at a Posse Meeting.

Sure, you'll 'preach to the choir' for some - but you'll also clarify for those who may need it and in so doing - you avoid any singling out.
Everyone's happy...

Seeking an advantage over one's fellows by means of mechanical device - as opposed to ammunition expenditure and practice time - goes against the entire idea of 'the Cowboy Way' and the fairness it implies.

If one C&WAS group isn't following that particular path - it's still a helluva good idea - especially for NCOWS and its portrayal of a time when those things mattered.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Howdy! I have to ask this question, how does NCOWS enforce this rule or require a posse(s) to follow this or any rule(s) that eather they don't want to enforce or don't want to bother with taking the time to do checks or whatever it takes to ensure that the rule(s) are being followed? Another question, specifically, what are the guidelines to what is a shortstroked rifle? Or is this just windowdressing for an unenforceable rule? Just asking, I don't shoot a short-stroked rifle so this doesn't really effect me personally like some of the other new rules coming in 06' like: "No double loop shotgun belts!". I am interested in hearing some of the responces here.  Wild Ben Raymond 

[Lone Gunman]

It was pointed out to me that there may be some room to misinterpret a statement I made earlier.

Those who are less confident in their own abilities are the ones who seek to augment their skill by purchasing a mechanical advantage they hope the other party doesn't have.

The key word there is "SEEK" , I did not intend to imply that there IS any mechanical advantage to short stroked rifles. I continue to believe they are no more than a scam to separate the gullible from their money. The purpose of the testing I had proposed to do at the GAF Muster was to demonstrate that there was no reason to buy a short stroke, not to justify their approval. Sorry if anyone was confused as to my intentions.

[Lone Gunman]

...how does NCOWS enforce this rule...what are the guidelines to what is a shortstroked rifle?
  Wild Ben Raymond 

Short answer: This is a rule that will need to be enforced the same way we enforce the 'no zippered fly' rule.

While there is always the possibility of exception, for the most part a shooter would be aware of whether their own personal firearms had been short-stroked...that awareness is, in effect, the guideline. If someone truly feels they need to cheat (intransitive verb: to break the rules in a game, examination, or contest, in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage) in order to win, then their's will be a hollow victory.  While there will always be those who feel that anything worth winning is worth cheating for,  I'm sure those will be a distinct minority...just the same as those who insist on wearing zippered fly trousers. Besides, it would be inherently unfair to actively seek to enforce these rules since, at best, we would only be enforcing them on the incompetent cheats.  The truly devious would employ methods to avoid detection.

The question I'd be interested in hearing the response to is:

If everyone abides by the rules, and only uses firearms and equipment that are approved, how does that impose a disadvantage on anyone?

To quote a wise man     who posted elsewhere, "....suffice it to say that even baseball prohibits corked bats and it doesn't appear to have hurt that sport one bit."

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Lone Gunman, ST. George,
It's pretty obvious that there are still folks out there tha tdon't understand the word(s) Honesty and Integrity. A cheat is gonna cheat no matter what the rule is and should be called just that, cheaters or rule breakers!!

Bill

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Howdy! I have to ask this question, how does NCOWS enforce this rule or require a posse(s) to follow this or any rule(s) that eather they don't want to enforce or don't want to bother with taking the time to do checks or whatever it takes to ensure that the rule(s) are being followed?

No enforcement mechanism is in place.

Another question, specifically, what are the guidelines to what is a shortstroked rifle?

There are no guidelines.

Or is this just windowdressing for an unenforceable rule?

That's up to you to decide. But sometime in the future, someone may think a shooter has a short stroke kit in his rifle. Doesn't matter if he does or not, he gets to be labeled as a cheater.

You think not? Just read the responses to your question.

AnnieLee

[Frog69]

I don't mean to add another log to the fire but, it is very interesting when we talk about history in regard to advantages in altering a firearm.  I believe if we examine history we will find people always looked for advantages. Altering firearms for advantages which they may have seen either in perception or in reality or for individual taste when dealing with there own firearms.  Example:  Colt armys with 7 1/2 inch barrels that were routinely cut to 5" or shorter to allow the gun to be more easily handled (an advantage),  the removal of the front sight off of a pistol usually seen with shorter barrel pistols to allow the gun to be easily removed from leather with little to no drag (an advantage), the shortening of a shot gun easier to handle (a advantage), pistols that have had there hammers bobbed to allow it to be put in a pocket and easily withdrawn (an advantage), a double action pistol that have had the single action sears removed or filed upon to only allow the gun to operate in double action (an advantage), There were invented numerous types of holsters and rigs including a clip type shoulder holster which allows quick retrieval of the firearm (a advantage).  The list could go on and on some of these are documentable and some are not but all of them most certainly happened back in the 1800s. I guess history is full of gamers. Here I have seen people talk about the possibility of the people in the 1800s having there guns smoothed up or tweaked.  Let's put this in historical context were is the documentation to this?  I believe most generally (unless you made your living by the gun) most of the people that bought or owned firearms used off the shelf stock items.  Why would they smooth up something they used on limited basis to hunt or defend themselves? I would bet they would be more interested in its dependably and cost then how easy it was to cock or how light the trigger pull is or how smoothed the action was 
 just a thought

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Amongst honorable folks that's all it needs to say, the spirit and intention are perfectly clear. Those who would nitpick at details and technicalities would not be part of the aforementioned group and quite frankly don't understand the concept on which NCOWS is based.

Honesty and Integrity.

Come on folks, I think we can all police ourselves. You may not know it but the issue is mute and whether you like it or not short stroke kits are no longer allowed in NCOWS. As far as policing individual shooters, well, you all know if you have such a modification or not, RIGHT? Once the bylaws go into effect and you want to continue to use them, and can live with yourself, hey, more power to you.............

Man.....
We just keep on beating a dead horse....over and over and over.......

[Major Matt Lewis]

Well,

I took Wife A Claus out tonight to Cabela's and had her pick me up a new Marlin 1894.  Of course it is in a gamer caliber, but hey, y'all know me.  Now, a quick review of the rules, prior to me having my wife make the purchase told me this:

"Marlin 94 & 95's if they retain the same appearance as the originals prior to 1899, and as long as they are chambered in approved calibers/cartridges and safe in operation." 

The source is http://www.ncows.org/Approved.htm

Now that being said, the front site is hooded and there is a ramp on the front site also.  Now, I know that the hood is removable and not really concerned about that either way, but what of the ramp?