Author Topic: Historical question about cap and ball  (Read 31808 times)

Offline Trailrider

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2016, 12:06:35 PM »
Interesting stuff. I'm usually unsure of what to believe, as the newspapers of the day (and today) tended to sensationalize their stories with dramatic flair to sell more. If one got killed, it easily turned into four, etc etc. I forgot where I read it but there was a newspaper article from when there was a shootout and before dying one of the men had an awesome quote, apparently staying cool as a cucumber. Something to the extent of avenge me, make a posse and hunt the whole gang down, take care of my wife, etc....

Its possible people said that kind of thing, sure, but I highly doubt it was that common. That is interesting about John W. Hardin and the 1860. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

So for those who carried cap and ball revolvers in the late 1860s whether  farmer or outlaw/lawman/gunfighter/vigilante/bounty hunter, how would you carry extra ammunition? You have your holster, maybe a cap pouch, but loose powder and balls, or paper cartridges? I've never read anything on that. If on horseback, a Colt should have 5 shots typically, Remington being a wee bit safer with hammer notches that really work but things do get jolted around, caps could come loose, accidental discharge, etc.

Also, how did people keep their powder dry? It would seem that a leather bag can only do so much and once again I haven't read anything on flasks being carried for revolvers.

Paper cartridges and percussion caps were the most likely way to carry extra ammo. However, most folks probably didn't think it necessary to carry a whole lot more than was in the cylinder...law men, gunfighters, and cavalry being the exception. Paper cartridges with ball or conical bullet were packaged together. Caps were usually carried in a CW cap pouch with the wool liner.
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Offline hellgate

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2016, 12:39:24 PM »
A fair number of the paper revolver cartridge boxes had 6 rounds and 7 percussion caps included.  Some of them were pretty under powered. The last label on a box of paper cartridges I saw had only 18grs of Hazard powder for a 44 cal revolver. The bullets were pretty pointy. I believe a lot of victims had time to say their last words after being hit by bullets that were slow and dirty. Unless killed instantly many had time to linger & die two or 3 days later of infection but not before expressing their last wishes to their companions and to relay such to their family. It is pure Hollywood to show the bad guy launched backwards off his feet when shot by a Navy Colt. Most real victims probably just slumped forward.
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Offline Flatlander55

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2016, 02:04:47 PM »
First, my apologies for not checking everything, I really didn't mean to be rude. I do however feel that each day more is learned about the period. Such is the case with the picture of Billy The Kid that turned out to be authentic after being shunned by so many people stating it would NEVER be possible to have been him, but with the appropriate researchers it sure turned out to be real. This is how history stays alive and furthers overall knowledge of how people once lived day to day in a time we have a hard time fathoming.

As to being shot, I become immediately confused. Reports show that bad guys often die "instantly" from a direct hit to the heart from an outrageous distance away from a quick drawing sheriff, while the "good guys" take a while, put up a good fight, but pass on after letting their totally loyal partner know their wishes. Anybody who has ever been in real life ground combat or gunfights will probably tell you that no, 90+% of the time people do not pass away instantly from a gunshot wound, and no, equal chances are that the wounded do not have some heroic message to pass on. I am sure somebody will be upset at me with but let's be honest here about how things happen in the real world.

It is possible for the bad guys to all die instantly before hitting the ground with perfect heart shots while the Deputy made it a few days from sheer determination and grit but no way no how did that happen nearly every time like the papers, books, and movies would have you believe.

The extracted bullet but dying from infection makes a ton of sense, and still does today. It's just the things like when Billy The Kid shot his two guards, his second kill supposidly said that he was killed two before being hit with two simultaneous shotgun bursts. In a life and death situation, would you wait for a mans final sentence? Nether would I.

I honestly feel that cap and ball pistols are easily as lethal as cartridge pistols, as I am sure most here do. To further my own understanding, how often did cap jams happen back then while the piece was actually needed? We are fortunate to have cap choices today but back then it couldn't have been as simple as today, especially out West. Once again, sorry if I ruffled feathers but I do feel that legends are often just that, legends.


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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #23 on: Today at 06:27:19 PM »

Offline Flatlander55

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2016, 02:29:12 PM »
And maybe I have a foil hat but the events of Butch Cassidy is in my mind the second greatest truth based story of the era, only surpassed by the Andrews Railroad Raid. Did Butch and The Sundance Kid really get killed in Bolivia, or did they make it? Who knows, but it sure does furnish great conversations and spark imagination.

Offline Bishop Creek

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2016, 03:06:37 PM »
In over 45 years of reading historical first hand accounts of life in the Old West, I have never seen a reference to a cap jam in a revolver, but have seen the phrase "His pistol snapped" meaning the cap didn't fire. Of course the phrase "Pop a cap" on someone, meaning to shoot them, came from the Civil War era.

Offline Lefty Dude

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2016, 03:39:33 PM »
The hammer springs in the C&B revolvers were very stout. Most could not be cocked one handed. Thus the caps stayed on the cones.       
I recently bought a Centaure Belgium Colt made in 1960. It is as close to an original 1860 Colt as one can be. The hammer spring is very stiff and is built like a truck spring. There is no way a Cap can come off with back pressure from firing.


Offline Flatlander55

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2016, 07:04:10 PM »
That makes sense, but since I'm not sure of cap size availability of the day and with the same issues of supply flow out west, paired with only stock nipples, it at least makes me wonder. Same thing with chainfires, I have never read about them except in current times but as we all know that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I chuckled at the pop a cap referance, it constantly amazes me how many phraises from yesteryear are still used.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2016, 07:57:52 PM »
The hammer springs in the C&B revolvers were very stout. Most could not be cocked one handed...


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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2016, 10:01:48 PM »
What we see and use today, are not the same as those in use in those halcyon days of yesteryear.  I'll use Colt as an example.  Colt
caps really were waterproof.  One of their (Colts) sales gimmicks was to drop a loaded capped pistol in a water source at the beginning of the presentation.  At the end of the presentation, the gun was fired.  Once stuck on the gun, those "old timey" caps, stayed on the gun.

The guns weren't used the same as we do either.  "Speed" shooting, beyond one or two rounds was unheard of, except for the "trick"
shooters in Wild West shows.  Most antique guns we see today were fired less than 50 rounds in their entire lifetime.  We fire 50 rounds
every match.  As mentioned, the original guns of the time period used incredibly heavy springs.  Spring technology sucked and the
old cap material took a pretty good whack.

There was little if any "reloading."  If an individual were in an occupation that potentially required more than 6 rounds, the individual carried multiple guns.  When one ran dry, it was dropped and another gun pulled.  The guns were as reliable as circumstances required.
They bore absolutely no resemblance to what we require them to do in a CAS match.

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Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2016, 02:02:10 AM »
+What Coffinmaker said!
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Offline Flatlander55

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2016, 06:58:46 AM »
Never thought of it that way, especially the honest to goodness waterproof caps. It seems the vast majority of cap and ball pistols are left in their original form, but some, mostly .44 colts were cut down to belly guns. Were other modifications to cap pistols somewhat typical of the day? I've read about "gunsmith specials" in the West, and the validity of a .31 and .36 pocket revolvers or derringers in saloons and the like. At the same time, many of the surviving Colt SAA's of the mid 1870's seem to be of the 7.5" flavor. I would think many of the honest workers whether it be miners, farmers, lumber workers, etc would do as others suggest and simply buy surplus Colts or Remington's. Still, outside of mythology I am curious of modifcations.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2016, 08:53:06 AM »
If you prowl around in the written accounts of those halcyon days of yesteryear, things were kept pretty simple.  Most guns were left/kept in their original configuration.  The 7 1/2 inch and 8 inch barrels were the most common/manufactured guns.  The vast majority spent
original ownership wrapped in oil cloth and stuffed in a saddle bag or bureau drawer.

Modifications sometimes called "Gunsmith Specials" were not all that common.  There were a smattering of guns cut down to be "belly
Guns" but I wouldn't call them common.  There were as many .36 ('51 Navy - '61 Navy) cut down for concealed carry as there were '44s.
The most prolific "Gunsmith Specials" were cartridge conversions.  It was considerably cheaper to have a Cap Gun converted to cartridge
than it was to buy "new" and right up to the turn of the century many folks actually preferred loose ammunition.  Either were distrustful
of "newfangled" cartridges, or couldn't afford "store boughts." 

Drop by the "History" section of your local Library or Barnes and Noble.  There is a ton of information available.  Or, just go with John Wayne.  He used Colt 1873 pistols and Winchester '92 rifles to portray 1867.  Worked for the Duke dontcha know.

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Offline hellgate

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2016, 09:41:24 AM »
One famous cap jam/misfire I remember reading about was when Wild Bill Hickock got jumped by several soldiers in a bar, one of them got a revolver out and managed to get it aimed at or in Bill's ear. The gun misfired and Bill was able to get one of his out during the scuffle and shoot one of the soldiers trying to pin him. That broke up the fight and the misfire almost broke up Bill's path to fame.
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Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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Offline pony express

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2016, 06:52:19 PM »
Hopefully not too much thread drift, BUT, I suppose the 2 ton truck springs and waterproof cap that stay in one piece on the gun, were the reason that the smaller frame Colt C&B, like the 1862 and Pocket Navy actually worked, unlike the usual results today?

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2016, 09:49:38 AM »
Hello all, when roughly did most cap and ball pistols become replaced with metallic cartridge guns? It seems that while the 1873 Colt came out that year, there would be no way possible that suddenly every gunslinger, outlaw, and lawman had one. I get cartridge conversions of Colt open tops and Remington's were available but the quantity also seems lacking.

It is hard to find outlaws/gunfighters that used cap and ball pistols exclusively, not the Peacemaker, even if they were killed in the 1860s or before that gun was introduced. Mass production is great but if every single other commodity took years to travel westward, guns, even though critical tools, should have as well. I have the feeling dime novels and Hollywood had a lot to do with it. Somehow metallic cartridges for pistols and lever actions are outrageously romantic. What say you?




in the European continent, cap and ball revolvers were quickly replaced in the 1860´s, by the Lefaucheux system revolvers, and later, by conversion and  rimfire revolvers, so around  the end of the 1860´s cap an balls were out of fashion in Europe and regarded as obsolete in most armies.

the British were making very efective metal cartridge center fire revolvers since the 1867´s, from timid beginnings with rimfire revolvers. They had already adopted a centerfire metallic cartridge for their service rifle in 1866, and soon later in that country Tranter and Adams patented in 1868  both centerfire revolvers, as well as Webley one year before with his Bulldog which became very popular outside the USA, specially, the later.

Many of these revolvers, specially cheaper copies of Belgium and british origin reached the USA market, and it is supposed to have become very popular in the East cities, and among inmigrants heading to the west, who, in many cases, were poor people who could only afford Army surplus firearms and the mentioned belgium revolvers.

it the Post Civil War years,  the USA was a devastated nation, with a pletora of surplus firearms, and probably there was not much room for new guns and technology  in the market   until the 1870´s , for lack of internal demand after such horrible conflict,  when the country could afford new weaponry for the US army, later  involved in the indian wars, and for a growing market in the West, once the routes for migration were opened and the Iron horse  made distances shorter.

so it is obvious that not all guns in the West were COLTS or Smiths, who didnt developed efective metallic cartridge revolvers until very late, when that technology was already popular in other countries by main manufacturers.

in my opinion, the change towards a metallic cartridge in the West took place quickly, as soon as the US economy recovered from the Civil War and the huge demand for new guns started with the expansion to the West.  Probably in the middle 1870's.

After all, outside the USA, the metallic  centerfire cartridge was already firmly stablished  since  1866.





Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2016, 10:02:16 AM »
Very astute observation   ;D

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Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2016, 10:36:17 AM »
Another European perspective: in the Franco-Prussian War 1870/71 France was low on weaponry in general.
To overcome this among others the USA sold readily available Civil War and Post-CW Surplus rifles and revolvers to France.
Even today you will find like Remington New Model 1863 Armies and its conversions with French proof marks from these imports.
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Offline Blair

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2016, 02:45:03 PM »
Transformation to cartridge in Europe using the concept of a bored through cylinder pre dates Rollin Whites Patent by a few years.
Rollin White was able to secure Patent rights here in the US. This allowed him to collect $ 0.25 royalties per firearm using his Patent. (Even from S&W)
When his Patent came up for renewal in 1867/8, the US Patent Office refused to allow it.
This left most US Manufactures scrambling to play catch up. And a US Ordnance Dept. with lots of firearms they wanted converted by anyone with a good reliable conversion design.
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Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2016, 11:32:50 PM »
And somehow Europeans suddenly switched over in one felled swoop?  ::)  BS. I'm sure it was a gradual transition as well and perhaps even slower as they weren't conquering any frontiers full of hostile indigenous peoples within the boundaries of Europe then.

Offline St. George

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Re: Historical question about cap and ball
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2016, 11:57:30 AM »
No, but their armies were out colonizing.

Belgium to the Congo, The Germans to Africa, the French in South America, Asia, the islands and in Africa, the Brits had 'Little Wars' to fight - and so on and so forth.

'We' weren't colonizing in 'that' sense, but 'our' Army was equally busy keeping a lid on hostiles, opening the way for settlers - all these military activities slip under the radar, because 'at that time' - what the military did, was what the military did - unless they suffered a defeat.

Civilians on both sides of the waters just didn't care.

'Look' at the advancements in weaponry post-Civil War - as far as the world's militaries were concerned, the American Civil War was interesting, and class notes were taken, because it was a live-fire weapons demonstration (as are 'all' wars, when one isn't a participant) and a number of new weapons came about as a result - as did ammunition and tactics.

That war changed forever the way 'we' would fight, supply and handle wounded and their transportation - and 'everyone' took note...

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