Boiling brass... did I ruin it?

[TheHappyGunner]

Hello, all

I own and shoot a Uberti 1873 rifle in .44 WCF. My first 15 shots were with Swiss blackpowder... cool, but irrelevant to my issue. When I retrieved the brass, I noticed that the inside of the brass was pretty fouled. I threw all 15 cases in my brass tumbler with walnut media overnight. When I got them out this morning, the fouling was still present with a nice coating of walnut dust.

Frustrated, I did a little research and found that some blackpowder shooters boil their brass with soapy water. I put some water in a pan, set the stove top on "9", and waited until it got to a rolling boil. I threw the brass in for about 15 minutes, stirring occasionally.

When I removed the brass, it was a tad darker (like old brass) with some spots that are almost a light bluish color. I'm assuming these are the spots that were touching the bottom of the pan.

Did I affect the anneal? I have no idea how hot the pan got.. but the discolor end brass is a tad concerning. It's minor, and only slight discoloration on about half of the cases.

I know that even with a case full of black powder, the .44 WCF is a relatively low pressure round, but at the same time the 1873 Winchester isn't a "robust" action... any idea on what to do here?

[wildman1]

After you have shot BP you should rinse the brass using warm water and dish soap. Just a squirt in a gallon of water. Let it dry. Wait until you have a decent sized load of brass before you tumble it. No you didn't hurt that brass by boiling it. As far as a 73 being a robust action they do make them in a 44mag which is a lot more robust than a 44/40. Your best bet for tumbling brass is to use SS pins, Dawn dish soap Lemi-shine and water, it will give you much better results than dry tumbling. wM1

[TheHappyGunner]

That's great cleaning advice for next time.. thanks!

But I'm worried about the strength of the brass where it was in contact with the HOT metal at the bottom of the pan. I know the water didn't hurt the metal, but I'm not so sure about the contact points. As I said before, they may have only sat still in one spot for at most five minutes at a time. They were stirred, and were only in for about 15 minutes total.

I keep trying to post a picture, but I get an "error" message every time I make an attempt.

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[mehavey]

The inside bottom metal of the pan never gets hotter than the boiling point of water (212°)
Not-to-worry...  Bang away. 

[Good Troy]

The inside bottom metal of the pan never gets hotter than the boiling point of water (212°)

With all due respect, a difference in temperature is what drives heat transfer.  For the heat to transfer from the pan to the water, the temperature of the pan must be greater than the water temperature.  However, I doubt it will get hot enough to anneal the brass, as long as the water wasn't boiled out of the pan.  If I'm not mistaken annealing temps for brass are over 400 F.

The conservative thing to do would be to err to caution and discard the brass....of course, that is easy for me to say, as it isn't mine, and I have over 500 rounds of 44-40 nickel plated brass!

[mehavey]

No, the temperature of the water and the temperature of the metal are identical at the interface: 212°F
The additional heat (energy) coming through the metal is transferred to the water -- which boils/produces
steam as its energy-release mechanism.  Under normal atmospheric pressures at the water surface (unlike
a sealed pressure-cooker) both water & steam are at that same 212°F

More heat?  Boils faster/releases more energy as more steam -- at 212°F

The brass is fine.

[Professor Marvel]

With all due respect, a difference in temperature is what drives heat transfer.  For the heat to transfer from the pan to the water, the temperature of the pan must be greater than the water temperature.  However, I doubt it will get hot enough to anneal the brass, as long as the water wasn't boiled out of the pan.  If I'm not mistaken annealing temps for brass are over 400 F.

The conservative thing to do would be to err to caution and discard the brass....of course, that is easy for me to say, as it isn't mine, and I have over 500 rounds of 44-40 nickel plated brass!

This topic has had physicists arguing over hair-splitting details for years - think Leonard-and-Sheldon on TV's "Big Bang Theory" .

However, the real-world basics are simple: stainless and iron are notoriously poor heat conductors, which is why they make for excellent cooking utensils -  the slow-ish transfer means a widely-spread almost uniform heat across the bottom of the pot. Add to the physics of water-boiling-in-a-vessel this means that the pot is the same temp as the water. I don't think the pot will get ever to 215. this is how the ancient trick of boiling water in a box of paper can work. Thus even if the brass touches the pot metal, it will never reach annealing temperature.

As an ancient mariner engineer,  at a later time I will totter over to the stove with my infrared HF thermometer and see what I can measure.

yhs
prof marvel


OOPS Mehavey beat me to it

[mehavey]

Don'cha jus' love experimental physics ? 
Almost as good as rocket science (i.e., shooten guns) 
      

[Professor Marvel]

Aha ! My Good Mehavey, you beat me to it twice!

science and shootin' - what better?
next up - the full-auto C&B revolver :-)

yhs
prof marvel

[Good Troy]

Hmm...Just when I thought that I was being the teacher, I become the student! 

I expected the thermometer to read  about 2 or 3 degrees above boiling.  
I'm trying to get my head around this, because I've been schooled that heat transfer is directly proportional to a difference in temperature.  You have to have a heat sink....ah, duh...it's going into the heat of vaporization.
Gee...and I boil water for a living...  

Maybe I should change my alias to humble(d) Troy!
Or, not-to-proud-that-I-have-to-be-right Troy.

Now Professor and Mehavey, how are you guys on the science of 45-70 black powder loads??? I'm definitely not a teacher in that subject matter!

[Professor Marvel]

Now Professor and Mehavey, how are you guys on the science of 45-70 black powder loads??? I'm definitely not a teacher in that subject matter!

Ah My Good Troy -
not to worry, we are all always learning. But for the 45-70 I will humbly defer to Ranch13 and the other LR rifle shooters here.

yhs
prof marvel

[mehavey]

45-70/Black's not science...  it's pure female art.   

[Good Troy]

Mehavey....

Impressive!

I'm getting 4 to 5" groups at 50 yds with my trapdoor carbine repro! 
Me thinks that I've found the solution.  I applied some science (here I go again think'n logically), and slugged my bore.
It was 459 to 460.  I'm on my way to the range this morning to try some new bullets...The new ones are 460 diam, to replace the 458's.

[wildman1]

The 458's should bump up enough to seal in a 460 bore with the proper powder, wad combo. I have a couple of old trapdoors and can routinely shoot sub 2" groups at 100 yds. If I could see the sites a little better the group size would shrink considerably. wM1

[mehavey]

The secret's in the "S" word:  SOFT.
At BP velocities/accelerations, 30:1 (BHN ~5½-6) works
mahvelously to bump up/seal the bore without slumping.



As to sights... why do y`all think I put that MVA tang sight
on the rolling block above?  ANS: `cause I need all the
itsy-bitsy aperture help I can get at this point. 
 

[wildman1]

There are some other methods to seal the bore (w/o gas checks) when shooting higher velocities with BP and hardcast bullets. You are correct about the sites making a difference. wM1

[jimbobborg]

Next time, bring a mason jar filled with water and drop the brass in there as you go.  As for your brass, it's fine.  You're shooting BP pistol caliber cartridges, not 300 WinMags.

[Delmonico]

I'm surprised at you engineers, there is a hair you forgot to split that even dumb cooks no.  Water boils at 212F (100C) only if the water is pure and also only at sea level.

The boiling point of water drops around 1F for every extra 500 feet above sea level.   

[Professor Marvel]

I'm surprised at you engineers, there is a hair you forgot to split that even dumb cooks no.  Water boils at 212F (100C) only if the water is pure and also only at sea level.

The boiling point of water drops around 1F for every extra 500 feet above sea level.   

Ah My Dear Del -
In fact , I disregarded that since the OP was only worried about exceeding the temperature that would anneal his brass :-)
yhs
prof mvl

[Delmonico]

OK, I just wanted to clarify that since every one kept saying 212F