Excess soot

[cflock]

Howdy all!

I'm having some trouble with my reloads for SASS shooting, and I'm not quite sure what direction to look towards.

My rifle is a Henry Big Boy, .357 Magnum. Pistols are Ruger Old Vaqueros, .357 magnum. My primary bullets have been 125 grain truncated cone. I'm getting the bullets from a club member, he makes bullets for quite a few of the local club members. I don't know exactly what he uses for lube, but they are completely coated with it. I'm using Trail Boss powder, 3.5 grains in my previous batches. Generally using CCI primers, though I've used Winchester when I couldn't get CCI. (Standard primers, not magnum). I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, and giving what seems to be the strongest crimp I can make.

As the title says, my problem is with soot. My cases come out of the rifle covered in soot. On its own, this wouldn't be a concern, however I'm getting a buildup of soot (and probably a little lube) in the action of the rifle. To the point that it starts to interfere with function of the rifle. The rifle will slowly get harder and harder to work, and eventually gets to the point that it starts getting light primer strikes. At this point, a tear down and soaking will get it back into working order. I generally have to take the bolt out and soak it in solvent for a while. This is a problem that has been getting steadily worse. I'm to the point now that I've started with a freshly cleaned rifle, and within 100 rounds started having trouble with it.

What seems to me to be the most interesting thing, is that the cases coming out of my pistols aren't sooty.

So I don't know where to start looking here.

Thanks!

[Blackfoot]

My first thought is to increase the powder charge.  You are at the minimum recommended charge.  Go up the middle of the recommended range or even a little more.  You need enough pressure in the case to get good case obturation .

Lafitte

[jimbobborg]

Use heavier bullets.  I've had similar problems with light bullets for caliber in .45 Colt and 32-20 using Trail Boss.  

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[cflock]

I have tried moving up to the next size in my autodisk (I believe that was ~3.8 grains). I couldn't tell any difference but maybe it just wasn't enough.

As for heavier bullets, I did get some 158 grain bullets. They seemed to cut down a lot on the soot but I didn't know if that was the weight or the lube. Those were store bought and had lube only in the groove.

Unfortunately my bullet supplier doesn't (or at least so far hasn't) made anything heavier in .357 so I can't do an even comparison.

Is it normal for the rifle to have more soot on the cases than the pistols? Or might it mean that the chamber in this rifle is a bit on the generous side? (Truth be told, this Henry has been a source of trouble for us. Initially it wouldn't feed anything reliably, we sent it back to Henry once and now it feeds a couple styles of .357 good so long as we keep it clean. It still won't really feed .38 special well).

Once again, thanks!

[Pettifogger]

Common problem with "SASS" loads.  Means your charge is so light it is not expanding the case.  Assuming you have a decent crimp on the bullets there are three solutions:

1.  Increase powder charge.
2.  Increase bullet weight.
3.  Ignore it.  (Which is what a LOT of SASS shooters do.)

[jimbobborg]

Worse comes to worse, get a bore snake and use it every other stage.  As for your current powder thrower, Lee makes and adjustable part that replaces the disks, which would work for your set up. 

[Frank V]

Straight wall cases often "soot up" when charges are at or near minimum. The case doesn't expand to fill the chamber & we get some blow back. I've had the same thing happen in the .45 Colt & increased the powder charge a bit & it greatly lessend the problem.
Good luck.

[Sleepy Floyd]

I get lots of soot using trail boss.  Non issue.  I just clean after every match.  When I owned a BigBoy in 45colt shooting factory loads I also had somewhat of a soot issue.  never caused me any issues.  Just cleaned after shooting, like I do with all my guns.

[Will Lynchem]

I agree with Blackfoot. I reload 38 spc / 357s and use Trail Boss with 125 gn TC. According to the IMR load data for a 125 tc you should be using 3.8 gns to 5.2 gns max load. I normally run middle of the road at 4.6 and have never had a problem. Trail Boss as powders go is not a very clean burning powder to begin with.  At 4.6.gns I get a lot of residue but no real soot build up to the point of causing problems.  I do clean my guns after every match. I just tried lowering the powder charge to 3.6 because I read on the forum some folks were going as low as 3.2 gns
even though IMR suggests 3.8 as a minimum. I noticed after the first few the front of my Rugers were covered with soot and my 1873 Uberti carrier was black! I then ran some loads at the top end of the scale at 5.0 to 5.2 and it seems the higher the charge, the cleaner the burn. It was better than the 4.6 I normally use. I don't mind cleaning my guns once a month after a match so to save powder and keep the recoil down, I think I will stick to 4.6.gns for the foreseeable future. Good luck and happy shooting!  Will Lynchem.

[cflock]

I had to quickly load up some ammo for yesterday's shoot over the past week, so I didn't have time to do much experimentation.

I had a hundred of the 158 grain RNFP left, so I loaded those up, then switched to the 125 grain that I've been using for the last year.

I gave the Henry a thorough cleaning, and before the match, it was smooth as I've ever seen it. Halfway through the match (it was being used by two shooters, so we're talking 120 or 140 rounds) it was starting to act up, and inside the action was noticeably dirty.

It didn't get to the point that it was having light primer strikes...

Interestingly, my revolvers are not nearly as dirty as the rifle, and I paid close attention to the brass coming out of the rifle and both my and my father's revolvers. The brass coming out of the Henry is noticeably more sooty.

I am going to try making a test batch of ammo with powder loads ranging from my current load up to a bit below what my reloading manuals suggest for a max. I am also going to try getting some heaving bullets in a TC design (the TC feed much more smoothly in this rifle than RNFP).

I'll post my results back here, but I'm still wondering if others experience a similar phenomenon with the rifle sooting brass more than the pistols. I don't know if this is a function of the design (for example the forcing cone in the pistols causing it to build up more pressure while the bullet is in the case, causing the case to expand and seal better, or that the soot goes out the cylinder gap of the revolver) or if it is a sign that the Henry has an overly large (or perhaps non-circular?) chamber.

Thanks,

Chris

[cpt dan blodgett]

difference between the rifle and revolver may be the pressure stays pretty high in the rifle barrel until the bullet leaves the muzzle, having a longer time to blow soot back past the case mouth.  In the revolver much of that blow back will end up going sideways thru the barrel cylinder gap - just a theory