Cross-draw holsters in the real West

[Oregon Bill]

Seems I've seen a few images of cross-draw rigs being worn in the 19th century, but I cannot say I have ever seen one of a guy wearing two rigs, one on the strong side and one cross-draw. Is this mostly just another CAS fantasy?

[St. George]

Yup...

Just like the shotgun shell slide, and using four weapons and carrying a Bowie Knife.

I use a carved crossdraw holster made by R.T. Frazier, in Pueblo, Colorado - it pre-dates the 1899 cut-off for NCOWS, and has a First generation, 5 1/2", .45 Colt sitting in it - both relics from the Mexican Revolution, that came home just before WWI.

You can see one in Rattenbury's 'Packing Iron' - mis-identified as being built for a faster draw, because it looks like it has a forward cant.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Tascosa Joe]

There is a picture of Robert B. Sutton, an early 20th century Texas Ranger, in "The Sutton-Taylor Feud" by Robert C. Sutton with 2 SA Colts one strong side and one cross draw.

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[Tsalagidave]

The few references to people carrying the proverbial "2-gun rig" that I came across are all from the black powder "cap & ball" era and even those accounts are limited. Horace Bell recounts the practice during the 1850s in Southern California but most other accounts I've found are with  military personnel. Perhaps the occasional lawman or desperado did it when anticipating trouble but for the most part, your typical Western society bore more resemblance to and episode of "Little House on the Prairie" than it did to a scene from "Tombstone".

The strong presence of rifles, shotguns and pistols in the hands of the average law-abiding citizen seemed to reinforce the old adage that "an armed society is a polite society".

-Dave

[Mean Bob Mean]

Hickock wore them like that but "twist" drew his revolvers.  My understanding was that you wore them backward or had them built canted as they carried better on horseback.  This is likely far more important when carrying long barreled revolvers. 

[harleydavis]

The practice of butt forward really comes from the adaptation of military scabbards into the civilian world. There is a photo of Hickok in 1867 wearing what may be a flap style scabbard and it appears that the flap is folded back, tucked into the belt behind the scabbard (it is difficult to ascertain with full certainty due to the graininess of the photo). In that same photo, Bill is wearing only one Navy revolver worn on his right side. Even tho Bill was noted to employ the reverse plainsman's twist draw, in this particular photo it does appear the revolver is in a position for a cross draw. It would be rather odd to have a military holster made to be worn on the left side since issue side carry was on the right side. Perhaps a custom made rig of some sort.

 A photo of Bill about the time of the Tutt shooting, shows another odd looking holster on his right side, almost looks like it has a straight top, again, hard to see exactly. The pistols are worn butts forward but so high on his waist that one would have to think that he would have to employ a cross draw to get them into battery. He was known to do that when sitting down.

Two pistoled shootists were not that common, even in the day of cap n ball with notable exceptions. Even less common with cartridge revolvers. Damn things are heavy after a time. IMHO, wearing revolvers in 2 right side holsters, while not PEC, was possibly done but apparently not photographed a great deal. Fellers probably used what they could get there hands on that fit their needs at the moment.

[Delmonico]

Most so called cross draw I've seen in historical pictures were one gun, in a regular rig, pulled over to the off side, butt forward. 

This is a very practical way to carry a gun, it's out of your way. 

[Shotgun Franklin]

Usually if you wear a holster on the right side and mount a horse the gun will fall out or at best get in the way. The answer was to pull your holster over to the left side. There are a lot of SASS Shooters trying hard to make it appear that their modern leather gear and highly modified guns were like those carried in the Old West. If you want to carry the type of guns and leather as was used back then it's pretty easy. It seems a bit harder to change the history to fit you.

[Delmonico]

It all boils down to do you want to play a modern game that resembles a Hollywood movie or do you want to be authentic Old West?

Most cowboys would have been lucky to have enough ammo to shoot two stages in a pistol/rifle match, that is even if they had both guns. 

[Mean Bob Mean]

Most so called cross draw I've seen in historical pictures were one gun, in a regular rig, pulled over to the off side, butt forward. 

This is a very practical way to carry a gun, it's out of your way. 

Exactly, I think most of this came from men who spent long hours on horseback.  I carried mine in cross draw when employed as watchman at the mine because as I traversed the property I might be stuck hanging onto something with my right hand and I could get the pistol out with either hand if setup as cross draw. 

[Oregon Bill]

Thanks fellas. Del, your question in the preceding post is exactly the one I ask myself every time I think about this endeavor.
I don't want to re-enact 20th and 21st century fantasies.
I want to re-enact life in the world of my real ancestors, as near as I can to their truth.
I wish someone would re-approach this whole "game, hobby, avocation," whatever, around a SINGLE handgun, a shotgun and a rifle.
And instead of all these goofy speed stages, I'd rather see a move-run-crouch-dive-behind-the-water-trough, be scared stiff and yell stuff at the ornery SOB who's taking pot shots at me kind of a thing.
If it means neither SASS  nor NCOWS, so be it.
Just call me goofy.
Now I'll just quit dreaming and shut up.

[Tsalagidave]

I made an earlier reference to Horace Bell and I encourage those interested in in this thread to hunt down a copy of "Reminiscences of a Ranger". It describes 1850's Southern California and a lot of the wild deeds that occurred there. Some of his precise facts are wrong however and he tends to embellish his tales in the same way that Sam Watkins did with "Company Aytch". That being said, he does a great job with the little observations of this place and time and he had the experience to talk on the matter.

Among other things he mentioned, he talks of men still carrying Colt's revolvers on their saddle pommels; how "drawing from the sleeve" is a better & faster method; along with describing how most gunfights occurred. He doesn't say much on "fast draw" but rather focuses on how an individual with gun already in hand would approach another (often from behind) and shout "draw and defend yourself" before the shooting commenced.

-Dave

[Delmonico]

Thanks fellas. Del, your question in the preceding post is exactly the one I ask myself every time I think about this endeavor.
I don't want to re-enact 20th and 21st century fantasies.
I want to re-enact life in the world of my real ancestors, as near as I can to their truth.
I wish someone would re-approach this whole "game, hobby, avocation," whatever, around a SINGLE handgun, a shotgun and a rifle.
And instead of all these goofy speed stages, I'd rather see a move-run-crouch-dive-behind-the-water-trough, be scared stiff and yell stuff at the ornery SOB who's taking pot shots at me kind of a thing.
If it means neither SASS  nor NCOWS, so be it.
Just call me goofy.
Now I'll just quit dreaming and shut up.

Bill the actual gunfight was really very rare.  Most involved someone getting the drop on someone and shooting them. 

To really reenact a lot of our ancestors maybe a plow, a disc and a draft horse as well as a hoe and a bunch of non-hybrid corn would come closer. 

The closest to what you want is the GAF shoots out to Camp Pitspiter near Sargent Nebraska every spring.  A rifle and six shooter like used in CAS will let you shoot Civilian Scout class just fine.   No need for a shot gun, walking scirmish matches in the canyons, shoot till they are all knocked down, no miss and add a few seconds, you have to knock them down to count, a ding doesn't even count for much.

I here the grub tends to be good there also.   

[Oregon Bill]

Del, trouble with Sargent, Nebraska, is that it is 1,386 miles and a 21-hour drive from my house here in Oregon. Otherwise, it sounds like the cat's P.J.s ...
 

Dave, I'll have to look up the Horace Bell memoir. And I am glad to hear your comment on Watkins' "Company Aytch" as my copy arrived just yesterday.

[Shotgun Franklin]

As far as the number of guns used in CAS, it has to do with how much you get to shoot. I could walk up to a target, fire 5 rounds and be through. How many of ya'll would drive an hour and pay to do that? BTW, not everyone in the Old West was a Cowboy, many outlaws and Lawmen did carry multiple guns. Dallas Stoudenmire, Will Bill, Jesse James and Commodore Perry Owens all carried more than one gun and they were not the only ones.

[Oregon Bill]

Shotgun, I see your point, at least for argument purposes.

 

Actually, if were portraying one of Quantrill's boys I need a minimum of four of Colt's revolvers on my person, and six would be a darned sight better! Long guns? We don't need no stinkin' long guns ...

[Delmonico]

Bill, I'll put the other side of the argument, why do you need more than two guns to shoot a lot, GAF has a Class for rifle only called Militiaman that uses only the rifle or the one for the really good ones called Staff Officer where you shoot just the pistol, some have done that one, Larry Little aka Gripmaker has and done well, but the man knows how to shoot something  out a little bit beyond dang close with a hand gun.

Couple videos Doug Strong took last year, may make you consider the trip, bring someone along, split the driving and gas. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1VrbmYd5Ps[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmI0s49qP2c[/youtube]

You make the trip sometime and I'll make sure the cook gives you double rations on dessert. 

[bowiemaker]

That looks like a lot of fun. I would be all in if it wasn't a 2000 mile round trip for me.

[pony express]

Oregon Bill, and Bowiemaker, since it's a long trip, this may be the year to do it! Shooting Friday-Monday, Pitspitr is putting on a Zoot Shoot match after the regular Grand Muster. So Friday it's "Expansion Era", 1900-1916 weapons, Sat-Sun morning regular GAF, cartridge firing pre-1900, and Sun afternoon-Mon, up through 1950. Get a lot of shooting for your drive! And if you don't have(or don't want to haul around) all that arsenal, well, you can shoot them all with your regular CAS rifle and one pistol.

[Delmonico]

Come out and then go home and work on a group to do it back there, everyone says it looks like fun but too far away, a shoot like that doesn't have to be that far away.