Wanting to shoot my Spencer, Best course of action?

[fireman]

Hey All,
I joined a few months ago when I bought my Spencer and finally had it to a gun smith to examine it to make shore it was safe to shoot. He gave me the green light and said he was surprised that the gun was in as good of shape as it is given it's age and being in a war. With that said I now want to shoot it more than ever. I have been shooting all types of firearms for 35 years but have zero experience with reloading. I have looked through the entire SSS forum and have found numerous threads about making your own rim fire rounds, converting to center fire and making center fire rounds etc. I have also seen the cases that use a .22 shell or blank.

I guess the bottom line and what I am asking is, what is the easiest way to be able to shoot my gun? I understand that either way it's going to be somewhat costly but I'm willing to spend the money. I don't mind converting it to center fire as long as I don't have to do any modifications to the original parts. I also don't mind firing it single fire if that's what I have to do. I'm also not looking to put hundreds of rounds through it. When I go to the range with some of my other guns, I just want to be able to take out the Spencer and put a few rounds through it and be able to think about what it was like to be the soldier it was issued to in Company D of the 12th. Illinois Cavalry back in 1864!

Any help and guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Two Flints]

Fireman,

You might want to sit back and just go through the SORI Thread posted on SSS.  It has just about all the info you will need to shoot that Spencer   If you still have unanswered questions . . . post them for additional help.

Two Flints

[fireman]

I have read through the majority of the SORI threads. I don't really want to get into reloading myself. I guess I should have been more specific in my original question. It seems the best way to go is to convert to center fire. Now the question is who's is better, Buffalo Arms or S&S? I have read that the S&S has the spring to keep the firing pin back away from the action. The other question is who are vendors that sell center fire 56-56 ammo? Another question I have seen mentioned about is can I shoot 56-52 or 56-50 in this gun with the center fire block installed. Again I have read through the posts but its hard to come to conclussions on some of the info

[Advertising]

[Two Flints]

I have installed both conversion blocks (Buffalo Arms and S & S) in my Spencers . . . either one may need some modification, slight sanding, etc.  I think I'm partial to the Buffalo Arms block for no particular reason

If you read through the SORI Thread and still need more info, try a specific question and do a search for the answer on SSS.  We have a pretty good SEARCH ENGINE available on SSS


http://tenxammo.com/files/Shooter_Direct_Pricing_01132012.pdf  Rather expensive, but if you don't want to get into loading . . .  bite the bullet, I guess (no pun intended).

With regard to your 56-52 question, the Spencer .56-52, and the Springfield .56-50,  differed only in the degree of crimp. The .56-50 has a greater crimp and both fire 350 grain .512-inch (13.0 mm) bullets.  I don't believe the 56-52 is made commercially.

Two Flints

[ndnchf]

Fireman - you have been provided good advice from Two Flints.  The only comment I have is that buying ready to shoot ammunition from any source can be problematical if you don't know which bullet and cartridge overall length your particular carbine likes.  If loading one at a time, its not an issue.  But Spencers can be very fussy about what will feed and cycle through the magazine. This is not so much of an issue with the Armisport replica, but with originals it can be different from one to another.  The best way to determine what works best in your carbine is to make up some dummy rounds with different bullets and overall lengths.  I went through this process recently for my rifle and documented it here on SSS.     

[Snakeeater]

Now the question is who's is better, Buffalo Arms or S&S? I have read that the S&S has the spring to keep the firing pin back away from the action.

It is no long a question of who has the better upper center-fire block design because the design of the new S&S center-fire block is virtually identical to the upper block made for Buffalo Arms, except for the name stamped on the side. Other than a price difference of about $9, which is probably the cost increase for the color case-hardening of the Buffalo Arms product over the blued S&S product, the internal designs are the same. The blocks utilize a internal kinetic transfer system similar to the Colt M1911, the hammer striking a transfer bar that in turn strikes a floating firing pin riding inside a coiled compression spring (like is shown upper left). The Liege maker, Falisse & Trappman, converted many rimfire breech blocks over to center-fire in 1873, and these are the style found among the Belgian-made Spencers by that maker (shown third from left). The former S&S design (shown lower right) that people had so much trouble using also had a hardening problem. Oh, the transfer bar was hardened, but hardening steel also makes it brittle especially if it is not heat-treated and tempered after being hardened to reduce the brittleness. The transfer bar in my S&S block shattered into five pieces while firing my Spencer, but S&S replaced the part free of charge. They even installed it for free!

[Snakeeater]

I have read through the majority of the SORI threads. I don't really want to get into reloading myself. I guess I should have been more specific in my original question. It seems the best way to go is to convert to center fire. The other question is who are vendors that sell center fire 56-56 ammo? Another question I have seen mentioned about is can I shoot 56-52 or 56-50 in this gun with the center fire block installed. Again I have read through the posts but its hard to come to conclussions on some of the info

Fireman -- I am not aware of any vendor who is making .56-.56 ammo commercially. Even the vendors who offer .56-.50 are specialty manufacturers in small quantities using black powder or synthetic BP substitute. Indeed, one of the reasons why you can buy an original Spencer rifle or carbine through the mail without going through an FFL dealer is because the original rim-fire ammo is not commercially available (i.e. available from Sears, Walmart, or your local Ace hardware store, etc). If the ammo was "commercially-available", the Spencer would be classed by BATF&E as a "modern firearm", and have the same restrictions applied to them as any modern center-fire arm. In each case when I have bought a Spencer online or from a dealer out-of-state, I have sent a copy of my FFL (C&R) license for the firearms transfer simply because of their classification. Just because someone says a gun is exempt because of being made before 1898 and is therefore an "antique" does not make it exempt, especially when the definition of an "antique firearm" reads as follows:

"Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

This may explain why we reload.

[fireman]

I picked up some original 56-56 ammo for the spencer! Gonna try and shoot some of it save the others for models so I can either make some myself or have some made for me. Can't wait till we have a real nice day so I can head to the range!!!

[Two Flints]

Fireman,

I would be concerned about shooting original Spencer ammo   I'd feel more comfortable if you said you were going to get a conversion block to try some "modern" cartridges.  There's no guarantee that the original Spencer ammo you have will even load, fire and extract from your Spencer . . . give it more thought for your own safety.

Two Flints

[fireman]

I'm planning on bringing to my gun smith so he can inspect it before I shoot it. It was in the box and stored in-doors. I won't shoot it unless he approves of it.

[Two Flints]

Fireman,

I was more concerned with the original Spencer ammo as a possible danger

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

Fireman,

I would like to plead with you to NOT fire the box of original ammo you have. 

No one will ever again make rimfire cartridges for a Spencer so if you are in position of a box of rimfire ammo I would say you have something very valuable, at least to us Spencer lovers. 

Thanks Pvt Greg

[fireman]

Hey Greg,
I don't have a full box. I have 14 original rounds and don't have the original box. I am picking them up today and will post pictures later. I definitely am not shooting them all. My big problem is I really want to shoot the Spencer but because I personally have no way to make my own bullets, and no one that I can find sells any ammo ready to fire leaves me in a bind. I read this entire forum and although there is a ton of information, unless your own all your own equipment and are versed in reloading, your out of luck. There are a lot of threads about it but no real definitive guide. I was going to get into reloading but now that the stock of ammunition seems to be filling back up at the local shops not sure about going that route. I've also tried to find someone local to teach me but have had no luck. It likes learning to play golf. Everyone wants you to come out and play but doesn't want to take the time to teach you. I know it sounds like i'm making excuses but it if I was retired, didn't have kids, a house etc. I would probably have to the time to somehow make it happen.

[tn_shooter]

A little off topic…

There was a box of 25 original Spencer rim fire rounds for sale at the Franklin, TN CW show in early December.  Price:  $250. 

Not sure of their provenance because I couldn't see the box lid for manufacturer and caliber info.  Rounds were in the bottom of the box which was open and sitting in the lid - rounds were in 5 rows of 5 alternating base up, bullet, etc.  A couple of the visible bases were "H" stamped, the others were not.  Strange thing was that two cartridges looked like they might have been struck by the firing "pin", one might have even been struck twice as it had two strike marks around the rim. A bit fishy?

The gentleman manning the booth was engaged in discussions with a a couple people and I was pressed for time so I couldn't handle the box/rounds.

[ndnchf]

The odds are that original rimfire rounds will have dead priming compound and will not fire.  While black powder will last indefinately if kept dry, the old priming compounds deteriorate.  That's why it is not uncommon to see original rounds with firing pin dents.

[fireman]

Picked up the bullets today. No firing pin dents. They all have the "U" manufacturers mark. As you can see by the pictures they look in remarkable condition for around 150 years old or so. These came from the estate of the last surviving family member of a 2nd. LT Cavalry Officer. They were put away after the war and handed down from generation to generation. They last survivor was going into a nursing home and these came from the estate along with other Civil War items.

[Blair]

Fireman,

Shoot then up big guy! (if they go?)

I have to say it will probably some of the most expensive ammo you will probably ever shoot within you life.
But, who am I to tell you what to do or not to do... it is your gun and ammo. Enjoy!
My best,
Blair

[ndnchf]

Yep, that looks like very old Union Metaliic Cartridge co. .56-56. I will be VERY surprised if it fires.

Have you considered buying a few reloadable cases from Dixie Gun Works?  They don't take any reloading equipment to load.  They use a .22 short (with bullet and powder pulled) as a primer, some black powder and load with round ball, no tools needed.  It won't be very accurate and you"ll need to load one at a time, but it will go boom and be safe to shoot that way.

[Snakeeater]

Curiously, there seem to be several more .56-56 U.M.C. made cartridges available at around $35 a piece so if Fireman can afford to shoot up $500 worth of ammo, it's his money to burn.

Erratta: The Union Metallic Cartridge Company cartridges stamped "U" were made between 1887 and 1911. In the 1902 Sears & Roebuck catalogue you could buy a hundred rounds of .56-56 Spencer cartridges for $1.90 or for just a little more than half the price of a Spencer carbine (with 25 rounds of ammo) for $3.65.

[fireman]

Been doing more research about the re-loadable cartridges from Dixie Gun Works. If all thats involved is inserting the .22 blank and adding powder and round ball, then I think I am going to go that route. Don't mind firing it single shot and not looking to shoot further  than 25 yards. If anyone has actually loaded and used these I would like to here exactly whats involved. I would really like to keep my original ammo intact and part of Spencer collection.