Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

I dont' have one and don't plan on having any of my rifles internally modified. But, are short stroked rifles NCOWS legal? and if they are isn't this considered an internal modification?

I'm not asking who in NCOWS has one, the question is just on the lagallity of it.

OCB

[Trap]

  OCB
  I don't believe this has come up before the Congress as yet. (correct me if I"m wrong) , It may be an issue that should be ruled on. jt

[Major Matt Lewis]

Well,

I have one and feel no shame admitting it.    Of course it had to pass the "Trap" inspection first and it did.  I almost even got him to try it..... LOL!

They are not "illegal" so by default they are legal.  The question to ask is "should an action job on a pistol be illegal?"  If so, than the short-stroke should be too.  If not, than it should be allowed.  

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[Books OToole]

I have read a transcript of a letter written by Bat Masterson, where he ordered a Colt and requsted it to be smoothed.

I have never heard of any short stroked rifles in the 19th century.

Books

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
An action job/Tuning a pistol is not the same thing as installing parts in a rifle that is/are not considered original equipement. Short stroking a rifle makes modifications to the internals of a rifle that weren't present or done during the time period we are supposed to represent. JMHO,

OCB

[Major Matt Lewis]

Have we read that current Italian imported rifles throw is longer than the originals 

[Quick Fire]

There is an article in this months SASS Chronicle about external and internal modifications on our firearms and how Tex feels that they violate the Spirit of the Game. Very interesting article.

[Irish Dave]

IMHO, the issue of short-stroked rifles is one that should come before the Congress and be decided. This should be done before significant numbers of NCOWS members spend their money on this only to have them disallowed later, much like the Ruger Bisley Vaquero.

I, for one, do not believe such modifications should be allowed for NCOWS and I personally would also advise against spending the money on this modification until it has been reviewed and decided by the Congress.

1) This cannot, in any way, be construed as an authentic modification. I also agree with OCB, this is not the same as "smoothing" or an "action job" on a revolver. Additionally, the short-stroking of revolver actions should also be prohibited.
2) This is not purely an "internal" modification. If you line up a bunch of rifles and open the actions, you will be able to tell instantly which have been short-stroked. And that's externally visible.
3) Just because SASS has headed down this "gamer" equipment race path does not mean that we should.
4) It is only an "advantage" as long as some folks have them and others do not. Once everybody has a SS rifle, the fields will again be "leveled" and another gimmick will have to be found. And the equipment race is on!! I do not believe an authenticity-based outfit such as NCOWS should embrace this equipment race concept.
5) Those who want to SS a rifle for SASS matches, should, by all means do so if they like, but that rifle should not be allowed in NCOWS. I would submit that pards who have the money to spend on relatively expensive SS mods, probably have the funds for a second rifle.

This is just my humble opinion, but there's my 2 cents worth.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Dave,

Take this as polite as possible...Who are you to tell somebody how to spend their money?  A Cody Conagher SS and action job is $185.  A new Uberti is around $900.  Now to be honest, I have a 1873 Border Rifle, Carbine, 66 Yellowboy and a 60 Henry.  I reckon I may be the exception not the rule.  I can afford basically what I want.  When I want it too, but I KNOW that I am the exception.  So I CAN go out and impulse buy a rifle that's not short-stroked (I don't need to because I have 2 already), but how many other folks can do that?  Why not allow SASS shooters to explore NCOWS without the worry of "Is my gun legal?"  "Can I wear X hat or shirt?"  Do you want this organization to grow?

Mind you, we are talking about a half inch difference on a throw on a lever gun....

Remember folks, at some level, NCOWS is a business.  Buy that I mean that we are asking folks to spend their discretionary time and funds with us.  At the end of the day it does come down to $$$$.  Do we want to constrict our customer base?  Also remember, I will suggest that most folks find SASS and then NCOWS.  (Books, I know you didn't).  So do you want to put up artificial barriers to entry into NCOWS? 

Buy the way, this is a great discussion to have. 

[Major Matt Lewis]

I would like to quote Captain Rum Morgan's post from the SASS Wire where they are having a similar discussion:

"Nothing about this sport as well as most other sports will ever be equal 

EXAMPLE;
Stock pistols, run the gamet from cabela's Uberti millenium to Colt custom shop.
That's a $1,000.00 difference in purchase price.

Stock rifles, run from Winchester 94's or 92 clones to Uberti border deluxe 73's.
That's easily a $600.00 difference.

Action jobs (not short strokes, assuming they are banned) will be everything from kitchen table, to top of the line gunsmith. Again, a huge difference in cost.

Clothes cover everything from yard sale pick-ups to top shelf, brand name western wear. Low cost (functional) gunleather to competition (slick) gun rigs costing many times more.

Talent is everything from the occassional weekend cowboy to the semi-pro vender/shooter or motor home cowboy that runs the circuit by region or even nationally shooting every weekend. Some cowboys even practice so that they can shoot better than their competitors! 

There will always be somebody that will;
out dress you
out practice you
out spend you
OUT SHOOT YOU!!

The whiners are usually the ones that WANT to out shoot you WITHOUT putting in the EFFORT required!

It will STILL be a gun race, clothes race, talent race, etc. etc. etc.... it is naive to think otherwise."


Very well said. 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
I don't think anyone that has replied to this post has whined about anything, I thought we all had a right to express our opinions without them being stepped on. I in no way took Irish Dave's post to suggest that he was telling anybody how to spend their money. What he did say, if I may so humble, was to say that short stroking a rifle is a modification to the original internals of a rifle and not the same as smoothing up the action of a revolver.
I've noticed you've used the argument of turning off new members several times before in other post, so what if it does!!. If prospective new members don't want to play by NCOWS rules there are other shooting venues, it's their choice to join, not mine. I also agree with Dave, that the legallity issue of short stroking rifles is something that needs to come up for a vote at the next congress before it gets out of hand. As far as everything being equal I agree with you, but, I think we are talking about being fair and not taking short cuts to circumvent the spirit of the game.....to use a SASS term.... By the way, I'm glad that you can afford any firearm you desire, so can I, .....what does that have to do with short stroking a rifle? Nothing that I can see.................

OCB

[Lars]

I have no dog in this because I don't and won't own one of the toggle-link rifles. I will stick with Rossi M92s and Marlin M94s.

HOWEVER, I would sure hope that before NCOWS makes any ruling about "short-stroking" that they do a careful comparison of the lever arc angles of numerous originals with those of Itallian copies, in factory condition and shortstroked. What I have seen so far is that the originals generally (how often?) have lever arcs similar to those of short-stroked Itallian copies.

Lars

[Lone Gunman]

Mr Douglas, have I got a deal for you...if you'd just help me scoot this chair out of the way...I've got these new short stroke kits for your Winchester. For less than $200 you'll have the edge you need to beat the snot out of that Fred Zwiffle.

Oh I don't know Mr Haney, that's an awful lot of money for a gadget to make the lever move a little less. How much time could that tiny bit of movement possibly save? I'll bet I could improve my times more by spending that money on practice ammunition.

Why Mr Douglas I'm shocked that you'd have such an obtuse point of view    You know if Fred finds out you're practicing he'll just send Arnold over to root around until you can't find your brass. Well, it's up to you but you know the Zwifles are the next stop on my route...I'm sure Fred understands the logic of lettin' money do the work...I guess you're just destined to be a loser Mr Douglas.

Now wait just a gosh darn minute there Mr Haney, you mean you intended to sell me this contraption and then head straight over to Zwiffles and sell him one too? What happens to my advantage then?

Now Mr Douglas haven't you read the story of Alice in Wonderland?

What does that have to do with anything....have you been eating those mushrooms again?



Certainly not Mr Douglas, I'm referring to the part where the Red Queen explains, "HERE, you see, it takes all the running YOU can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!" With shooting it takes all the gadgets you can buy just to keep even with everyone else who's buying gadgets.

Well that's just ludicrous Mr Haney, why the only ones who benefit from this insane arms race are you and the shysters who manufacture these contraptions.

Why Mr Douglas I'm crushed to hear you say that. It's as if you we're trying to take the very bread from the mouths of my poor orphan children.   



Oh allright I'll buy one of the dadburned things, but will you at least wait until after the next match to tell Zwiffle about 'em?

Absolutely Mr Douglas...but that's going to cost an extra $50 bucks...you know to cover my holding costs. 
 

[Ol Gabe]

"Thus endeth the lesson..."
Anonymous

[Mustang Gregg]

George----
That's GREAT!!!!
I'm still laughin'.
Mustang Gregg

[Major Matt Lewis]

George,

That is great!

Lars,

I was aluding to that earlier and agree.

Bill,

I have used that agrument before because I feel that NCOWS is a great organization (obviously, Life Member 160).  I want to see NCOWS grow and I feel that as with all forms of government, both public and private, NCOWS being private, over regulation retards growth.

I was pointing out that Dave's cavalier solution of just buying a SASS rifle and then turn around and buying an NCOWS rifle is simply cost prohibitive to most folks.  Kind of silly too.  I was also pointing out that I was not making my argument based on my personal financial considerations.  So, my motives here are not really personal.  Most folks fight harder when they have a personal stake in it.  I don't, I will fight this one hard on principle alone.  It's just a plain bad idea and retards growth from your most likely source of new members, SASS.  I personally don't like it when people refer to us in a negative manner, because their perception is just not true.  Silly legislation such as worring about the half inch or so on a lever gun may help earn some of that reputation.  Who is going to get out a messuring tape or a rule to check levers?  Pretty silly.

[Black River Smith]

I agree with Joss House.  I laid out my Cim. 1866 44-40 and placed my original Win73 in 44-40 over the top of it. Lining up lever screws and lower edges of the frames,  the levers fully open are at the same angle.

One thing to consider is the repros are larger in mass to accommodate smokeless powder.

Black River Smith

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
So, what you are saying is if NCOWS makes the short stroke kits illegal we'll lose potential members, and the members that already have them (#?) will keep them, break the rules and cheat, because you don't think other members will look for them??? Well I for one will point it out as will others that I know who do not care for star wars modifications to old timey firearms.
If the extra half inch in the function of the lever is not important in the overall picture to you then why have you brought it up several times in this post? I think it's more relevant to you then you are trying to make out. Again, this is a modifcation to the firearms original function that was never done.
Maybe we should start a class for short stroked rifles?? We could call it the Speedy Gonzales Class, or, the half incher class, or, short strokers have more fun and get there quicker? The next thing you know, we'll be adding batteries to the short stroke kits and lasers, just because NCOWS hasn't declared them Illegal???

OCB

[Lars]

Joss House & Black River Smith,

When this issue has come up on the SASS Wire various times, there always seems to be pictures of Itallian and originall Winchesters 73s showing not only the small difference in lever angle at full open but showing that the poster's orignial Winchester had smaller angle than the Itallian copies.

No more no less to my post. As said before, I don't and won't own a toggle-link rifle.

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

Number 2 Firing....

Bill,

I never suggested that anybody cheat.  I never said that I would cheat, nor did I say I would not shoot an NCOWS match.  As stated, I have some non-short stroked rifles just incase the silly ever does happen.  Just because I don't agree with a rule, I like the organization enough to play by the rules.  I am saying, that no shoot that I ever run will there be a tape measure or a rule to measure a throw on the lever.  I hear tell that there are some NCOWS clubs that even still allow the ever dreaded Ruger Bisley.   

As far as if NCOWS makes short strokes illegal we will lose potential members, I say that is possible.  Because it is setting a precidence and perception of the culture of the organization as a whole.  I say that less government is generally better.  Same goes with rules.  Right now, NCOWS has an issue with perception.  Things like showing NTR on "Cowboys" goes a long way towards helping that perception.  But if we over litigate innocuous issues, such as the short stroke, it does not speak well for us. 

Also, I would like to revist the idea of buying an NCOWS rifle.  This is behavior that is directly contradictary for an organization that built the catagory Working Cowboy as to allow shooters to shoot in lieu of having all 4 guns.  So, if we do not now require shooters to have a rifle, shotgun and two pistols, why would you make new prospective shooters crossing over from SASS to buy a non-short stroked rifle?  Seems to violate the spirit in which Working Cowboy was created.