Anybody use Smokeless loads for Brass Shotshell (MagTech)

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Maybe I missed it in my search...

Anyone out there shooting smokeless powder in brass shotshell (Magtech)... Looking for load data.  I have had problems with loading these... got a lot of "poofs"... I drilled out the primmer apeture and that helped a bunch. Just looking for a smokeless load and shot that will knock down the SG targets.  I see most of the folks use the Holy Black or Pyrodex... I prefer the smokeless... I know...not period correct... but what we do in SASS is also not period correct... guncarts are definately not period correct. Need some good advice for loading the brass shotshell... many thanks in advance.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

While large pistol primers are the cat's meow for BP, smokeless needs a hotter primer.  That is why the 209s were developed. And, that is probably why you are getting "poofs".

The next issue is the larger inside diameter of Magtechs. If you are trying to use plastic wads, they might not seal quickly enough.  You might try a 11 gauge over powder wad under the plastic, or go completely to card & cushion wads?  This is only speculation on my part.  I have only used BP, but have heard of others using fad powders

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

SCdB-

I tried the following- large pistol magnum primers after making the apeture larger that seemed to help... using circle fly nitro cards over the powder (18 grains of Red Dot), and the circle fly wads from BA in 11 gauge... and circle fly over the shot in 11 ga.  Did not get "poofs" with the 18 grains of Red Dot... but where i tested it, there was no targets so I do not know if that will work or not... from my search on this it seems most folks use the holy black or pyrodex.  I may just end up loading the holy black in them... that seems to be the easiest path...LOL  thanks much.

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[Abilene]

Your question has been asked here before.  Do a search on smokeless brass shotshell and you will see several discussions.  From these and others it appears that using heavier cards that seal better is important so the pressure has time to rise before the column starts moving. 

Here is a post from Stoney Mike that I saved from the SASS Wire back in 2001 (I haven't tried this myself)  (Also note that the old Rem-UMC hulls are about the same as the MagTechs):

"Well here goes, These are the loads I've used all season in my 97 and Baikal Mule eared SXS.

I use Remington-Umc all brass hulls. They take a regular rifle/pistol primer. I use CCI Magnum pistol. Never had a light strike or misfife of any kind.

I use Titegroup in my 45Colt pistol and Rifle so it looked and the Hodgdon web site and found a handicap load using Titegroup that looked good.

It took some tweaking to get it right but now I'm set on 22 gr of Titegroup, on top of that an 11,guage, 1/4 overpowder wad from CircleFly wads. Then a half inch fiber cushion wad also from CircleFly. and another 1/4 card wad. This is mainly to take up space in the hull. I them use a Win AA RED wad. A regular white wad will be too long even without the last card and the red would be too short, trust me this is the combiation that works the best for me. I use 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2 shot and then another 1/4 heavy card and a slight

crimp, Just enough to hold the card and cycle good, It doesn't take much.

I have a set of dies for the All brass hulls from CH 40. Somebody out there emailed their address and phone to me , now I lost it. You need a RCBS reloader special #5 or a Rockchucker to use them as they are quite a bit bigger than regular dies.

You need the 1/4, harder card at the end instead of the thin overshot card.

unlike blackpowder you need pressure to get a good burn. I tried the thin over shot card glued in with various things but the primer was blowing the wad befor the powder ignited and the shot and wad barely left the barrel.

If anyone has anymore questions please feel free te email me or post a reply and I'll answer the best I can. As the shooters is Southern Wisconsin can attest. I use these every week.

I hope I covered all the bases,

Best Regards, StoneyMike"

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Abilene-

I also use titegroup for the cowboy pistols and rifle... I will try your loading info for the brass shotshell... I have all the components you speak of except the dies.... i also have a Rockchucker... I see that Buff Arms has dies... your loading sounds simple... not sure about the crimping.... just have to try it... will only be shooting the brass SS from my sidexside.  Will load a few and take to next match and before the match will see how they do on the SG kockdowns... will let you know the result.  Thanks a WHOLE BUNCH Stoney.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

This is my loading kit for Magtechs;

A short piece of plank (2 X 4, about 6 -8 inches long) with a hole drilled for primers to drop through near one end, and a piece of metal screwed down for a firm base at the other end.
   -deprime over the hole with a LEE depriming punch and a plastic faced hammer
   -prime by placing the LP primer on the metal base, set the primer pocket of the shell over it and tap it down with a hollow punch (I use a 4 inch length of copper pipe) with the same hammer.

plastic faced hammer.

4 inch length of 1/2 inch copper pipe.  This has two uses; first as a hollow punch inside the case to tap it down over the new primer, and secondly as a wad punch.  A wooden dowel will also work as a wad punch. (Not really a punch, just to press the wads down firmly)
 
LEE sells de-priming punches as spares for their dies, cost about $3.

LEE adjustable shot dipper.

LEE powder dipper set.  Every reloader should have a set already, or should get a set; - soon.

I have the RCBS Cowboy 12 gauge dies, but it was a waste of money, except for the shell holder.  The shell holder is a great alternative to banging on the primers with a punch & hammer.  The crimp function is also not essential and hard to do anyway.  Just seal the over-shot wad in with waterglass or glue and go-to-town.

Of course, a scale and calipers are a must-have for any reloading task.

[Abilene]

Although I have not loaded smokeless in brass shotshells, I have loaded a lot of BP in them.  I don't have a way of crimping them, and don't know if I would crimp them even if I could.  Although I'm sure crimping a bit would help a bit with inserting them into my SxS, I think it also probably over time would weaken the case mouth.  I have several different types of shells, Rem-UMC, Winchester, Alcan, and a handful of Rocky Mountain Cartridge heavy duty ones.  All of these were bought used, so I have no idea how much use they had before I got them, but I have reloaded some of them over 50 times with no splits or cracks at the mouth!

One other thing to consider.  I seem to recall reading somewhere from someone who used the brass hulls for smokeless saying that he had to resize them after shooting.  Due to the higher pressure I suppose.  Using BP, most of us never have to resize ours, which is good because sizing dies are not cheap and require a specific press.  I have a homemade sizing die (block of steel with hole drilled in it), but only have to size when the mouth gets a little out of round.

You might try a few with BP.  I'll bet you like it    And SxS shotguns are sooo easy to clean, even using plastic wads like I do.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

SCdB-

I have everything you listed in your reply... I did notice that the dies are not cheap. Since I am a "newbie" with the brass shotshells, do not know ifn I wish to invest a lot of money in that... Just thought that it might be fun to shoot them... in all honesty it appears that shooting the holy black in them is the path of least resistence. However, think I will try the load data that Abilene sent using Tight Group... I have all the makings for that minus the dies, which I can handload the shells. I have the stuff Sir Charles mentioned except for the copper pipe and that can be had at Lowe's.

Abilene: Ifn you shoot the brass from the same shotgun everytime.. why would have to resize? I would think if you shot from only one gun you would not have to resize the case... or am I wrong??? Maybe I mis-understood what you said??? If so, sorry.
I will try both, BP and the Tite Group... for me I just do not like the smell of the holy black.... Laugh...I would not have made a good cowboy back in the 19th century.  I like the BOOM...but hate the smell.

[FriscoCounty]

I agree about the RCBS dies being of minimal use other than the shell holder.  Love the shell holder.  I use it with the RCBS hand primer to prime my brass shells. After that the only tools I need are a piece of 3/4" dowel and a Lee adjustable shot dipper.

I suppose I will eventually need the dies to resize the shells when I have extraction problems, but they are heavy enough I don't have a problem, yet.  Course, I use BP for my brass shotshells.  If I am going to use that heathen smokeless stuff, I use paper or plastic.