Rattling 1911's

[petrinal]

STI´s have investment casting frames, probably made in the Philippines, and machined slides from bar stock, not from forgings, as well as cast slide stops.

in general they function well once tuned to a load, but they are not reliable as figthing tools, for two reasons:

the slide/frame fit is too tight, take that gun to a trench, and it will fail.

in some models, like the modular ones, the Slide is too heavy, unlike the original browning design, as the gun is designed to do double taps in IPSC...along with a too tight fit to the frame. the result is a quite lazy slide, that needs very well reloaded ammo.  Many ISPC shooters say that theirs are reliable, but only after they got good loads, or found the perfect brand for theirs.

if you fit a slide with zero tolerance to a frame, you may expect troubles. Imagine that situation in war, with dirt, snow, sand..and probably many different brands of ammo, including the enemy´s. Thats why designers of the old shool, like BROWNING, made firearms with some degree of play, lets say 0,03 mm minimum, which is a common tolerance in fabrication...it can even go to 0,1 mm.

I remember doing an experiment some time ago:

I reloaded weak ammo, around 50 rounds of 9mm,  in purpose, and shot it in 4 pistols:

Beretta 92

Russian Viking 9mm

BRNO CZ

STI TROJAN

the Russian Viking pistol was able to feed and shoot most rounds, the Beretta 92 and BRNO only feed and shot 3 or 4. and the TROJAN failed miserably...it jammed at the first round.

the difference was that that the russian viking pistols followed the old russian school of design: light slide, not too tight, strong spring=very reliable!

a 1911 must rattle a little, in other words, have some play to be a reliable combat tool. Yours may have zelo tolerance, be tight, in other words, but shooting in a range your tailored or brand new factory ammo is not the same as shooting in a trench, outdated ammo, with plenty of mud, rain and days and many days since you cleaned the gun for the last time. Browning knew that, and in fact, COLT still  makes their 1911s according to those original tolerances and are very reliable if the extractor is well tensioned.

[petrinal]

What about the Mauser C96 'Broomhandle' for simplicity and ingenuity of design? No pins, no screws.

Just lousy ergonomics.

very large, and extremly expensive to manufacture, with endless machining operations. A true beauty.

[PJ Hardtack]

Next time I'm crawling through the mud or sand with a 1911, I'll remember that a 1911 needs to be sloppy to function reliably.

I own three 1911's - one Colt, two R1's. All three enjoy a tight slide-to-frame fit (particularly the Gold Cup) and are utterly reliable where I use them - on the range and in competition.

I doubt very much that the new Colt rail guns being purchased by the USMC have a sloppy slide-to-frame fit. Obviously, they could benefit from your extensive knowledge and experience - on the range and in combat.

Try shooting a P-08 with weak ammo. Or a C-96. Both require quality, clean powerful loads. Try shooting garbage ammo in a tightly fitted revolver under range or a dirt environment. I shot a .357 in enough IPSC matches to know that I needed even more care and attention to my ammunition.
I loaded all my match ammo on a single stage press rather than my Dillon 550B. All rounds that looked out of spec were set aside for practice.

[Advertising]

[petrinal]

I didnt say "slooppy", I said "a play".

a play of around 0.03 is not excesive (the gun will not exactly " rattle" or will do it very slighty...) but will be enough to let the gun work in unfriendly conditions.

a ZERO PLAY, is allways risky in firearms..not only mud or sand, dirt or burnt powder or no cleaning for a long time,  but dillatation of parts may cause a problem.

the fashion of "zero play", is relative new, in order to get maximun accuracy, and I dont remember any military Browning type pistol made in the old times with "zero play"...be it a 1911, a RADOM, a Ballester MOLINA, a Star or a HP.


it was WILSON COMBAT the first one, maybe, to start this negative fashion, and they made the 1911, a very reliable gun, into something that does no longer work as it did in the old times.

 I dont know about GOLD CUPS, my brother had 2, I had none and dont like the gun..... I dont even think they are or were  neccesarily more accurate than series 70´s or 1991s or modern WW1 replicas... by shooting my brother´s and friend´s(the 2010 WW1 replica was  probably the most accurate 1911 I have tested, and of course is not tightly fitted) ...all made by Colt with the slight play in the original BROWNING´S specifications, and very reliable.

I have not seen such reliability in KIMBERS, STIs, etc.....not owned by me, but by other club members. They all had zero play.   Some comtemporary gunsmiths, and certain  1911 gurus  today are wrong in this stupid "zero play/tightly fitted slide to frame fashion, but they have convinced many other gunsmiths, shooters and professionals thah this is the way, and the result is 1911s  that are less reliable than ever before.

fortunately, COLT has not followed that trend and still makes their pistols the old way, at least in the SERIES 70, 1991´s, Combat Goverments, etc..the models I know and have shot and used or owned.

[PJ Hardtack]

Slight frame to slide movement does not constitute a"rattle". I'm talking about a gun that audibly rattles when shaken. And you are the only one to make reference to "zero play", which is NOT the kind of fit I am referring to when I say "close-slide-to-frame" fit.

If you don't like Gold Cups, that is your privilege, but to say that a Gold Cup is NOT a more accurate gun that a stock Colt 1911 is ludicrous. Thousands of bulls-eye shooters on this side of the Atlantic would take umbrage with that remark, and they have the  experience with target and combat guns - under match conditions, which you lack due to your dislike of competition.

My Gold Cup, a series '70 model, has fired thousands of 'major' loads and is still as tight, if not tighter than my new Remington R1's.
A Series '70 Government purchased at the same time was such a "rattler" that I traded it off.
Yesterday, we had one of our two weekly indoor IPSC practices, and all the guns performed well, and none of them "rattlers".

[petrinal]

there is not winning or loosing here, it is just conversation, ok?

the problem is that I am a certified machinist, it is my job, and RATTLE DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME FOR YOU THAN FOR ME....for me "rattle" is just any play  over 0,03 mm ...which is big tolerance in machining....but  something that most shooters would call "a very reasonable fit" or even "tight"....ok?

lets say that 0,1 mm is a big big play for me ( I would call  that "rattle"....).....


 in short,  what you call "close slide to frame fit", in machining fabrication might be a play of 0,05 mm ...which, by the way, is large tolerance. So close slide to frame fit for most shooters, might qualify as "slight rattle" for a machinist...ok? (if it is over 0,03 mm)

some comercial pistols have plays of 0,1 ...0,2... 0,3...0,5 mm very large for  a machinist indeed..but not for a novice in machining.

I have seen most STIs and more than one KIMBER with what I call "zero play", in other words, virtually no play...less than 0,005......no good.

military 1911 that do what you call "rattle",  which is a enormous play for my standards ( 0,8 mm, for instance) are guns very much used, mistreated and possibly with a mix of parts...slide and frame from other pistols, etc...probably not made with such big tolerance originally...but as a result of years of use.


 I do compete in Bulls eye, not in IPSC..I am not interested in that sport.

[PJ Hardtack]

I rest my case, and this conversation is over.

I do compete in Bulls eye, not in IPSC..I am not interested in that sport. [/quote]

[cal44walker]

Petrinal...here's another certified machinist telling you to....again...stop the BS. For example, 0.03mm is not a huge tolerance for a machinist. That statement does'nt even mean anything. ISO medium standards for tolerances are +/- 0.05 up to 3mm, +/- 0.1 from 3 to 6mm, +/- 0.2mm from 3 to 6mm and so on. Even on a military grade firearm, 0.05 is nothing unless its an absoloutly critical measurement like barrel groove diameter or headspace. And a rattle is when a gun makes an audible noise due to excessive tolerances, its not a measure of those tolerances. And by the way, you might want to let Sig Sauer in Gemany know about the "no good" tight fit you are talking about. Their match guns are made so that they can't actually lock the slide all the way closed for the first few 100 rounds. I've owned several and they all needed at least 8 boxes of ammo throught them before the slides locked forward. After that......1,000's of rounds with no malfunctions or stoppages of any kind. Guns with very tight slide to frame fits can be perfectly reliable in normal competition conditions. Fact. And stop with the "John Browning designed the 1911 with big tolerances for reliability" Had he been making a sports weapon for high level competition, it would have been virtually hand fitted and still reliable. The 1911 was designed for military use to be produced in very large qualtities quickly under less than perfect conditions. One of the clauses of the original military contract was for interchangable parts. The best way to do that in the 1900's without CNC machinery? Larger than neccasary tolerances.

[petrinal]

we can talk long about tolerances and fittings,  but by the way,  ISO establish 5 different ways of "sliding fittings"

-with lubrication ( depending on dimensions,  goes from miminums of 0,007 (yes, 9 thousands) for a diameter maximum 3 mm  to 0,04 for a diameter of 500 mm maximum (axis)..

-sliding without lubrication  (probably the most interesting for us) goes from minimums of 0,025 for 3 mm diameter to 1,57 mm for a pieze of...500 mm diameter!

-normal sliding fitting (what you call medium)...etc

-ordinary sliding fitting...etc...

so you forgot to mention  the very important relation of tolerance/ diameter of pieze....and a tolerance of 0,05 in a pieze of , lets say, 15 mm...is huge....unless you´re working in the cathegory of "very big play", that normally applies to supporting devices of large diameter ...etc..

I am talking about reliability from a general point of view, not only in the range, with well taken care of  clean gun, tailored ammo, etc..

the rest is repeating the same (service pistols made with a  needed play for reliability) but let me add that the 1911, as most great pistols designed before the 1930´s, was not designed with ease of fabrication in mind, it is an expensive gun to manufacture, with more thann 200 machining operations.

let me add that 1911s made in WW1, for instance, are deliciously made firearms, with tolerances similar to comercial Colts.

time also to take a rest, all is said from my part.

[cal44walker]

so you forgot to mention  the very important relation of tolerance/ diameter of pieze....and a tolerance of 0,05 in a pieze of , lets say, 15 mm...is huge....unless you´re working in the cathegory of "very big play", that normally applies to supporting devices of large diameter ...etc..

Nope...you forgot to mention it and I gave an example of an everyday tolerance range that would be used in handgun manufacture. I'm well aware of all the tolerance ranges but a handgun is not a 150 meter long windmill blade so they are not relavant.

but coming back to guns, "big tolerances" are common in semiautomatic service pistols, and they are there for reliability.

No, they are there to reach the acceptability for parts interchangablilty and ease of machining and the by-product of this is that looser pistols generally more reliable in battlefield condiditions. Although you might still want to ask what many of the special units of militaries around the world are doing with tight fitted Sig Sauer pistols in combat.....

[cal44walker]

I noticed you reeditted your post removing several false claims again just as I was writing my reply. this was one of them

....COLT made them, and makes them still today, with the right play....and refuses to make most models with the extremly tight fitting typical in other brands.


No....after unionisation and the huge rise in wage costs Colt has to make a commercial pistol with the minimum of labour and fitting and therefore produces for the most part, pieces of junk that fit together with minimal extra labor required at the maximun possible market price. I know, I owned a series 80. Expensive junk.

And other thing you decided to edit out as you probably realised you were wrong after you posted it was that modern CNC machines are no more accurate than ancient hand operated ones.

What vending machine did you buy your machining certificate at? (MODERATOR NOTE: There is absolutely no need for you to address a participant in the conversation in this way.  People can disagree without bullying.  Even on the web)  CNC machines are the most precise metal cutting (no, not grinding or lapping...cutting) tools ever seen. They have all sorts of mechanical and digital technology that means they not only produce in quantity but also in high quality with less operator care needed. I believe you've been warned by the moderators to stop spreading missinformation. You are still doing it and I caught you out here trying to edit out major portions of your posts before I could see them. I saw them.

[cal44walker]

but let me add that the 1911, as most great pistols designed before the 1930´s, was not designed with ease of fabrication in mind, it is an expensive gun to manufacture, with more thann 200 machining operations.


  So Browning should have used what? Metal stamping technology not yet refined to the point where it could be garanteed to work.? CNC 7 axis machines not yet invented? Poor quality casting to save time on machining but resulting undoubtably poor quality and lifespan of the weapon. Just about everything was complicated to make back then as it was all bar stock or forged and then cut from solid. No CAD/CAM, no real stress analysis without time consuming and expensive destruction testing. Overbuild and machine from solid metal for strength was the name of the game. And the result? A pistol with the longest service life of any modern army. Compared to other contemporary pistols of the time, it was simple.

[petrinal]

your personal crusade is interesting, but I wont return you insults, neither to you, nor your school...(let me say that most americans/canadians I have argued with were very polite...and I admire them for that even thought I dont share their views).

well, I decided to make my post shorter, as it was too long, but as you insist, I will repeat the same again and will add more:


Colt still makes their pistols with the right play, not too tight, not too much, according to the original John Moses Browing specifications, and according to how the most classic  Browning type guns were made in that time (check an excellent Ballester Molina, for instance) and they are one of the few out of the box  1911 pistols you can buy today that are reliable if the extractor is well tensioned.....

many  other brandds, in the very expensive segment, STI, ED BROWN,  etc...are made with closer tolerances in slide/frame,  virtually zero, and as a  result...they are less reliable in most cases, and shooters make them work well via good realoads.... (and some "swearing", like a friend of mine, who didnt understand how a gun of over 2500 euros was sold "jamming")...by the way....I would like to see a STI in the trenches....compared to a "junk" 2010 series 80, which, by the way, has a better finish, and not the junk blueing of the Philippine/texan STI.

Your insults to COLT,  are interesting:

I worked long ago as an engraver, and I had to engrave both COLT, STI and SVI...

Colts are made from a forging (I can show you the raw forgings before machining) made in the same state, HARTFORD, by another company, from the best ordanance american steel. Slide, frame, and slide stop.

Sti, that you are selling now, is made from cheap Philippine castings, with "philippine ordance steel"..(STI is a small workshop in Texas that does minimum machining and a cheap finish, by the way...in a gun that cost twice as a COLT).

I engraved a COLT, a tough steel to engrave indeed...it was a "junk" series 80, made in the 1990´s...bouthg in Germany...the forged slide broke me a brackground burin, with works with hammer blows...and engraving that slide...was not easy...it was a tough, fine steel..that developed a fine burr...my hats off to COLT and to USA Steel! (100 % confidence in american made tools...in fact, my wood cutting tools, like chisels, are american too).

the STI, however, was soft..I had no problem engraving it. Same with SVI.

about CNC, it means more production with accuracy, not "more accuracy" in itself...accuracy depends, with no CNC, on man...and what he wants to get..I can get "zero"..if I want to...

 Precision machining exists since the swiss and germans invented it, very long ago, for watches and machinery... today, .with just a ball bearing tool carrier in your lathe and mill, for 700 euros, you can lathe and mill with no tolerances in your tool carrier displacements, and  you will be more easily able to machine under 0.02....0.01....

SO I WILL REPEAT...CNC is not more accuracy, IS MORE PRODUCTION WITH ACCURACY,  and less variables, with is different. But it also involves a very carefull follow of the whole process, as piece number 1 of  series...might not be as piece number 10,000 of the same number 1 fabrication series...

ok?

about the  1911 not being thought for easy fabrication, well, it is a gun expensive to manufacture from forged parts, as  it is a product of the golden era of gunsmithing, the same era of industrial excellence  and cheap skilled  labour cost (that are the main reason what makes CNC profitable, as you need less skilled men to get 5 times more) that gave birht to some years before, the MAUSER C96 and the LUGER...even a simple firearm, like the ASTRA 400, involves so  many machining operations, that would make it expensive to make today (even with CNC if you start from a forging).

just check a MAUSER K98 military rifle, to see what the vintage gunsmiths and skilled machinist could do 70 years ago, in desperate times for GERMANY, without CNC...Precision machining existed long before CNC, and I will repeat that 1000,000 th times.

edited personal comments.

[petrinal]

and of course that the 1911 is probably the greatest combat tool in history (in my opinion) ...and of course that JOHN MOSES  BROWNING wanted a forged/machined firearm....no  famous gunsmith/designer of that era was fond of stampings, etc..that came later, with WW2). Just take a look at a  SUOMI, or a BERMANG MP28, and you will notice how much machining they had, and they were military weapons.

 I found some pictures  last month (in paper) of the STI I engraved (I lost track of the COLT)...with more time I will share them maybe tonight. Expensive, accurate..but mild steel!

I would sincerely appreciate if you,  MR CAL 44 WALKER stops insulting in a personal way, like the school I attended, and if would be great if you stop  accusing me of doing false claims.... (I try to give facts to support my views, like ISO or COLT (try to engrave one).

if someone thinks different to you, that doesnt mean he is a liar...he just has a different opinion or view. You have yours, I have mine.

[cal44walker]

Ahhhh....yes.

Well, you must have a lot of spare time on your hands to write that much misinformation...again. I don't, so you believe your own made up "facts" if you insist on it. I will say one thing though. If you think you can beat the accuracy of a CNC machine with a manual one then you have never doen anything other than very, very, very basic machining. CNC machines have digital compensation software to compensate for the tolerances of the machine itself which are not found on manual ones. The machine itself has a tolerance variation from the factory that ONLY measurement with a dial PLUS digital compensation can rectify. that is unless you can remember where the variances are along the X,Y and Z axises and then manually compensate for them by turning handles by hundreds of a millimeter. It.cannot.be.done. Period. If you can then you need to call the Guiness book of world Records as the most skilled machinist who ever lived or go on the Superhumans show. CNC is more accurate AND faster for anything other than drilling a hole or 2. You think you can do it? Make me a Colt 1911 barrel on a manual machine with tolerances of not greater than +/-0.01mm including the eccentric cuts for the locking lugs on top. First time, not 15th, and without any hand fitting whatsoever.

[Jefro]

Howdy pards, I think we have purty much covered the OP. If you have anything to add by all means please do so. However it looks like a couple of you are getting close to poking the bear, please remember not to do this at CAS City. I started out editing the cuss word out of the OP, I don't care to do any more. If you have not read the CAS City forum guidelines please do so. And here's a little reminder from the Marshal;

The goal with Forum Hall and Cas City is to be a premier junction for cowboy & western action shooters who seek information on different fields of interests, both cas and non-cas.
 
When it comes to posting itself, there are some simple rules that we ask you to follow.

You agree, through your use of the Cas City Forum Hall, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law.

In other words, be polite, respectful and try to look at this forum as a place to create friendship not enemies. Please do not try to push any limits or provoke a range war. When this occurs, the winner in a range war here in Cas City is the one that backs off and use silence as the last word if provoked. Doing the opposite creates losers on both sides of the picket fence. Take personal disagreements elsewhere and off line if you cannot discuss a topic without name calling or street talk from a bad Hollywood movie. If not, the law will be more than happy to guide you to the right place.   If you can't interact here and in the same way as you do at the shooting range, this forum is not for you. If you need assistance or guidance how to respond, ask us instead of shooting from the hip. We have years of experience dealing with these kind of challenges.   

The rest of the guidelines and registration agreement can be found here:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,41358.0.html


Thanks,
Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[cal44walker]

I can't recall seeing any cussing, at least not from myself or PJ. And with respect, there is a common factor to all of the threads that have been locked or needed moderation and it comes down to one new member from abroad. As a gun owner I have a serious allergy to the spread of misinformation wherever it pops up. To give you an example of such missinformation I'll add the link below to STI Int.

http://www.stiguns.com/products/parts/frames/

The induvidual involved here in his own words described in the thread above STI pistols as "Cast from cheap Philipine ordanance steel" In fact STI offers 2 kinds of frame. Cast from high quality 4140 (An international standard type rating) carbon steel AND a forged one. Not only that but the same investment casting that Ruger uses. Anyone on this forum can themselves tell how strong the pistols made in that process are with exactly the same steel. How do I know this? Our shop is the country dealer and distributor for STI and I am one of the 3 gunsmiths who work on these guns, so I know.

Anyway, my point is not to provoke Jefro. As far as I know Petrinal has been in the moderators crosshairs more than once already and as I've just proved, when he's not speaking in half truths then he's just plain talking rubbish. I think anyone reading the thread needs to know that in order to know fact from fiction. In my opinion there are already enough myths in the firearms industry and we don't need him bringing in more.

cal44walker

[PJ Hardtack]

I have learned a few things (no, more than a few ...) from this thread, but if it's going to continue, we need to move it to the "gunsmithing" column.

While it's good to exchange opinions and viewpoints, we are better served when they are backed up by knowledge and first hand experience. I am always awed by the skill level and knowledge of good machinists and artisans of any type - particularly those in the firearms world.

The fact that we are willing to spend so much time and energy talking about firearms (not to forget those who work on them and keep them working for us!) indicates the how much they are a part of our psyche. That is what sets us apart from the 'antis' and 'hoplophobes'.

Peace, brothers! We have the enemies without to contend with. We need not create them within.

[PJ Hardtack]

I think we've beaten this topic to death.

Please - just let it die .....

[cal44walker]

I'll get the shovel.......

RIP