Civilian use of the Trapdoor?

[wyldwylliam]

Very insightful, JB. Between your above noted lists of TDs shipped by SH&G and these catalogs I have, Buffington's comments are really interesting. I wonder if the true facts will ever be discovered? With all the other guns available, particularly in the .45-70, it seems strange to me that companies of the day would go to the trouble of counterfiting the Gov. rifle. One wonders if Col. Buffington was perhaps making a PC statement or was ignorant of what was going out the back door. I have no reason to doubt him, just wondering.

If those TD's were of spurious origin, why would the Government not have brought suit?

[Ranch 13]

In addition to the already mentioned 50-70's , there were also 73 models issued to various militia and marksmanship units during the heyday of the target shooting.
 In the book Wind River Adventure , the author speaks of holding his Wyoming territory issued militia carbine, while hoping the drunk Shoshone brave banging on the line shack door did't knock it open , so he didn't have to shoot...
 Don't forget about battlefield pickups, there's a ton of those around in various local museums in the high plains country.
So was it possible for a civilian to possess a 73 springfield in 45 US? Absolutely, altho not real common, much the way of the firing lines at various shoots, there's always a couple but not many....

[JimBob]

The section on fraudulent Springfield rifles runs about 10 pages in Frasca & Hill's book.The Buffington quote was from a letter of several paragraphs in length.If you look at those old catalogs closely,they do not say they are manufactured at Springfield Armory,you see things like "Standard System" or "the same as adopted by the U.S.Gov't. and other vaguely worded phrases much like todays use of "military type" in describing goods.Truth in advertising was not a concept used or understood in the period.

What suit would the government bring if the seller did not explicitly say they were manufactured by a U.S.Government arsenal?It is not really known who was making these at the time either that would have been manufacturing the parts they lacked from surplus purchases.The fact that they were being manufactured and sold was known at the time is shown by the fact that at one point they were destroying i.e. de-milling scrap receivers and other critical parts to try and stop or slow down the sales of them.     

[Advertising]

[wyldwylliam]

Noted, JB, many thanks.  Been away from town for a spell.

[wyldwylliam]

Btw, just for the heck of it, here's how the adds are worded from both the 1883 and 1885 Meacham catalogs.

"UNITED STATES SPRINGFIELD RIFLES, 45-70, model now used by the U.S. Army, with knife-blade extractor; length of barrel 32 inches; weight 9 lbs...................................$10.00"

They also list carbines and rifles, both in .45 and .50 as well as Remingtons, Sharps, Ballards and some belly guns in the same list. The bottom of the page lists Spencer carbines and the Sharps Creedmoor in .45-100-550. Wholesale price of this last was $35.

Cheers,
WW

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Those were the "Good Ol' Days" of firearms buying.  Even counting for inflation!

[JayD481]

Sorry guys, I am brand new to this site (my first post) but I wondered if some one could help me to get to the right page or site to find out about this gun I have. It's a US Springfield 1883 model 1884. I have no use for this gun and would like to use it to trade for something more practical like a hand gun for concealed carry.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks 

[St. George]

Look at similar pieces on Gunbroker - the ones that actually sell - not just the ones with prices.

There's a 'big' difference.

The Trapdoor Rifle has a number of nuances - the Model of 1884 was the last one - but the typical factors are important - percentage of finish, originality, condition of wood, stock markings, condition of bore - etc.

Without detailed photos, it's impossible to guage.

Scouts Out!

[Oregon Bill]

Might mention that the new Model 1873 Trapdoor, which introduced the world to the .45-70 cartridge, first entered serial-numbered production early in the third quarter of 1873, and fewer than 2,000 rifles and carbines had been produced by the start of 1874. And yet archaeologists recovered .45-70 cartridge cases at the site of the Second Battle of Adobe Walls, fought in June of 1874, and as far as I know, no military personnel were present at that fight. This of course indicates that a 73 and ammo for it were in civilian hands in the first 12 months of production. And where there was one there were almost certainly others.

[Ranch 13]

Well hold on here, the Sharps 1874 could of very well have been at Abobe Walls. 45 2.1 was the standard chambering for the 45 caliber Sharps sporting rifles, anything else was special order and an extra 4$.
 Peabody actually presented the 45-70 to the War dept for their rifle trials in 1864...

[Oregon Bill]

Frank Sellers, in his book "Sharps Firearms," mentions that Sharps listed the chambering in its 1875 catalog.
Ranch, do you have information on precisely when Sharps first chambered in the government caliber? The Sharps was of course abundant at the Adobe Walls Fight, but since it actually went into production in 1871, that is to be expected. I would be astonished if there were a Peabody in the Texas Panhandle the summer of '74.

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

Would you mind if I asked you for your documentation on the introduction of the Peabody in a .45-70 Gov. in 1864?
My best,
Blair

[Ranch 13]

Frank Sellers, in his book "Sharps Firearms," mentions that Sharps listed the chambering in its 1875 catalog.
Ranch, do you have information on precisely when Sharps first chambered in the government caliber? The Sharps was of course abundant at the Adobe Walls Fight, but since it actually went into production in 1871, that is to be expected. I would be astonished if there were a Peabody in the Texas Panhandle the summer of '74.

 The chances of there being a Peabody in Texas would be as good as any other brand of rifle in 1874.
It's more likely that IF the 45-70 cases found at Adobe Walls were from the fight it was a rifle other than the Trapdoor. Don't overlook the Maynard as a possibility, IF those cases were a part of the fight and not something left behind from somebody goofing off at a later date.
 Must keep in mind the site was lived on by various folks at various times after the fight.

[Ranch 13]

Ranch 13,

Would you mind if I asked you for your documentation on the introduction of the Peabody in a .45-70 Gov. in 1864?
My best,
Blair

 Blair yes I would mind, but as this is an open forum and it does stand the chance of furthering other folks knowledge I will  say that  information comes from the 1865 Peabody catalog.
 Here's the depiction of the cartridges from same said catalog.

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

Thank you. It is ok that you mind because I have the answer for you.
Did you notice that these you posted are ALL rim fire cartridges?
The US Gov. wanted center fire starting in 1868 with the 50-70 Gov.

The US adopted 45-70 Gov. was center fire. Although it was most likely internally primed center fire until about 1880.
My best,
Blair

[Ranch 13]

Yeh well the thing is the 45-70 cartridge submitted by Peabody won the rifle trials...
 

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

Yea, they may have.... and in that I do not disagree.
But this cartridge is not what the Gov. adopted!
I would be very surprised if any Peabody rounds were found at this fight. Not imposable just very unlikely.
Do you have "any" documentation to show the Peabody was used at Adobe Walls?

[Ranch 13]

No I don't have anything to say that a Peabody was at Adobe walls. And just as a point of clarification I never said there was one there. Altho it would be quite possible, as the Peabody was a widely circulated rifle at the time.
 It's also more than likely that there could of been a Sharps 1869 present there, and once again referring to Seller's book, those were chambered in 45-70 but production was discontinued in 1872.. As well as the great possibility of there could have been a 74 model there.
 Remember now that the rifle Dixon actually owned was a "round barreled" 44-2 5/8 , not introduced until late in 1873 and not cataloged until....
 Unless and until ( my money says it'll never happen with any guarantee of correctness) someone comes up with a list of actual arms owned by those that were at Adobe Walls, the chances of those 45-70 cases being a part of the fight are awfully slim, the chances of them being left there at a later time much higher.
 And the chances of a trapdoor chambered in 45 US being in action there are extremely thin to doubtful.
 

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

Ok. Kind of like the Peabody?
So, why did you bring the subject of Peabody up? When the topic was related to Trapdoor Springfield's? "please note the subject topic?" And that the 45-70 Springfield was adopted by the time period, and in use by the time of this fight. (not only within the trapdoor Springfield)
My best,
Blair

[JimBob]

As to trapdoors as surplus-

The number of stolen guns could have been sizeable in the period.Desertion rates assumed allmost heroic proportions,the peak was in 1871 when it reached 32.6%,8800 out of an enlisted force of aprox. 27,000+.


In looking in Frasca's Vol.2 there is a page in the appendix listing Springfield Arms sold by Schuyler,Hartley,& Graham.A lot of them were shipped to E.C.Meacham including .45-70 models.The first listing in that caliber TD was to Meacham,it's listed as sold Dec.3,1880-120 .45-70 Metcalfe(New)-120.There are two other listings that note the rifles as "New" in 1881 also shipped to E.C.Meacham,one order of 60 on Aug.1,and one for 40 on 8 Aug.


Adobe Walls-


Handgun Recoveries
.32 RF
.44 Henry
.44 S&W American
.44 Colt
.45 Colt
.50 Remington Pistol

Rifle
.44-77
.44-90
.45-70
.50-70
.50-90
.56 Spencer


Where and what-

Excavation of the stable-

1 .45 Colt cartridge
2 .45-70 U.S. Gov't.cartridges
1 .45-70 " " casing

Rath's Store

9 .45 Colt casings
1 .45-70 Van Choate CF casing
1 .45-70 U.S.Gov't casing

Myers & Leonard Store

4 .45-70 U.S.Gov't casings.

No cartridges or casings were found in the privy excavation.The surface finds were a .44RF Henry casing and a .56-50 Spencer casing.Two casings found which were of a slightly later date than 1874 were a .44 Evans Short CF and a .44 Long CF.

To account for the presence of the .45 Colt and .45-70 rounds you must take into consideration that the relief expedition from Dodge was furnished weapons by the Governor,20 Carbines and ammunition,and on Aug.18 the military was on site departing the 20th,and again in September after the hunters had abandoned the post.Lt.H.J.Farnsworth noting at the time that the buildings were still in good order.By late October the Indians had pretty much burned everything down.If the cartridges and casings were found in the burn layer it's  good evidence they were there before late October of 1874 when the Indians torched the place.