*** Photos Posted *** Spencer Rifle Serial # Exact Match in SRS Book

[jtkret]

First, I would like to thank Two Flints for helping me overcome my technical ineptitude so that I can become new fodder for the SSS.  

To this point, I have really learned some things from your postings and enjoyed looking in on it, so I thank all of you there.  I recently acquired a Spencer rifle and have a number of questions about it, but only a few questions at a time.  Unfortunately, I have nothing to contribute at this early point except that maybe to allow that another Spencer has surfaced.  

The questions; firstly, having moderate experience with older weapons and researching, this one appears to be authentic and original in all aspects.  But my question here is if there may be anything in particular to look for that may discount its authenticity in any manner?  Is the "rotating breech" system synonomous to "rolling block"?  

I am really keen on cleaning it up, but experience and caution demands that I rely on some experience out there regarding some do's and don't's; specifically solvents, disassembly and such.  I am really skittish about removing the barrel bands because I am very sure that unless one of you can tell me a secret, removing them and then replacing them will leave a bit of evidence marks.  The barrel appears to be six land and mics at .522, plus or minus a bit, exhibiting what I would call erosion in the muzzle area.  Over all the bore is passable, but does have some pitting within.  It is a rifle, not a carbine and has a 4 digit SN.
"Nough questions for now.  More later.

Two Flints, referencing Spencer rifle introduced into the SSS forum by jtkret this past week, attached are some photos.  I would like to thank the staff at Bullets & Bones Sportsmans Club (they have a website) in DeFuniak Springs, Florida for their help with the photos.  They are a new range/shop facility and I owe them the photo credit.

Use all or select what you feel is appropriate.  From the land of hurricanes and love bugs, thanks, jtkret.
















                               (Photos Posted by Two Flints)

[Trailrider]

First, it would help if you describe the various stampings on the top of the receiver, as well as any on the visible portion of the barrel, and any cartouche marks stamped in the wood. Also, it would help if you could post the first two or three digits of the serial number.  Also, is there a ring and bar on the left side of the rifle.  How did you measure the rifling groove diameter?  If you "slugged" it, by driving a ball/bullet down the barrel, that fact would help, versus just measuring the diameter at the muzzle.

The term "rotating breech" refers to the fact that in the Spencer action, the breechblock drops first when the lever is moved before the block rotates backwards, whereas a "true" rolling block simply pivots on large diameter pins that go transversely through the action.

[Two Flints]

Hi JtKret,

Glad we were able to get your registration problems solved      Welcome to the SSS Posse

You can send any photos you take of your Spencer Rifle to me at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net and I will post them for you, adding them to your comments above.  As Trailrider suggested, photos of the receiver area top and bottom and sides and with the breechblock drawn out so it can be seen, both sides would be great to see.  The stock and barrel photos, too.

Make your photos as sharp and clear as possible, with good lighting, preferably outdoor lighting.  Have a plain medium grey colored background if possible.

Thanks again for joining SSS.

Two Flints

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[jtkret]

Thanks for the reply.  On the flat over the receiver in small lettering is "SPENCER REPEATING - RIFLE CO. BOSTON MASS. PAT'D. MARCH 6 1860.".  This stamping is clear and clean, but the number "6" in the year date actually looks as if it could be a "G" (I hope that I know better than that, just stating what I see).  

Behind the action is stamped "1376" as the SN.  I am not able to find any other markings of any kind anywhere else visible on the rifle while assembled.  No armorer's stampings, no soldier's markings, no cartouches, nothing.  Two sling swivels; one underside of butt and the other on the middle barrel band.  Left side is clean.  You suggestion about slugging is good and that should be in my plans, but in the meantime, I used a micrometer as that was my only and most ready resource at the time.

Thanks for the clarification about the action, so it will be referred to as rotating breech.  And hopefully someone can educate me on the SN: 1376.

[Trailrider]

The fact that the serial number is well within the 1,000 - 11,000 range for M1860 Army Spencer Rifles, and the six-groove barrel is correct as well, means you have a great historical piece.  I cannot tell you to which unit it might have been delivered without further research. I suspect, by the time I can dig into my files, someone else will come up with what data is available.

As to the .522" measurement of the barrel, I presume you took the reading at the muzzle, which may have included the land-to-land dimension.  The reason for saying that is that the M1860's were chambered for th #56 rimfire cartridge, aka ".56-56 Spencer Rimfire.  The groove diameter (measured to the bottom of the rifling grooves) will probably run .545" at the breech end. I'm not certain about what a rifle should measure groove-to-groove at the muzzle, but I do know that carbines had tapered bores, and measure around .535" at the muzzle.  If they used the same rifling machinery for rifles, i.e., with a taper, the groove diameter in the longer barrel might indeed run as small as .522".  But I cannot say for certain.  The best way is to slug the barrel, and also do a chamber casting with CerroSafe low-melting point bismuth alloy (available from Dixie Gun Works or Brownell's)...NEVER use lead or bullet alloy to do this!

Hope this is of some help.

[Two Flints]

Oh my Goodness, JtKret ,

Only twice before did I find an exact match on a Spencer serial #   My Springfield Research Service book, Volume 3, indicates that your Spencer Rifle, serial # 1376, was issued to a member of the 6th Independent Company of Ohio Volunteer Sharpshooters sometime in August of 1863.

Take good care of your Spencer Rifle

Two Flints

[Preston County Rider]

JtKret - if you go on the Ohio State civil war site, there are listings for the various companies of the Ohio Sharpshooters. I have a rifle Two Flints id'ed as being probably delivered to the 5th Company - the 4th, 5th and now apparently the 6th Companies were all Spencer (or partially) armed. These units were at Chicamagua and down to Atlanta - there were also Ohio sharpshooter at Franklin (who did a helluva job on the attacking Conferderates) - you've got history there

Congrats!

PCR

[Trailrider]

jtKret- Oh, man! What a find! Treasure that Spencer, Pard.  I think you get one of those in a lifetime! With some research, you might even find out to whom the rifle was issued...if you get lucky! Various state units put out books with rosters, and sometimes narratives of the action of individual soldiers.  You might try contacting the Ohio State Historical Society.  Be patient. It took me twenty years to track down a civilian teamster who worked for the Army during the 1876 Indian Wars campaign, and carried a Sharps Carbine against the hostile Sioux. I still am trying to tie two photos obtained from the teamster's descendents, but the photo of a young, bushy-bearded man is the same person as an identified one of the gent in his eighties!

[jtkret]

Many sincere thanks to each of you that took the time to respond and special appreciation for putting up with a newbie.  So pressing my luck with your experience, one thing that does NOT match anything that I have uncovered in my research is the rear sight.  All that I have seen seem to have a flip up ladder type rear sight.  Mine has a small V-notch and is one small piece, spring loaded from underneath and has no evidence that I can discern, even with a magnifying glass of having been damaged, broken or in any manner having had the flip up style at one time.  Any comments here?  Back to my original posting regarding maintenance and such, any tips?  I plan nothing more than clean up and maintenance for the time being, or to better clarify that, there will be no alterations made.  Trailrider, your comments about the bore will have me looking into that area more closely, and will look into that more closely soon.  Also, when I can find a way, or someone to help, I will post some photos.

[Trailrider]

Need to see a photo or drawing. Possibly, the sight was replaced after the War.

[Jobe Holiday]

Yes, truly the find of a lifetime, and what a piece of American Civil War history!

Congrats!

J.

[Rim fire]

That Spencer rifle may have been issued initially to the 5th Michigan cavalry in Jan. of 1863.  This rifle falls in the serial number range of those issued (1000-2000).  The rifles were turned into ordnance in August of 1863 and replaced with carbines.  The rifle may have been a reissue in August to the Ohio sharpshooters.  You may have an even more historic Spencer than initially thought as the 5th Michigan  was one of 2 cavalry units armed with the Spencer rifle at Gettysburg.

[Trailrider]

And guess who commanded the Michigan brigade at Gettysburg?! "Come on, you Wolverines!" 

[jsmosby]

Well, he had it coming, post Civil War, Big time...