When Did the Winchester 1876 Receivers Get Changed from Iron (Serial #)?

[southfork]

I've read that the earlier Winchester 1876 receivers were made out of iron until sometime in the early 1880's.  Those receivers are supposedly more 'fragile' than the later receivers, and as such not good candidates for smokeless powder reloads.  I've been trying to find out the date of manufacture and approximate serial number when the switchover to the new receiver metalurgy occured.  Hopefully there will be experts on this forum who will know the answer.

I have had two original 1876 Winchesters in my life thus far, and still own a 45-60, serial # 398XX.  This 28 inch, octagonal barrelled, rifle has been in my family for many, many years.  The one that got away was a 45-60 short rifle.

[Grizzly Adams]

I've read that the earlier Winchester 1876 receivers were made out of iron until sometime in the early 1880's.  Those receivers are supposedly more 'fragile' than the later receivers, and as such not good candidates for smokeless powder reloads.  I've been trying to find out the date of manufacture and approximate serial number when the switchover to the new receiver metalurgy occured.  Hopefully there will be experts on this forum who will know the answer.

I have had two original 1876 Winchesters in my life thus far, and still own a 45-60, serial # 398XX.  This 28 inch, octagonal barrelled, rifle has been in my family for many, many years.  The one that got away was a 45-60 short rifle.

Howdy, Southfork.  Welcome to the fire.

I will take a shot at this, and hope that Buck will chime in as well.  According to Arthur Pirkle, the change from iron to steel recievers for the 1873 occured at serial #41000 in 1880.  Now, as I understand it, one reason for the change was that steel is easier to machine than iron.  My guess is that Winchester would have made the same change for the 1876 at about the same time.  That would put the change after serial #8972, or there about for the 1876.  Hard to see why a profit minded (time is money) outfit would have changed from iron to steel on one product and not another.  I would not take it to the bank, and I will do a bit more research and see if I can find anything else.

[southfork]

Thanks for your input Grizzly.  I would tend to agree that the switchover in metalurgy would likely occur at or near the same time for the Model '76 as the Model '73.  If anyone else has some insight or thoughts on this, let's hear about it.  I'll likely be loading 5744 powder behind a RCBS 300 grain gas-checked bullet in my 45-60, and I think my rifle's serial number would put it after the switchover.

Does anyone know of a source for already cast and lubed 300 grain GC bullets?  If not, I'll have to buy a mould, I guess.

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[Fox Creek Kid]

...And speaking of handloads, I have been reloading the .45-60 WCF for over 15 years for use in an original Winchester of 1881 vintage. Since originals are so old, and most of their receivers likely forged of iron instead of steel, I recommend they only be fired with black powder ammunition. Certainly it's a minor pain to clean up afterwards, but certainly less of a pain than picking pieces of steel out of your noggin because you blew up a valuable old original. (A friend did exactly this to a $4,000 Model 1876 Winchester, but luckily managed to avoid the flying pieces when it let go.)...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_52/ai_n26970141/


No less an authority than Mike Venturino says to NOT shoot smokeless in original Model 76's. I would heed his advice. 

[Buck Stinson]

Grizzly is right on the money for dates and serial ranges.  Fox Creek is handing out EXCELLENT advise.  ANYONY foolish enough to shoot smokeless powder (even if some of these powders are recommended) in an original 1876 Winchester, is asking for trouble.  It may not show up right away, but down the line you'll loose your gun or worse.  DON"T PRESS YOUR LUCK, IT'S NOT WORTH IT!!!!!

[Joe Lansing]

    Smokeless powder issues aside, you don't need gas check bullets in a '76. They may even put wear on an antique barrel. Gas checks are only needed for hotter smokeless loads. They won't hurt modern repro barrels, but you don't load hot in a '76.

                                                                            JL

[southfork]

I guess that I need to try to get over my aversion to loading cartridges with black powder.    It just seems so much simpler not to have to deal with BP, particularly the cleanup.  BP mess and cleanup are why I have thus far not fired my 45-60.

I know that there are several/many owners of original Winchester 1973's and 1876's that Do load with smokeless, and I am sure that they reload carefully so as to not overstress their rifles.  I have in my possession a 1973 issue of 'The Rifle' magazine wherein an article gives the details on loading the 45-60 cartridge with various recipes of smokeless powder.  That article mentions EARLY 1876 Winchesters sometimes developing cracks where the barrel joins the receiver and to watch for those if you have an early model 1876.  Later serial number 1876s are not said to have the issue with weak receivers.  If I were a gun writer in todays' litigous society (as opposed to 1973), I would probably soft-pedal smokeless cartridges for the old Winchesters too, but that's not necessarily the answer to the real issue --- which is what can be done to safely load these old Winchesters with smokeless.

Since my rifle seems to have been made with the stronger metal (steel) in the receiver, it may not necessarily be 'foolish' to load with the 'right' conservative smokeless load behind a cast 300 grain bullet.  Many people, of course,  think that reloading your own ammo in general is foolish by its very nature because of the potential for 'double loading,' using the wrong powder, using a filler, yada, yada, yada; and in a relative sense, they are probably correct.   That being said, I see enough evidence out there that original Winchester toggle-link lever-action rifles are being loved and enjoyed with smokeless powder reloads.  What good is it to have an old Winchester and not be able to shoot and enjoy it (I'm not referring to top-condition collectibles here)?

[Fox Creek Kid]

I guess that I need to try to get over my aversion to loading cartridges with black powder.    It just seems so much simpler not to have to deal with BP, particularly the cleanup.  BP mess and cleanup are why I have thus far not fired my 45-60.

I know that there are several/many owners of original Winchester 1973's and 1876's that Do load with smokeless, and I am sure that they reload carefully so as to not overstress their rifles.  I have in my possession a 1973 issue of 'The Rifle' magazine wherein an article gives the details on loading the 45-60 cartridge with various recipes of smokeless powder.  That article mentions EARLY 1876 Winchesters sometimes developing cracks where the barrel joins the receiver and to watch for those if you have an early model 1876.  Later serial number 1876s are not said to have the issue with weak receivers.  If I were a gun writer in todays' litigous society (as opposed to 1973), I would probably soft-pedal smokeless cartridges for the old Winchesters too, but that's not necessarily the answer to the real issue --- which is what can be done to safely load these old Winchesters with smokeless.

Since my rifle seems to have been made with the stronger metal (steel) in the receiver, it may not necessarily be 'foolish' to load with the 'right' conservative smokeless load behind a cast 300 grain bullet.  Many people, of course,  think that reloading your own ammo in general is foolish by its very nature because of the potential for 'double loading,' using the wrong powder, using a filler, yada, yada, yada; and in a relative sense, they are probably correct.   That being said, I see enough evidence out there that original Winchester toggle-link lever-action rifles are being loved and enjoyed with smokeless powder reloads.  What good is it to have an old Winchester and not be able to shoot and enjoy it (I'm not referring to top-condition collectibles here)?

You've been given straighforward advice. Obviously, we cannot force you to heed it. I have witnessed several guns "grenade" and it was not pretty. As for other people doing it, remember that many people drink & drive, cheat on taxes, etc., as well. Science does not abide by what what one "feels" to be true. Just remember that you were warned. 

[southfork]

What is best to put on the patches to clean the black powder out of the bore?  I've heard of hot water being used, and Windex being used.

[wildman1]

I usually use water with a little bit of dawn dish detergent. I carry a 35mm film container with wet patches in it and most of the time clean at the range after I'm done shooting. I have used the MOS, alcohol and peroxide mix but I don't think it does any better than water and dish soap.  I have also used Windex with equally good results. WM

[southfork]

Thanks for the BP cleaning tips, WM!