reverse draw

[HogDoc Olliday]

Is there a SASS rule against "reverse draw"? I am not speaking of cross draw, where the revolver is angled and pointing behind me, but the revolvers would be pointing straight down with butts forward and the draw would not be crossed but with the same side hand...twisting the wrist, palms facing outward.

thanks

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

There have been prior discussions on this topic.  A former Pard was called on it by an RO, who did not quote any rule but called it unsafe.  "Danny Nighteyes" responded by shooting a short video of himself to demonstrate that it was actually safe. 
(I tried to find it awhile back.  Does anyone have that link?)

I would avoid it as it might be too easy to get a DQ.  Challenging that would still put you out of that match.  If you wish to try it, practise a lot and then do a demo for the Match Director before the match.

[PJ Hardtack]

When I bought a pair of holsters (right and left), I played with wearing the left hand holster on my strong side - i.e. reverse draw.

I practiced in front of a mirror and I'm convinced that I can do it safely, perhaps more safely than some of the dubious x-draws I see regularly. Reholstering is done just as safely with one hand or two, at the shootist's discretion.
I proved it by doing it satisfactorily in a local match. This pleased a couple of Cavalry types who would dearly like to wear their military flap holsters in an historically correct manner.

I think we make too much of this. Anyone wearing a holster that picks up brass is sooner or later going to be pointing a muzzle at someone's body. We PRESUME that the gun is unloaded, but we still look into a lot of dark holes ......

Which brings to mind an issue I've raised many times to no avail .....

IPSC shooters have their 'Black Badge', a symbol of proven competence in safe gun handling. I think it's time that CAS gave thought to a similar badge of proven competence and I suggest we call it the "White Stetson" since the 'good guys' always wore white hats in the 'B' movies.
This would be an indication that the wearer has had training in a safe, straight finger draw technique, regardless of holster type.

We get people coming to the game with the money to buy the toys, but with little knowledge or experience in gun handling. Some are not open to constructive criticism. If the training was mandatory, we'd all be a lot safer.

Whaddya think .... ?

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[Pettifogger]

Butt forward or the "Cavalry twist" is SASS legal.  Just need to maintain muzzle control.

[Trailrider]

Butt forward or the "Cavalry twist" is SASS legal.  Just need to maintain muzzle control.

I have said for about the last 20+ years that if the gun is correctly loaded, with an empty chamber under the hammer, and the shooter keeps his/her thumb off the hammer spur, the ONLY WAY a single action revolver can go off prior to being pointed safely downrange, is...for someone to hit you with a flamethrower! 

Having said that, I got tired years ago of having to explain to some RO that the cavalry draw is safe.  So I went with a butt-rear, open-top holster similar to the one designed by Capt. Fechet, commanding Co G, 8th Cav in the 1880's. (Except I leave off the cartridge loops he had around the top of the holster.)  Fechet had his saddler sergeant, William Miller make a bunch of these up and apparently issued them to his troops down in Arizona. Fechet sent a sketch to the Ordnance Dept., but they weren't interested.  Perfectly authentic field use by a company commander during the Indian Wars campaigns.  The holster is essentially a slim-jim design with a plugged end, and a narrow skirt that extends down the back side of the holster body. The body is held to the skirt by a narrow strap and buckle. I make them with an inner loop that fits snug on cartridge belts, but the rig can also be used with the canvas Mills belts, M1874 canvas belts, etc., by slipping the wider belts through the larger belt loop opening.  Remember, regularion equipment is nice and was certainly issued during the IW campaigns, but there was a LOT of field expedient stuff that went on in the "Regular Army-O".

[Forty Rod]

IPSC shooters have their 'Black Badge', a symbol of proven competence in safe gun handling. I think it's time that CAS gave thought to a similar badge of proven competence and I suggest we call it the "White Stetson" since the 'good guys' always wore white hats in the 'B' movies.
This would be an indication that the wearer has had training in a safe, straight finger draw technique, regardless of holster type.

What do I think?  I think we need more badges, categories, details, etc like I need a case of mumps.

Emphasize safety and existing rules and stop trying to fine-tune and finesse things to the point where NO ONE knows all the rules and everyone has an opinion on every facet of every stage until people like me say to hell with it and stop shooting because it's simply not worth the hassle anymore.....as I have pretty much already done.

Besides, who's gonna pay for these white Stetsons...and who would wear them?  I personally think white hats are ridiculous and I look stupid in one.  Most people do.

How about anyone wearing a white Stetson must shoot in B Western?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

At page 30 of PACKING IRON is a right hand holster corresponding to Trailrider's description.  It is attributed to Capt. James Ropes 8CavR, of Ft. Ringold Texas, and made at San Antonio Arsenal 1885-1895.  The narative on page 31 mentions the Fechet model (1881) and Forsyth (1883).

[Abilene]

Like Pettifogger says, it is SASS legal (except for Gunfighter category.  There supposedly are reasons for this, but the powers that be have not been able to tell us why it is safe and legal to pull the left gun that way, and the right gun that way, but not both at the same time.  Oh well)

It has been pointed out numerous times that it can be safer (regarding muzzle direction) than pulling a long-barreled gun with butt to the rear.  But since not too many people do the twist draw, you might have to point out to an RO that it is legal and show him how you do it.  I mostly shoot at the same local clubs, and nobody has had a problem when I do the cavalry twist draw.  I only do it with the strong side gun - the weak side I slide around in front of my hip at the firing line and draw as a cross-draw.  And although I draw the strong side with a twist, I holster it in a different manner.  Some pics: http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/CavTwist.htm

[PJ Hardtack]

Forty Rod

"What we have here is a failure to communicate ...." Cool Hand Luke

I was suggesting a white Stetson BADGE, not the actual hat. I thought that was evident by mentioning the IPSC 'Black Badge' which is in the form of an IPSC 'Item' target.

People pay big bucks for specialized training like the 'Black Badge' course. There is no need for an exorbitant fee. Shooters who qualify could buy their badges as well as receive a certificate of qualification.

[Trailrider]

At page 30 of PACKING IRON is a right hand holster corresponding to Trailrider's description.  It is attributed to Capt. James Ropes 8CavR, of Ft. Ringold Texas, and made at San Antonio Arsenal 1885-1895.  The narative on page 31 mentions the Fechet model (1881) and Forsyth (1883).

Right! The Ropes pattern also incorporated a full flap.  OTOH, other than a few dozen or hundred of the Ropes pattern and some others, Ordnance never officially adopted a butt-rear holster until the 1912 Pattern for the M1911 Pistol.  That one had the swivel and leg tie intended to keep the holster vertical for a seated horseman.  That was followed by the M1916 which eliminated the swivel, and incorporated the wire to attach it to the web belt, a familiar pattern used well past 'Nam, and maybe even today by some special ops types.

There IS an advantage to the butt-forward carry.  It can be drawn by either hand in an emergency, unless you are very...ah, uh...barrel chested.  A butt-rear is more difficult to draw with the "off" hand even for a slim troop.

[LoneRider]

Legal in everything except Gunfighter or B-Western !

[Marshal Deadwood]

Although I haven't done it, the way Abilene shows it,,it appears very safe. Since I don't shoot to chase the speed, I feel I would be very safe at all instances with this butt forward on the strong side.

The trick might be,,,not do it so fast the RO can't follow it. Or not do it so fast,,that you 'trim' the safety factor.' With practice I'm sure It'd come totally natural and safe and give enough speed to suit any match.

Just muzin' here guys......

Deadwood

[Sagebrush Burns]

Been shootin' that way for several years now with a rig Trailrider built for me for that purpose.  When I go somewhere new I check with the powers that be and make sure it's OK at that club.  Never been refused and never been called for the 170 or safe gun handling.  Practice a bit and get comfortable with and go do it.

[Tall Dark Slim]

So the idea is to go slow and steady until you are a known competent. Sounds like a good strategy to keep all parties happy.
I'm a newbie so who is Trailrider and does he have a website?

[Sagebrush Burns]

Trailrider is a CASCity member, leather maker and cowboy action shooter.  He does very fine work in reasonable time at a very reasonable price.  Just google "Trailrider" to get his web site.

[Tall Dark Slim]

This is stretching the topic a bit, but if one had a vertical hanging holster in a cross draw position is it possible to use without doing the turn of the body using a modified draw stroke?

[Driftwood Johnson]

This is stretching the topic a bit, but if one had a vertical hanging holster in a cross draw position is it possible to use without doing the turn of the body using a modified draw stroke?

Howdy

That's what I do. I am right handed. I carry a 4 3/4" Colt on my right side in a normal right hand 'Duke' style holster. I carry a 7 1/2" Colt on my left side in a standard Duke straight draw 'right hand' holster, so the butt is forward on this pistol. The rules of the 170 are the same no matter how you carry your pistols. You still cannot break the 170. If you draw the pistol without doing something about keeping the muzzle down range, you will sweep everybody behind you and to the left when you pull the pistol. When I draw my left hand pistol with my right hand, I still swivel my hips a bit so that when the muzzle breaks leather it is not breaking the 170. Taking a step is optional as long as you don't break the 170.

[Tall Dark Slim]

I was thinking about the draw straight up, push the gun away from the body, and twist as it comes up to sights.  Sort of ghetto gangster sideways until safe down range.

[Driftwood Johnson]

What you describe is similar to the Cavalry Twist, which is just about the only way to pull a butt forward gun with the hand on the same side as the gun.

For crossdraw it's a lot easier to just swivel your hips so the muzzle is already down range before you clear leather.

Don't forget to swivel again when putting it away too. Sweeping anybody with an empty gun is against the rules too. Same thing at the loading and unloading tables.