Three digit Winchester 66

[Henry4440]

Is this a fake?

A Winchester 66 serial number 156 ?



http://www.icollector.com/Winchester-Model-1866-Saddle-Ring-Carbine-with-Three-Digit-Serial-Number_i10101410

For me it's a second model and not a first model.Look at the frame!!

 

[Mako]

Henry,
You are right, it isn't a 1st model, but it looks like it has some 3rd model features as well.  Don't 2nd variants have an integral front sight on the barrel band?  The lever loop looks bigger as well which I believe started on the 3rd variant.  I need my book, I can't remember all of the differences between 2nd and 3rd.  I know that some 3rd variants had the integral front sight, but I'm not sure about the 2nd variants. 4ths are easier because they have some shared '73 features and sometimes parts like iron butt plates on them.
 
This is mysterious, not the serial number, but some of the features.  The '66s started just South of 13,000, the first one (a carbine) was even several hundred earlier than the majority of the first ones.  The serial numbers were intermingled with the Henry models they were still producing.  I have read there was a special order in '68 or '69 where they ran as many as 3,000 with serial numbers starting with #1. I believe all of them were produced before the normal 20,000 sequential serial number. Below 20,000 means they would be the 2nd variant.

I wish I was at home, I have the Madis book and  the serial number handbook.  I think that is the answer to your mystery though.  Perhaps someone has theirs at their finger tips and can tell you the exact date.

Regards,
Mako

[Marshal Deadwood]

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/model_66.shtml

The very first '66 on this site ,,THEY say might be the very first 'Winchester' ever made. What do you guys think ?

MD

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[Henry4440]

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/model_66.shtml

The very first '66 on this site ,,THEY say might be the very first 'Winchester' ever made. What do you guys think ?

MD

Marshal, i don't think so.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36606.0.html

L.H., I highly recommend the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Repeating-Arms-Company-Development/dp/0873497864/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297877779&sr=1-7

Houze shows photos of other Winchester models made prior to the '66 and sold to Mexico & Cuba as well as in Europe. Houze states that serial numbers began with #1 and I for one agree with him. He is the former curator of the Win. Museum & a noted authority on Winchesters and not some quack to be taken lightly IMO.

I can only say:  BUY IT

 

[Mako]

Henry,
I got bored during a meeting and looked at the photo again.  That barrel is a 4th Model barrel.  See where the rear sight dovetail is?  It obviously has a replacement front barrel band and the front sight is also dovetailed into the barrel.  It's missing the lever keeper and I cant' say for sure what the butt plate material is.  It's probably brass, but if it is iron then it is a 4th model butt plate.

It's appearing more and more like a parts gun.  With that serial number it is one of that group I spoke of, it should be valuable even as a parts gun.  There are other documented cases of those low numbers,  I just looked on the Winchester Collector's site Deadwood linked us to and it says Parsons thought they were made in '68.  The description says the lever loop is bent which you can see, I still think that is one of the larger loops which I believe is one of the features of the 3rd and 4th models model.  We can't see if there is more than one tang screw and the knurling on the hammer can't be discerned.

It's sort of a mystery gun.  Too bad we can't just buy it and look it over.

Regards,
Mako

[Henry4440]

Henry,
I got bored during a meeting and looked at the photo again.  
It's sort of a mystery gun.  Too bad we can't just buy it and look it over.

Bored during a meeting? Sounds like my old firm.  

The Winchester was sold for 2,750.00USD to floor+ (536.25) buyer's premium + taxes, fees, etc..
I say, only a collector would buy it for that price.

It's the first time i see or read about a three digit serial number. Houze wrote in his book:
.....The existence of specimens bearing four digit serial numbers has been know for years, however they have been regarded as anomalies by those who advance the 1867 date of production commencement.......

 

[Coffinmaker]

Besides, why would we want to buy a new "old" toy we can't "play" with.  Now, iffin it were an old toy and we could get reasonably priced ammunition for it, and I knew why the lever was bent, I could be tempted.
But ................
Since I have a new build copy of a '66 that will run .44 Russian all day, why bother??
And ...... Yea, looking at it, it's a "parts" gun.  Still real old, but "just" a parts gun with no real known provenance.  So if I were decorating a Den and needed a wall hanger for ambiance, I'd go a hundred bucks.

Coffinmaker

[Buck Stinson]

You're right, it's not a first model or second model or even a third model.  It's a fourth model, probably in the 156xxx serial range.  Not a three digit number 156.

[Mako]

You're right, it's not a first model or second model or even a third model.  It's a fourth model, probably in the 156xxx serial range.  Not a three digit number 156.

Buck,
I'm not willing to call it a 4th model.  Unfortunately the hammer is forward against the firing pin.  That is the best way I have found to tell the differences between the hammer area profiles of the 2nd, and 3rd/4th models.  I know the 4th is supposed to have an even shallower dip than the 3rd, but I just can't see it.  With the firing pin back it gives you a reference point and your eye picks up the dip difference.  I think the perceived difference between 3rd and fourth models is probably from different finishers and not the machining.

Now I can tell the 2nd from 3rd and 4th models, you can too if you look at the firing pin extension position.

I looked in my Madis book yesterday and he doesn't talk about the low serial number rifles.  But, they are a reality and Parsons talks about them and it looks like he says 1868.

THE FIRST WINCHESTER  John E. Parsons ; p102 " ...A few specimens of the Model '66 have been reported with serial digits of three or four from 100 to 2611.  While no explanation for their separate numbering is known, the frame characteristics of such pieces are later than those in the 14,000 range, yet most have inside serials which would date them in 1868, before serial 20,000."  

Being before 1868 would most likely make them 2nd model frames, the 3rd models seemed to appear around 1870.  But, as always, they jumped around and in some cases they find lower numbers coming out of the factory years after higher numbers.

I'm not disagreeing with you except for the reported serial number (unless it is an outright fake), but what makes you believe it is a 4th model other than the sight positions and the barrel band I pointed out?

Regards,
Mako