Why so many guns?

[Two-Step]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. Eventually, someone is going to form a CAS organization that does not require "so many guns". When it comes down to it, it is their club and their way... so it seems that a new club might be just the thing.

In fact, feel free to contact me, I have some experience and ideas about this very subject.

[Bow View Haymaker]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. Eventually, someone is going to form a CAS organization that does not require "so many guns". When it comes down to it, it is their club and their way... so it seems that a new club might be just the thing.

In fact, feel free to contact me, I have some experience and ideas about this very subject.

someone already has.  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,20.0.html

It's called the Grand Army of the Frontier. and it started right here on CASCITY.  we have matches and everything. 
you DO NOT have to where a uniform or shoot a military rifle to compete.  read through the Barracks and see.
 (2nd time its mentioned it in this thread )

[Cliff Fendley]

Isn't it funny how you've got GAF and NCOWS, both have been mentioned on this thread and people still refuse to believe there are options with less guns involved.

In fact one of NCOWS biggest issues right now is discussions on forming more classes with less guns and revolver only classes for people with physical limitations.

If your wanting to start your own shooting organization the ground work is laid out for you, just start a posse with one of the organizations that already exist.

[Advertising]

[Two-Step]

someone already has.  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,20.0.html

It's called the Grand Army of the Frontier. and it started right here on CASCITY.  we have matches and everything. 
you DO NOT have to where a uniform or shoot a military rifle to compete.  read through the Barracks and see.
 (2nd time its mentioned it in this thread )

I took a brief gander at the GAF rules and regs and I am now slightly confused. They say era MILSPEC weapons and clothing, while you state the contrary. I have contacted GAF for rules clarification, pertaining specifically to required guns and clothing.

In fact, that could be part of the problem with many of the CAS groups... it seems that there are "THE ORGANIZATION RULES" and then there are "WHAT WE REALLY DO RULES". I know that when I used to do MILSIM events, THE RULES where THE RULES... period

I will comment further on this once I have received clarification for GAF.

BACK TO TOPIC
In defence of "multi-gun" CAS organizations... sort of.
Plainly and simply, CAS organizations such as SASS, are typically a business enterprise. Mainly, they exist on membership fees and advertisers... not to mention a reliance on sponsors and event vendors.  Advertisers, vendors and sponsors want to sell stuff... so the more that is required, the more they will sale. I had to deal with this very thing, back in my MILSIM days.
When you break it down, it is simple economics. For example; Founder's Ranch did not come to exist with out a lot of CAS dollars being spent. Which, BTW, looks like an awesome place and is advertised as being available to rent. 

It cost money to operate any organization. The bigger the organization, the more money required to maintain it's operation. Insurance, staff, advertisement, construction,... it all cost money. With out that money, SASS and other CAS groups could not successfully operate. So, buy more guns, shoot hundreds of rounds of ammo, buy the fancy trappings and be happy that you are contributing to America's economy. 

From this view point, it is easy to explain "why so many guns"... with out the "sugar coating" and "propaganda" used to recruit and keep members.
Oh, and WE LIKE GUNS, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS !!!!  So, any reason to justify having bunches of them works for us.

[Bow View Haymaker]

While GAF honors the military history of the later 1800's there  is a place for "civilians within the ranks.  Look at the "Scout" and "militia" categories.  look under the "battle rifle guidelines"  you will see mil-spec categories and non-mil-spec categories.  they recognize and honor the authenticity of the museum quality uniforms and the expert marksmanship with mil-spec weapons but do not require it.  I have attended 5 regional and national musters and shot Scout class in all of them,  I usually were the same clothes as I so to SASS matches but am slowly working to something that at least has a solder "look" to it.  Great fun is always had by all.  there are some local clubs that are including the GAF categories in their offerings and the beginnings of a couple of GAF based clubs.  The muster guide gives even more info. 

[Camille Eonich]

Plainly and simply, CAS organizations such as SASS, are typically a business enterprise. Mainly, they exist on membership fees and advertisers... not to mention a reliance on sponsors and event vendors.  Advertisers, vendors and sponsors want to sell stuff... so the more that is required, the more they will sale. I had to deal with this very thing, back in my MILSIM days.
When you break it down, it is simple economics. For example; Founder's Ranch did not come to exist with out a lot of CAS dollars being spent. Which, BTW, looks like an awesome place and is advertised as being available to rent. 

It cost money to operate any organization. The bigger the organization, the more money required to maintain it's operation. Insurance, staff, advertisement, construction,... it all cost money. With out that money, SASS and other CAS groups could not successfully operate. So, buy more guns, shoot hundreds of rounds of ammo, buy the fancy trappings and be happy that you are contributing to America's economy. 

From this view point, it is easy to explain "why so many guns"... with out the "sugar coating" and "propaganda" used to recruit and keep members.
Oh, and WE LIKE GUNS, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS !!!!  So, any reason to justify having bunches of them works for us.

They were using three guns before they ever started worrying about sponsorships, vendors and such.  Generally they used only one pistol which at some time evolved to two simply because they wanted to shoot more and reloads took a lot of time.


You seem to pretty much grasp onto what you want and ignore everything else.  If arguing for the sake of arguing is your forte you may want to look into a debate competition.  I understand they require no guns at all. 

[Two-Step]

They were using three guns before they ever started worrying about sponsorships, vendors and such.  Generally they used only one pistol which at some time evolved to two simply because they wanted to shoot more and reloads took a lot of time.


You seem to pretty much grasp onto what you want and ignore everything else.  If arguing for the sake of arguing is your forte you may want to look into a debate competition.  I understand they require no guns at all. 

Maybe you would like to join me, you make some pretty fair arguments yourself. In fact, you have argued in at least as many threads as I have... probably more since you have been here longer 
As far as arguing, that was not my intent. I simply attempted to post a rational viewpoint that might help explain "why so many guns".

There are a few people here that know that I am of the "fewer-gun" philosophy. I don't see the need to have 4 guns in order to play gunslinger. But, that does not mean that I don't appreciate and respect that CAS has been made successful because of business practices which are conducive to the sales of CAS equipment.

Anyone who thinks that CAS is not a business, please point me to the successful CAS group that has no membership fees, no event fees, has lots of prizes and food, does not charge vendors and advertisers, and provides all the necessary equipment to the members so they can take part in matches and competitions.
Plain and simple, CAS is a business... for clubs, organizations, manufacturers, and retailers. And, there is not a thing in the world wrong with that. SASS is not bad because they are trying to make a buck or two... It is what makes them successful and allows so many people to enjoy CAS. In fact, it is the success of the SASS that has opened up the door to other CAS organizations.

While GAF honors the military history of the later 1800's there  is a place for "civilians within the ranks.  Look at the "Scout" and "militia" categories.  look under the "battle rifle guidelines"  you will see mil-spec categories and non-mil-spec categories.  they recognize and honor the authenticity of the museum quality uniforms and the expert marksmanship with mil-spec weapons but do not require it.  I have attended 5 regional and national musters and shot Scout class in all of them,  I usually were the same clothes as I so to SASS matches but am slowly working to something that at least has a solder "look" to it.  Great fun is always had by all.  there are some local clubs that are including the GAF categories in their offerings and the beginnings of a couple of GAF based clubs.  The muster guide gives even more info. 

1st, thank you for mentioning GAF. I was not familiar with them and I did not see your previous mention of them.
You are right, GAF is "fewer guns required" organization. Also, it is not entirely a MILSPEC group... though historical accuracy as seen with NCOWS does seem to be important.
I think that GAF and the CAS community could benifit from more exposure of GAF.

For the person not wanting to play 4-gun SASS, you might want to look into the GAF. Also, NCOWS does not require the use of "so many guns".
For the poor "B- western" fanatic, we are screwed.  For Now 

From Drydock via PM
"Milspec" classes, where you are required to shoot Milspec approved weapons and wear the uniforms that match them, and we have "Scout" classes, which can be shot with CAS style weapons and accoutrements.  This allows a potentially interested shooter to try our course of fire without the additional expense.
... these classes do not compete against each other, but only against themselves, and non milspec classes are not eligible for the championships at the three levels we designate.
IE, you shoot with GAF, find out you like GAF, then you can get involved with the needed weapons, uniforms, reloading and research needed to compete in the championship eligible MILSPEC classes.

[Camille Eonich]

I haven't argued the issue with you at all.  You keep asking why and complaining about the game requiring 4 guns and many people have given you many reasons why and have explained to you why it's not as easy as just adding another category.  People have offered you alternatives and you always snub your nose at them and explain why they aren't perfectly suited to you either.  People have explained to you that many clubs make amends and yet instead of getting out and going to a match and finding out anything about any of them you just keep returning to complain and point out why they aren't suited to you.

We get it already.  If it doesn't exactly match your desires then you don't want to be a part of even so far as to go and find what is really going on before you come online and try to tell other people about what's happening and make completely false statements.  Ignorance can be cured but it takes active participation and at least some level of comprehension not to mention at least the desire to learn about the subject that you are trying to communicate about.

[Jefro]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. 

Howdy Two Steps, it really ain't that way at all. As I've posted on the first page and on other simular threads, if you only want to shoot one gun bring it to a match and shoot it. But the way a cowboy action match is set up your just not gonna get the full effect, and for me it would be down right boring. Here's a typical stage;10 Pistol - 10 Rifle - 4 Shotgun.....Start at goat wagon with bag of money in both hands, rifle staged on goat wagon, pistols holstered, shotgun staged on table 3.
When ready say the line "Fill the bag full of money" at the beep set money bag on wagon and retrive rifle. Shoot the three rifle targets with two Nevada sweeps starting from either end, make rifle safe and take money bag to table 2. With pistols shoot two Nevada sweeps on three targets from either end, holster, grab money bag and take it to table 3. With shotgun knockdown the four targets. Move to unloading table

If all you had was one pistol you could shoot the pistol targets five times, ten if you want to do a reload, then go to the unloading table.  The point is yer gonna miss out on the ACTION part of cowboy action, and not alota rounds down range. Sorta like going to play baseball but all you want to do is swing the bat, no fielding, no running the bases, just try to hit the ball when it's your turn. But as has been pointed out many times if that's all you want to do by all means show up and shoot. You will be offered a bunch of guns to shoot the entire match, that's just the way we are. But you'll never find out untill you actually go to a match.
  There is another game more suited to one pistol, or one pistol and a rifle. It's the Steel Challenge, and they have a cowboy SA category, alot more rounds down range for the time and effort. I've been planning to set up a local match with our cowboy targets, pistol targets are one distance, then rifle is shot further back. You shoot each stage five times with the worst score thrown out, best average of the four rounds. Good Luck
Steel Challenge

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Marshal Deadwood]

Two Step..........maybe SASS really isn't the game for everyone. But, the ones that do it,,enjoy it, have no complaints with it,,,and see no reason to change it. Most clubs will bend over backwards to help accommodate,,and what MORE can one ask ?

After a certain point, it does seem the argument is merely for the sake of the argument. I'm about as far from one of the 'big boys' as you can get,,,,just an average ol' guy with the cowboy spirit trying to  have a little fun.......but I like SASS as is. And, no, I don't have enough guns cause I'm wealthy , I just have different priorities than some.  And, my firearms are a priority to me,,, I've never regretted one penny spent on the shooting sports.

The logic you present is akin to asking the Golf sports to have a 20 yards range so more folks could buy  just one club and be able to afford to play.  Were I to become enamored with the idea of 'golfing', I'd just cowboy up and try to afford the tools of the trade. I might even come to the conclusion before I spent penny one,,that 'golf' would just not be my game,,not be feasible to do, and pass on it.

In any event, I'd hope the last thing I would do it attack the sport that others enjoy in an effort for it to accommodate my personal desires.

Just sayin'............no disrespect intended.

Deadwood

[Tall Dark Slim]

Two Step..........maybe SASS really isn't the game for everyone. But, the ones that do it,,enjoy it, have no complaints with it,,,and see no reason to change it. Most clubs will bend over backwards to help accommodate,,and what MORE can one ask ?

After a certain point, it does seem the argument is merely for the sake of the argument. I'm about as far from one of the 'big boys' as you can get,,,,just an average ol' guy with the cowboy spirit trying to  have a little fun.......but I like SASS as is. And, no, I don't have enough guns cause I'm wealthy , I just have different priorities than some.  And, my firearms are a priority to me,,, I've never regretted one penny spent on the shooting sports.

Spot on! I've been overly accommodated by folks I didn't know. Apparently every CAS event is full of friends I haven't met yet.  I find the cowboy group very cool. 
I've had equipment failures/issues which seemed like nothing more than an opportunity for someone to thrust some awesome replacement and ammunition at me with a grin and a "don't worry about it."
The only thing I'm really serious about changing in this sport is the number of people I get to meet and share my equipment with.  If I have one more '97 or '73 Codymatic offered to me in a pinch I might be spoiled away from other sports for good. Seriously though: Is there a Cody rifle in every other gun cart? Mine is coming soon. 

[Camille Eonich]

   That's just the way it is Tall.

[Danny Bear Claw]

Ummm...  more guns = more fun.   

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I don't see the need to have 4 guns in order to play gunslinger.

Two Step, I am with you on this statement:  I also see no need for four guns, three guns or even two guns to play "Gunslinger".

I have total respect for SASS and NCOWS.  What I do not have first and foremost is the money needed to play the game.  If I come into the lottery, then I will play.  I also have a couple of physical impairments that make the speed of movement from station to station hard, but would play in spite of that.

Now having said all of that - my answer was not to find fault with SASS or NCOWS, it was to look at the word "Gunslinger" or "Gunfighter" and low and behold, there was the answer for me - It required ...
1 gun
1belt
1 holster
accuracy and speed.
It is the Cowboy Fast Draw Association.

Also I am a member in good standing of GAF, if and when there is an active group in my area, I will join in the "Scout" category.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Ummm...  more guns = more fun.   

You are correct sir! Fun takes on a new meaning when they start hiccuping.

To the Two's: Let me know you're going to show up to a match near me and you can share my equipment and ammo. Although you'll probably have to fight your way through a sea of other offerred Codys and '97s to get there. I'll bet you could share others' equipment long term for nothing but the ammo cost. These folks are ridiculously generous compared to the high speed 3 gun and pistol sports. Even there I found no trouble getting into a decent crowd.  I guess the important thing to do is be happy and if you can't be happy try to mitigate the effect your unhappiness has on those around you. This is my free time spent reloading, maintaining, practicing, and going to the matches to hhang out with these people and I enjoy every second of it. Leaving the match is like pulling a boot out of the mud: a long hard effort. Seems like I always have one more person to talk to about their match or kit.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

You are correct sir! Fun takes on a new meaning when they start hiccuping.

To the Two's: Let me know you're going to show up to a match near me and you can share my equipment and ammo. Although you'll probably have to fight your way through a sea of other offered Cody s and '97s to get there.

TDS, this is a really generous offer, one that I have experienced with the local groups as well. 

I might have phrased my stand poorly.

My feeling is that each group has it's own make up and be it physical or financial, there is a shooting group out there that fits a persons agenda, there is little or no need for groups to change to fit the individual.