Just Wondering S&W 38 Topbreak * * * UPDATE * * *

[WV Scrounger]

Well....I know it aint PC...But does anyone have any experience using the HK 36 5 shot speedloader in a 5 shot S&W MOD 2 OR 3    .38 calibre Topbreak?  is the spacing correct for these old smokers ?

[Books OToole]

My .44 Mag./Special speed loaders work nicely with .44 Russians for my S & W DA .44.

Books

[WV Scrounger]

Thanks for the input...so I guess there is a very good chance that the smaller 38's will also work.  I bought one lastnight online and will soon find out first hand.

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[Books OToole]

Thanks for the input...so I guess there is a very good chance that the smaller 38's will also work.  I bought one lastnight online and will soon find out first hand.

I am not sure that the .38 S & W rounds will fit in a .38 Special speed loader.  Keep us posted on whether they work or not.

Books

[Shotgun Franklin]

I carried speed loaders at work for years. IMO, there's enough wiggle room built in for it to work but you post and let us know for sure.

[WV Scrounger]

Well...I just rechecked the auction and the speedloader is supposed to be for .38/.357   . When I read that I had S&W 38 on my mind....I totally forgot about .38 special.......Gonna check the casing diameter on both to see how differnt they are....
 38 S&W  RIM DIA .433
               Base Dia .386

 38 Spec  Rim Dia .439
               Base Dia .376

 So the 38 spc has a bigger rim and a small base,   I have never owned a speedloader but would guess that it holds the case by the rim...... the 38 spec is . 01 bigger than the 38 S&W .   NOT MUCH DIFFERNCE !! Maybe it will work   ! ! ! !
if not I am only out $8 bucks.  if it does work I will need to buy more of them .   time shall tell.

[St. George]

You're buying a K-Frame speedloader.

The one you were thinking of is for a much smaller J-Frame - and that frame is larger than the earlier I-Frame, which is slightly closer to what you want for a top-break.

If you need a speedloader, and plan on needing several - you'd be well advised to lay in a supply of spare S&W parts, since these revolvers weren't designed for rapid fire.

Scouts Out!

[WV Scrounger]

Thanks St George....I do know from reading your posts that you are very knowledgeable. !  I do not know the nomenclature of the S&W frame letters....The ad for the speedloader said 5 shot J frame...I then compared my S&W 1906 HAMMERLESS cylinder to the size of the cylinder on the 2nd model DA 1882 and they bothe looked the same and both held 5 shots....
   I ran accross a forum where a gent described the S&W FRAME SIZES as:
Well, I'll dive into this one..........

J frame = Smaller; Lightweight; Holds 5 rounds .38; Shorter Barrel; Hammerless pocket gun configurations available.

K frame = Standard size; A bit heavier; Holds 6 rounds .38.

L frame = Beefier in size than the K frame, sort of an intermediate firearm between the K and N frame, designed to stand up to repeated use of .357 mag ammo; Options include 6 or 7 rounds .38/.357 (Model 686).

N frame = Large frame designed for the .44 mag; Heavy, although an aluminum/titanium model exists and 3" snubbies are available (Model 629).

X frame = Really big; Really heavy; Shoots the .500 S&W Magnum............................................................................................
 SO..( I now think I see the problem...which is that in my original post I did not clarify that my S&W is a Double action...so I guess you thouhgt I was talking about a spur trigger???)
 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The J frame was originally designed as a 32 caliber revolver. A J frame cylinder will hold six 32 caliber rounds. But it is too small for six 38 caliber rounds. So when chambered for 38 it can only hold five rounds. The model 36, Chief's Special is a classic 5 shot J frame 38. The J frame actually came first, about four years before the K frame.







The K frame was developed as a 38 caliber revolver. The cylinder is just the right size for six 38 caliber chambers. These days Smith calls the K frame their 'medium' sized frame, but since 1899 it has been the standard size for a six shot S&W 38 caliber revolver.

A couple of K frame Smiths. A Military and Police at the top, a Model 10 at the bottom. Basically the same gun, but in 1957 S&W went over to model numbers rather than names, so the M&P became the Model 10.







The N frame was developed in 1908 for the 44 Special cartridge, not the 44 Magnum. The 44 Mag did not appear until 1955. Here is the first N frame gun, the 44 Hand Ejector First Model, popularly known as the Triple Lock.







The N frame was also used in 1917 for the Model 1917, chambered for 45 ACP.







In 1955 when the 44 Magnum cartridge was developed, the 44 Magnum revolver, later known as the Model 29, was built on the N frame.

The N frame was also used for the early 357 Magnum revolvers in 1935 because a K sized cylinder could not take the pressure of the 357 Magnum round. So the larger N sized cylinder was used with 357 magnum chambers, leaving more metal surrounding the chambers than would have been possible with a K frame.

Here is a Model 28, built on the N frame. It is a direct decendent of the original 357 Mag revolvers, also built on the N frame.







By the 1960s metalurgy had advanced enough that it was possible to build a 357 Magnum revolver on the K frame. The first K frame 357 Mag was the Modlel 19.







Here is a photo comparing the cylinders of a K frame 357 Magnum and an N frame 357 Magnum.  The revolver on the left is my K frame Model 19, the revolver on the right is my N frame Model 27. You can see how much more meat there is around the chambers in the N frame revolver.







I'll do some measurements for you if you like, comparing a J frame cylinder do a Number Two 38 S&W Top Break cylinder. I'll see if I can take some photos too.

[WV Scrounger]

Driftwood...if you can do some measurements of a J frame and then compare to a mod 2 double action S&W topbreak that would answer the question at hand !   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have a Victory model in .38-200, same as .38 S&W except loaded hot.  A standard .38Spl speed loader fits the revolver, of course, but the rounds just "sort-of" fit in the speed loader.

As well as measuring your break top, take some cases with you and try out a J-frame speedloader for cartridge fit. It should be close, but check if the cigar is a smoke.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here are a few photos.

First, a comparison of a couple of 38 Top Breaks and the J frame Model 36 for overall size comparison. Even though the modern gun has a shorter barrel, it is slightly heavier than the two Top Breaks.







Here is a comparison of the modern cylinder and the cylinder from the Hammerless Safety Model.






And last here is a comparison of the two cylinders from the rear. The modern cylinder is on the right. Dimensionally they are very close. I measured both Top Break cylinders and they were so close I have only shown one. The diameter of the Top Break cylinder is 1.305. Chambers are .387 in diameter. Chamber wall thickness to the outside of the cylinder is .058.

The modern cylinder diameter is 1.309. Chamber diameter is .382 because the 38 Special case is slightly smaller in diameter than the 38 S&W. Chamber wall thickness to the outside of the cylinder is .050.

I measured chamber diameter with a caliper, not the most accurate way to do so. But taking all these numbers into account, the imaginary circle that the chambers are centered on for the Top Break is 1.0535 in diameter. The imaginary circle that the chambers are centered on for the modern cylinder is 1.068 in diameter. So the modern gun has the chambers centered on a circle about .015 larger in diameter than the Top Break. Give or take a few thousandths for my measurement technique.



Bottom line is, as Sir Charles has already said, you can probably use the J frame speed loader. Buy one and try it.

However I agree with St George that these guns were not designed for Smokeless Powder, they were designed for Black Powder. Chances are if you have enough speed loaders to shoot lots of Smokeless loads through one, you will probably stretch the frame.

[WV Scrounger]

Driftwood... Thanks for the indepth comparison !  It Does Look like a J frame speedloader will work with my old 1882 S&W TOPBREAK !!!!   and my newer S&W 1907 TOPBREAK HAMMERLESS  !!!
  I reload and make up black powder rounds for the 1882 and make smokelss rounds for the 1907....wouldnt Think of shootin smokeless in the '82 even at drastically reduced loads....it eats Goex only.

   1882  2nd mod S&W .38

1907 S&W .38

  Many thanks for all who replied to my origin al question !  ...I'm sorry we had to digress to the smokeless realm for a bit in order to fully discuss the topic.....please excuse....

[WV Scrounger]

Well.. the HKS 36-A Speedloader arrived today...it does infact say .38 Spec on front of the package...I tried it in the 1880 mod 2
S&W .38 topbreak and it Works like a charm !!! also in the Iver johnson .38 and also in the S&W 1906 SNUBNOSE  !!!!!
  gonna get a few more of these !!!!

[Mossyrock]

Mr. Scrounger,

As someone who is coming into the S&W top-break .38s late in the game, any details you could provide on your BP load would be greatly appreciated.  Gracias!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Mr. Scrounger,

As someone who is coming into the S&W top-break .38s late in the game, any details you could provide on your BP load would be greatly appreciated.  Gracias!

Same as always.  Put enough FFFg into the case to allow a bit of compression when seating a bullet with BP compatible lube.

[WV Scrounger]

Mossyrock....its just as Mr Black just stated....it's so simple you cant go wrong.