Legality of Shoulder Stock on an 1860 Cartridge Conversion

[Thai Fighter]

I've got the 1860s with shoulder stock screws mounted on them.  I think I know the answer to this, but need to check and thought I'd throw this to the group too.  I'm thinking that if I had a shoulder stock in the house with these guns I could most likely get hit for owning a short barreled rifle (legally) since they are cartridge firing pistols/or 7-inch barrled rifles when the shoulder stock is mounted?  Wrong?

[StrawHat]

Sounds like the correct assumption to me.  And not a legal battle for which I would like to be the poster boy.  I personally never saw the usefulness of a shoulder stock so for me it is a non issue. 

[Deadeye Don]

Oh, I don't know.  You may be over thinking this.  Perhaps if you were walking down the street past an ATF office carrying your 1860 conversion with shoulder stock, they might take exception. 

Shoulder stocks on an 1860 is a hoot to shoot.

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[Mogorilla]

I don't have a conversion cylinder on my 1860, but I have a shoulder stock for it and it also works on my 1858 Buffalo Remington.   I have shot mine with several police officers, they thought it a hoot.   (Everyone wants to be Lee Van Cleef when holding it).   None of the officers mentioned a thing about it being illegal, but it being Cap and Ball does take a lot of wind out of their sails.   I can tell you they are a blast to shoot.  The 1860 with the shoulder stock is as accurate as my Henry Rifle at 50 yards and the 1858 is a tack driver.  Not sure with the 12 inch barrel on the Remington if it would be illegal or not.  It is about as long as those survival rifles that take down and store in the rifle stock. 

[Raven]

If you have a cap and ball pistol for it ....No Problem
Show up at the range with the conversion and shoulder stock you may/will have issues depending on who's there.

If you want to shoot the conversion with the shoulder stock .... just pay the $200 Tax!

Raven

[Coffinmaker]

+ 1.  If you attach a shoulder stock to a cartridge firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches, you may wind up in a Federal Bastille.  At the least, a felony firearms conviction and LARGE fine.  Not to mention loss of firearms privileges ........ FOREVER.

Don't!!!  Or as Raven suggests, PAY THE TAX!!

Coffinmaker

[Shotgun Franklin]

You could remove all doubt by asking ATF for a written answer to your question.
Be sure and include that you are asking, that you have not yet done this.
Get the answer in writing or it ain't worth nothing.

[Thai Fighter]

No risk of any penalties here.  I don't own a shoulder stock, but all my 1860s, cap & ball and cartridge conversion variety have the shoulder stock bolts.  The question inevitably arose in my head when I was rearranging my collection the other day.  Thanks all.

[C. Note]

There is more than just paying the tax. The conversion revolver will have to be registered as the NFA item, not the stock. What if you own both 1860 cap/ball guns and a conversion, yet never intend to use the stock on the conversion? You'd have to Form 1 the conversion and it will FOREVER be an NFA gun.........even if you sell off the shoulder stock and caplock revolver(s).

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Fellas,

I got rid of my Dragoon's shoulder stock before it was converted. I didn't want the potential problems. As to asking the ATF for a decision in writing or other wise, I go by the old adage: "You don't wake up a snake to kill it."

Rev. Chase

[Coffinmaker]

  HEY!!  WOW!! 

NECROMANCY!!  But what the heck, I'll chime in "again."  Under BATFE rules and regs, And the NFA, Percussion Handguns are NOT considered firearms.  Attach a Shoulder Stock to one, still not a "firearm" and is unregulated.

When converting a Percussion revolver to shoot suppositories, when you cut that cartridge channel thru the recoil shield, you have "manufactured" a "Firearm" which is perfectly legal for your own use.  Attach a shoulder stock to it, and you have now manufactured a Short Barrel Rifle.  VERRY VERY NOT LEGAL.  GREY AREA - When using an R&D two piece Suppository cylinder, you will have an SBR while the cylinder is in the gun.  NOT LEGAL.  With the suppository cylinder removed, not a firearm.

DISCLAMER:  Since I retired and stopped practicing the Dark Arts, I haven't been in "The Books."  I doubt seriously the NFA nor BATFE has changed.  BATFE is not a Bear you want to poke.  BATFE does NOT have a sense of humor.

People are Still Hazardous to Yer Health

[C. Note]

Yeah......that is all understood.

So......and I am certain that the answers to all the "What ifs" will be the same.

1) If you have an original cased 1860 Army including an original shoulder stock and a modern full cartridge conversion, the MCC must
still be Formed 1?

2) And it is not just the Form 1 and stamp......the gun must be registered and engraved and even if you sell off your percussion shoulder stock set up (Stock and pistols), the MCC will be an NFA SBR FOR LIFE! If you wanted to take yourconversion to an out of state match, you'd need permission from the ATF!

[Coffinmaker]

  C Note 

We be taxing my weak and feeble memory here, but:

YES and YES.

The ONLY get-around I remember is the UNMODIFIED Cap Gun, a Shoulder Stock, and a two piece R & D type cylinder.  The R & D cylinder does not a conversion make as the cylinder is considered by BATFE to be a "Part" only.  Separate from the gun, it has no significance.  However, convolutedly, you drop that cylinder in the Cap Gun and attach the Shoulder Stock, you have an SBR.  DO NOT DO IT!!

Let Us be SAFE out There

[C. Note]

I would never attach the shoulder stock to a converted revolver, but AM concerned about the "Constructive Possession"
aspect of this......IE: having the stock in proximity......same room, same house....to the revolver.

Here's a possibility.........

Obtain a replacement back strap that does NOT have the slot for the shoulder stock and install it onto the converted revolver or
have the slot on a replacement filled in, filled smooth then reblued. That way, the stock cannot be attached to the gun!!!

But then, ATF, being ATF would surmise that I could swap out the backstraps from my percussion revolvers, just to get an arrest.
JFC!!!!

Here is ATF's own confusing response:



Opinions/Comments?

[Thai Fighter]

Thanks for the reply. I've pretty much solved the issue by NOT having a shoulder stock in the collection at all.

[C. Note]

Do you disagree that not being able to attach the stock would take the pistol out of NFA perview.

[45 Dragoon]

I'm thinking you can "possibility"  yourself out of anything!!!
You don't need recoil shield cutouts  to attach a stock!! Just a Navy "stock" hammer screw with ( accompanying extended nut) will allow you to forgo any "recoil shield cut for stock" frames. 
I guess anybody that owns a cap gun should be scrutinized to the hilt because of "might do's"!!!!
Holy Cow!!!

Mike

[Coffinmaker]

It's possible to go down the Block, Round the Corner and Thru town on this one if one is willing to be "Caught Out" by BATFE. 

Bottom Line.  The revolver frame is what makes a "Fire Arm."  When the Recoil Shield has been cut for Cartridges, it is now, in no uncertain terms, a FIRE ARM.  IF it is a Cap Gun frame, with the attachments for a Shoulder Stock, and should you possess a Shoulder Stock, you ARE in violation whether or not it is assembled.  Once the alteration is complete, the gun now falls under NFA prevue FOREVER.  If you do not possess a Shoulder Stock, it's just a cartridge revolver.  If you DO possess a shoulder stock, it's a Short Barrel Rifle and you have a real serious problem whether the stock is attached or not.  If you own a permanently converted Percussion Revolver, DO NOT possess a Shoulder Stock.  Simple.  You can own either one but not both at the same time.  There is no "But What If."

These rules and regulation MUST be understood exactly AS WRITTEN.  There is NO possibility of "interpretation."

[C. Note]

By ATF "interpretation".......made by THEM, in THEIR favor, to put US in prison.......every shoulder stock cut percussion revolver should be registered as NFA SBR, because you MIGHT buy a Howell Conversion cylinder for it......you MIGHT have a full conversion done to it. And if the cuts aren't even made and all you need is a Navy stock and the hammer pin, well, then, you MIGHT just do that, too.

Yeah, yeah......I understand completely.

They just assume criminal intent.

Buy, Hey......Director Littledick said, as far as the brace......you can just separate them. [sarcasm]

Oh......and as I was reading about it, there is more than just the Form 1 and a tax stamp......the item must be ENGRAVED, with
whatever information the rule says.

[C. Note]

The subject is pistol braces but the Constructive Possession concept is discussed,
which does pertain to the topic of this thread.