Stoeger/Uberti SAA problem

[Cliff Fendley]

I was hoping someone here could point me to the right person for parts or assistance correcting this gun.

I recently bought this gun used although it looks to have been hardly ever fired, my local gun shop sold it new and got it back on a trade later. We figured with it's pristine condition the first owner hardly fired it because of the cost of 44-40 ammo but after shooting it yesterday I've found it has a problem so who knows.

It does not fire every round. sometimes will misfire as many as 3 out of 5 and sometimes they all fire.

They will usually always fire the second time and if not they have always fired after the third hit.

It is not the same chamber doing it, all have given problems.

Winchester primers, the same ammo fires fine in every other gun I've tried. This is the same loads I've used for all my other guns.

The head space seems fine.

Some potential problems I've noticed:

The primers are not being hit dead center but seems the same on all chambers.

The firing pin on this gun does not leave a nice rounded dent in the primer. This is the only Colt clone I own so I don't know if this is normal or not. I just know my Rugers and my rifles all leave a nice rounded dent. The firing pin on the problem gun has almost a tiny concaved end to the firing pin so it leaves a dent with a little hump in the middle.

The one thing that is obvious is on the first misfire of a round the primer is not dented as deep. You can see this fairly obvious but after the round fires the next try it is deeper like it should be.

It seems obvious to me it's not hitting the primers hard enough during the misfires, whether it's not consistent or whether some primers have harder anvils and it's just not hitting hard enough to compensate for those.

Once they fire they are deeper hit than my Rugers so the hammer firing pin travel and or headspace isn't the problem.

This might be my imagination but the times I barely feather/squeeze the trigger it seems to most likely happen but if I slap the trigger it seems more likely to fire. When it does misfire it feels like the hammer doesn't hit very hard, obviously I can't tell the times it fires so don't know if the hammer falls consistent or not. I have had the grips off and checked cleaned/oiled made sure the roller was working on the hammer and such but that made no difference.

[Pettifogger]

Firing pin indentation on the primer AFTER the round fires really doesn't tell you much.  Once the round fires everything sets back against the recoil shield and the primer will form around the firing pin.  Not much to go on as far as the potential problem until the last paragraph.  What you are describing are the symptoms of worn or improper sear angles.  When you squeeze the trigger it can hit the half-cock or safety notches and slow the hammer fall and cause misfires.  When you jerk it, it clears the notches.  Also, how strong is the hammer spring?  Did someone change it?  Is the hammer pull very light?

[Cliff Fendley]

That makes sense on the indentation.

My first though was a week hammer spring but the hammer pull feels fairly normal although I don't know exactly how or what it should be. The gun does have a light trigger, 20oz.

I don't know if anyone has altered it but if they did they did a superb job on not scratching the screws or anything because it looks like a new in the box gun. It just doesn't show wear like it has been shot at all so I would doubt worn parts, more likely either modified or defective parts would be my guess.

I just went out and shot it again and almost sure now what your saying could be the problem because it obviously happens more when the trigger barely squeezed off and when barely squeezing it off on a snap cap I can feel the trigger bounce when the hammer falls. If I hold the trigger steady and let the hammer come down easy with my hand I can certainly feel it rubbing the trigger after the sear releases. I don't think I'm letting the trigger come back forward.

What is your suggestion to correct this, aftermarket or factory parts or person? I've worked on a bunch of my own guns before but never a SAA.

I'll go either way, do it myself with instruction and the right parts or send it out. I want to make it right within reason. This is a sweet gun and it shoots very nice and accurate when if fires although it does makes me appreciate the Rugers, never had to work on them to make them work just to make them work better Only had one other Colt, it was a real Colt and it had problems too but that was after a few hundred rounds.

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[Pettifogger]

First thing you have to do is take it apart and carefully examine the parts.  Italian steel tends to be soft in the middle and glass hard on the outside.  If the surface hardening is done correctly, the parts last a long time.  If the surface hardening is to thin or someone has tried to do an action job, once it is worn through the soft inner surfaces go bad quickly.  You can get new parts from VTI.  If you decide to resurface the old parts or change the sear angles make sure to re-harden the parts or they won't last long.

http://www.vtigunparts.com/

[Fox Creek Kid]

...It does not fire every round. sometimes will misfire as many as 3 out of 5 and sometimes they all fire.

They will usually always fire the second time and if not they have always fired after the third hit....


Some potential problems I've noticed:

The primers are not being hit dead center but seems the same on all chambers...

1.  Are you firing two handed fast & furious?

2.  If you know how to take it apart look at the bolt spring and see if it is one of those silly aftermarket piano wire ones.


Sounds like over rotation problems. Now to determine if it is you or the gun.

[Cliff Fendley]

It's not an over rotation problem, it happens worse when firing slow.

Thanks for the link Pettifogger. I will ease it apart when I get time and examine. The trigger breaks clean and light but there is a ton of creep in it. I'm curious to see if anything looks altered.

If I understand right if someone removed too much from the sear or it is worn it will let the hammer fall too quick and the other notches will hit. Guess I'll be able to tell more about it once I can see it.

[Major 2]

Had a USFA, that was ever so slightly off center with the hammer. The hammer would rub the frame noted by scratches on the hammer.... slow the hammer fall and caused light taps.
The fix was Longhunters  7% Hammer side taper and Jewel finish

[Cliff Fendley]

I thought about that too because the hammer is rubbing a little more on the left side. The scratches are noticeable now that I've shot it about 50 rounds (another reason I think the gun had not even been shot when I got it). Still they are not to the point the looks like it's rubbing any worse than I've seen on other guns.

Since I've always wanted a tricked out gun and not real sure of the problem I'm beginning to think this one is a good candidate to send to someone like longhunter and just have it all done.

[Major 2]

Longhunter did the action job...and threw in the 7% hammer job as a perk....
It's a sweet shooter now, best $125 I've spent on a gun.

[cheatin charlie]

When you get the pistol apart here is something to check.  Some of the older pietta C&B have the wrong geometry
in the hammers.  Here is how to check.  Get a drill bit the same size as the hole in the hammer and clamp it in a vice
shank up.  Place hammer over drill bit and using anythingto duplicate the trigger such as a scale hole it so that when
you rotate the hammer it just clears the full cock notch.  Hold it from moving then rotate the hammer as if were going
fire and see if the pointer is hitting the any of the other notches.  On some I have had to take some off the hammer
and recut the half cock notch so the trigger did not hit.  When you pull the trigger hard it moves away from the hammer
and clears but when you gently squease the trigger it gets hit with the half cock.  If you do not fix it the tip of the
trigger will get beat up or broken off.  Been there done that.

[Montana Slim]

I thought about that too because the hammer is rubbing a little more on the left side. The scratches are noticeable now that I've shot it about 50 rounds (another reason I think the gun had not even been shot when I got it). Still they are not to the point the looks like it's rubbing any worse than I've seen on other guns.

I think this is a major piece to the puzzle. If the hammer rubs on the frame as it fall, this robs energy. Before a new (to me) revolver gets fired, I cycle it a few times....then take it all apart & look for light rub marks, scratches etc...then carefully stone the frame at the points its rubbing. Generally, I smoothly stone the entire hammer cutout. I also use the store to carefully remove sharp edges, tiny burrs. I also work the hammer & trigger too...but I don't recommend to others unles they're well read or experienced at it.

Check the firing-block thingy, too (in the hammer)...make sure it is fully retracted & isn't hung-up due to burrs or such. I assume your Uberti has one.

Next I'd look at the mainspring carefully, has it been replaced with a lightened one? If so, I'd probably tweak-it just a bit stiffer before assembly....but you can always adjust/replace this item separately.

When you have this borderline situation, it should only take a small change to get it straightened out.

Regards,
Slim

[Cliff Fendley]

Thanks for the comments, I haven't had the chance to look at it again but will check these things. When I had the grips off the main spring looks stock and not ground or filed on. The hammer does slightly rub but it's down toward the bottom and not really that bad for it to be the whole cause.

Does the main spring effect the trigger pull weight on these? This think only has a 20oz trigger which seems light but still heavier than a friend of mines Evil Roy which I think is way too light.

Is there a way of checking the hammer pull weight and if so what should it be. I'm going to shoot it some more before I take it apart to see if it will fail to fire when yanking the trigger or if it's only when squeezed easy. I'm still thinking it only did it when I squeezed the trigger very slow and easy taking close aim at the target. I just want to double check that to be sure.

[Cliff Fendley]

What would be the best spring to put in it? The hammer pull seems a little light to the point I'm almost ready to just throw another of those in it unless I see something else fairly obvious.

[Montana Slim]

Try bending it a bit. Put in a vise with the base (near screw hole) completely covered by the jaws.
Then tap a bit (trying as if to straighten out the curve) with a plastic or rubber faced mallet. The spring is more ductile than one would think. Worst case scenario is that it doesn't make an improvement & you need a new spring.

I keep an assortment of C&B springs in stock...I'd probably start with one for a C&B 1851 & smooth it up, shape it down to my preferred weight. I don't use a scale or measure the weight...just by feel.

Slim

[Cliff Fendley]

OK fellas, I finally got around to taking this gun apart and it is doing exactly what cheatin charlie said. When you barely move the trigger to the point it breaks when you let the hammer down it barely bumps the half cock but it hits the hammer safety notch really bad.

I can stone at the half cock and make it clear and still lock in it safely but I feel like if I remove enough from the hammer safety notch to make it clear then the safety plunger may keep it from engaging that notch at all.

I could probably overcome the problem by stiffening the main spring but it's just going to beat the trigger up. It's already buggered up pretty good now but the sear still locks up good when you cock the gun.

Suggestions? Am I going to have to replace the hammer?

I'm just one that likes to tinker and the satisfaction of fixing things myself or I would have taken it somewhere.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Maybe your problem is firing pin protrusion. Have you measured it? It is supposed to be 0.056" max. theoretically. That may be the reason that sometimes some rounds go off & sometimes not due to case rim variances as well as primer depth variances. Also, use a factory mainspring to help ascertain this and not a lightened one.

[Cliff Fendley]

That's not it, the gun will fire every time if you fire fast slapping the trigger. When you "squeeze" off a round the safety notch on the hammer is hitting the trigger and slowing/stoping the hammer fall. You can even feel it through your trigger finger.

It's very obvious this is the problem, bending or getting a heavier main spring may overcome it but I can't believe this is right for the safety notch to be hitting/catching on the trigger as the hammer falls.

If it didn't have that plunger in the safety notch I would file it back and redo the notch. In Brownells schematic the USFA and Colt doesn't show that plunger and spring in the hammer.

[Pettifogger]

You've been messing with this a while now and what you are describing is a classic case of worn sear surfaces.  With due respect to a previous poster, this is not a Pietta cap and ball and I have never seen a Uberti hammer with the notches so far off they cause the problem you are having.  (Although anything is possible.)  Unless you have a hammer/trigger gauge where the hammer and trigger pins are precisely located you can't tell anyway.  Clamping a drill bit in a vise and eyeballing the trigger position ain't gonna do it.  Your 20 oz trigger pull and having to "slap" the trigger (a very imprecise term) indicate worn sear surfaces.  Single actions have to have positive angle on the sear surfaces. That way when you pull the trigger the positive angle causes the trigger  (one-half of the sear surfaces) to disengage cleanly and the tip of the trigger misses the half and safety notches.  When the sear surfaces wear and you start getting a light trigger pull it means the surfaces have gone negative.  Instead of the hammer and trigger breaking cleanly when you pull the trigger they push themselves apart and you get the problem you are having.  You CAN get a trigger pull of 20 ozs or less IF the gun is properly tuned by someone that knows what they are doing.  That is not your problem, your gun was apparently not tuned by a single action smith or you wouldn't be having the problem.  You need to reshape and reharden your sear surfaces (one or both can be worn) or buy new parts.  Uberti surface hardens their steel and once the surface hardening is worn through you can reshape the sear, but it will just wear again unless rehardened.  If you want to continue playing around you can remove the safety plunger and other parts in the hammer.  Most Ubertis don't have the plunger.  It was put in there to meet U.S. import requirements and Uberti, Pietta, and others have simply gone to a base pin with two grooves and eliminated messing with the hammers.   If you want to fix the problem you need to correct the sear angles.

Here's a hammer/sear gauge.  The hole is where the two surfaces meet.  You can shine a light through the rear to get a really good look at the sear engagement.

[Cliff Fendley]

Pettifogger, OK, update, I finally got tired of SAA parts laying on my bench and fixed it. Was able to remove enough on the safety notch to clear the trigger as the hammer falls. This gun is obviously almost brand new, must have come from the factory this way and the trigger got messed up hitting the safety notch.

You were right the sear angle had gone negative (or more neutral actually). That's where my trigger creep was coming from. Angle on the hammer was still perfect but I had to redo the trigger to get a positive angle back on it since it had gotten beat up pretty bad.

I do have a question on the trigger now. I feel like it needs to be re hardened but it's such a small piece. Should I just heat the very end where the work was done or let the heat bleed back a way to make sure it's heated good toward the end. I was hoping I could heat the very tip end (sear area) until it's red and dip it in Kasenit. Sorry if this sounds dumb but I've never hardened anything this small. The trigger is blued I hate to mess that up if I can help it.

Thanks in advance

[Pettifogger]

That's what I would do.  Heat the tip till red and use the Kasenite.  Should harden it enough to prevent rapid wear.