Taylor's 44-40 Remington Conversions

[PJ Hardtack]

The first of two Taylor's Uberti-made 44-40 conversions arrived today. T'other was inadvertently shipped to an old address .....

First impression out-of-the-box - Wow- what a beautiful gun! Far and away one of the best looking, best finished CAS guns I own.
A little polishing would help the forcing cone. Second impression - This is a big gun! Why? here's some miked measurements:

- the cylinder is slightly larger in diameter than a blued .44 C&B Uberti '63 by .049"
- the top strap is .054" thicker than the C&B
- the barrel thickness ahead of the frame on the C&B mikes .710"; .760" on the 44-40
- barrel thickness at the muzzle of the C&B mikes .648"; .706 on the 44-40
- the .44 C&B weighs 2 lbs. 8 oz.; the 44-40 2 lbs 13 oz. on a kitchen scale

The measurements account for the weight difference along with the smaller diameter bore of the 44-40 at .429 (according to Taylor's). Also the thick 'recoil shield' and loading gate of the 44-40.
The bad news - the 44-40 won't fit my David Carrico 'Slim Jim' holsters! Looks like I need new leather.

[Major 2]

Hold the phone... mine does...  same gun, except mines 45 Colt same SJ holster Dave made for me.

I did a bit of wet molding and voila

[PJ Hardtack]

Major 2

OK - so whadja do to 'wet mold' your holster? Wet the leather, wrap the gun in plastic and jam it in? Sounds like I'm talkin' about somethin' else, don't it?

[Advertising]

[Major 2]

That's about it ... sprayed the gun with WD40 and Saran wrapped the Gun
used warm water ,wet well but not soaked.. not scalding and worked the gun in ( did not jam )
I pulled it part way back out and worked it back a time or 3, and kinda molded or kneaded the holster to the gun
Then let it sit is cool dry place ( not sunlight )
As the leather dries it takes a set, you can pull the gun in about 3-4 hours , it will be set.
When it's fully dry use Skidmore's or similar inside to out...

[PJ Hardtack]

I have the current issue of "Guns of the Old West" with a review on the Uberti Remington conversions. In the back of my mind, I felt that I had seen an earlier article in GOTOW and sho' 'nuff - I found it in the fall 2007 issue.
The reason that the cylinder mikes larger at .046" larger (mine at .049" with a digital micrometer) than a C&B .44 is that Uberti wanted to chamber 6 rds in the cylinder without having to off-set the chambers like the R&D conversion. That meant a larger diameter cylinder and corresponding larger opening in the frame. They beefed up the top strap accordingly.

So, it ought not to come as a surprise that my 44-40s will not fit in my Remington .44 C&B holsters. The increase in dimensions along with the added bulk of the ejector rod & housing makes it impossible. I don't think that holster makers have caught up with this fact as yet.

[Holden A. Grudge]

I shoot Cimarron 1858 conversions in .38 special.  When I got my holsters made I stated the model and found that the conversions (even in .38) are slightly larger in frame and cylindar than the C&B version.  This caused my pistols to sit high and not quite fit the holsters.  I am going to try the wet molding and see how that works out. 

Thus far it hasn't been an issue as I take my pistols, stuff them in a big thick sock and jam them in the holsters overnight before every shoot.  They still ride a little higher than they should but hold tight enough that it hasn't been an issue.

It seems, as stated, the conversions are generaly bigger in frame and cylindar size.  In comparison to my old C&B remmie, I find that I like the grip a lot better on the conversion as it doesn't jam up my fingers behind the trigger guard.

[PJ Hardtack]

H.A.G.

I find the grip on the conversion a little more comfortable as well. I know that guys with big paws hate the grip on the C&B Remmies.
Once when I had a broken middle finger that was slow to heal, I considered hogging out the grip to a larger curve. But I bit the bullet and now I'm glad that I didn't mutilate the gun.
Because these 44-40s are so massive, I think i'm going to step up my loads so that I feel I'm shooting Cowboy' and not 'wimp'.
I haven't fired any BP loads as yet, and I have a feeling the guns are going to like it.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I haven't fired any BP loads as yet, and I have a feeling the guns are going to like it.

Therein lies the "rub" with BP in a '58 design: there is no gas collar (ring) and they become sticky after one cylinder. With a cap 'n ball that's no problem if you remove the cylinder to reload as you can relube. Not so with a ctg. gun. There is a solution, but you have to have the cylinder face machined for a gas collar.  

[PJ Hardtack]

F.C.K.

I take it your opinion is based on actual first hand knowledge and/or experience, and not just the palaver around the corral .....?
But, you've provided the answer to the very question - if and when the cylinder binds, it comes out of the conversions exactly as it does on a C&B Remington.
A few days a go I put some BP 44-40 loads through my '66 carbine. It was brand new brass which I intended to keep separate from my 'many-times-fired' brass smokeless loads. It came out exactly as it went in - bright and shiny due to the wonderful gas seal you get with BP in 44-40 brass.
So, unless there is excessive escape of gas between the cylinder and the barrel, BP fouling ought to be minimal.

It's been a while since I last fired my Remmy .44 C&Bs (a pair & a spare), but I don't recall fouling being that much of a problem. I lube the cylinder arbor with BP lube and it seems to prevent binding.

[PJ Hardtack]

Further to the point .....

I've got two articles from GOTOW with reviews of the Taylor's Remington conversions. Both tested BP loads in 45 Colt as part of the evaluation. Neither reported cylinder binding, something that wouldn't escape comment if it occurred.
Next trip to the range, I'll have the first hand experience to report ......

[Major 2]

I humbly submit an excerpt of Taylor’s & Co. Uberti Factory Gated 1858 Remington .45 Colt Cartridge Conversion
By: Tuolumne Lawman, SASS# 6127 for the Cowboy Chronicle.


AT THE RANGE:
Groups from the 1858 Gated Cartridge Conversion:
I used a traditional two hand hold at about ten meters to do the shooting.  The temperature was cold (below 32 degrees) and windy. 
For this article, I used the following smokeless ammunition from Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills ammunition. I did not have any black powder loads loaded up, so I just used the factory ammo I had on hand.
1)   Black Hills .45 Colt 250 grain.
2)   Black Hills .45 Schofield 230 grain.
3)   Black Hills .45 Schofield 180 grain
The shooting was done at 10 yards, traditional two hand hold.  The 250 grain .45 Colt ammunition from Black Hills printed a group about three inches above point of aim, about centered, with a group that was about two inches in diameter.  The Black hills 230 grain Schofield load group was about two inches above point of aim, centered, and had a two inch group.  Finally, the Black hills 180 grain Schofield ammunition grouped about one inch above point of aim, and about a one and a half inch in diameter group.

I happen to own the very gun in this test, having traded with Bernie some 2 1/2-3 years ago.
I can and have duplicated his shots. I have tested Black Dawg in the same gun.
Black Dawg is BP and the gun enjoys a spritz of Blistoil about the 4th or 5th Cyl full, BP washes away mostly ,and the gun continues as before. I note Black Dawg prints much the same as the 250 grain Black Hills perhaps a tad more open.
Nothing scientific however just my observation.

[Fox Creek Kid]

F.C.K.

I take it your opinion is based on actual first hand knowledge and/or experience, and not just the palaver around the corral .....

So, unless there is excessive escape of gas between the cylinder and the barrel, BP fouling ought to be minimal...

Experience since 1973.    A rifle is no comparison as it is a sealed system whereas with a revolver you get fouling blown out between the chamber mouth & the forcing cone. Some guns run better than others. You simply have to try each one and use LOTS of lube. However, the Remington cylinder pin is small and it does not have spiral grooves like a Colt, hence it holds far less lube. It is far worse on a Remmy '75 as one doesn't need to remove the cylinder to reload naturally.


Another advantage is to use the Big Lube bullets. 

[PJ Hardtack]

My cast bullets are Lyman 200 gr RNPS lubed with SPG. So far, so good. We'll see what happens with a long string.
I checked the Lee site and the 'big lube' bullet is only offered in 45. Read once about using the .45 Lee 'Maxi' ball with HUGE lube grooves. No crimping groove, so you have to crimp over the bullet nose. No problem over a case full of BP.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Experience since 1973.  Wink  A rifle is no comparison as it is a sealed system whereas with a revolver you get fouling blown out between the chamber mouth & the forcing cone. Some guns run better than others. You simply have to try each one and use LOTS of lube. However, the Remington cylinder pin is small and it does not have spiral grooves like a Colt, hence it holds far less lube. It is far worse on a Remmy '75 as one doesn't need to remove the cylinder to reload naturally.

Howdy

Fox Creek Kid's experience is exactly the same as mine. Although I am not quite as experienced as him, I only bought my first Remmie in 1975. The lack of a raised bushing on the front face of the '58 cylinder coupled with the narrow pin is what causes the cylinder to tend to bind. Has nothing to do with how well the cases seal the chambers because you are going to get fouling blasting out of the barrel/cylinder gap no matter how well the chambers seal. I shoot R&D cylinders in my Remmies and their design dictates removing the cylinders for every reload, so it is simple enough to wipe off the front face of the cylinders with a damp rag. That keeps them running through a match. If I don't wipe off the cylinder faces, they will bind up after the second cylinder full. Cutting grooves onto the cylinder pin to retain some SPG or Bore Butter will help, but it is not a complete solution. Also, it goes without saying that you should use a bullet that carries as much lube as possible, like the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman for 44 or the Big Lube Prs or Big Lube J/P 45-200 for 45. The more lube your bullet carries, the softer the fouling will remain.

I am intrigued by your comments about the Taylors conversion cylinders being .049 larger in diameter. Makes perfect sense because the only way R&D could get six 45 Colt rims onto the smaller cylinder without interfering with each other was to angle the chambers out by a bit less than 1/2 degree. Which by the way, does not affect accuracy at all. My Remmies with their R&D cylinders are the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own.

P.S. don't go to Lee for Big Lube bullet molds. There are lots more available than what you see. Lee does not stock them as a regular item, at least they did not used to. They were always a custom item. I happen to know the J/P 45/200 exists because the 'J' stands for Johnson. Check out Dick Dastardly's Big Lube website. Just google Big Lube. He sells the molds, and if you do not cast yourself, he has links to guys who do.

[The Swede]

Hi all! I have a Taylor's Remington New Army Conversion in .44-40 (.44WCF stamped on the barrel  ). I have so far shot only trail boss loads through it. I will be trying some Black Powder loads this coming week. As to the cylinder binding issue I have heard that polishing the base pin helps. Wouldn't a squirt or 2 of moose milk work as well between stages? I am new to Holy Black myself, so I do not have any experience in this area.

As to the revolver... I love it! That big 8 inch barrel gets everyone's attention, as most of the Pards I shoot with use Ruger Vaqueros.
They always joke about me taking all 4 of my long guns to the unloading table after shooting a stage.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I haven't shot one of the Taylor's Conversions yet, but I have handled one. Frankly, polishing the base pin won't hurt, but it ain't gonna buy you much. A squirt of this or that won't hurt neither. On both of my 1858 Remmies I chucked the cylinder pins in my drill press and cut some grooves around the pins. I smear some BP bullet lube in the grooves. The idea is a little bit similar to the helical grooves cut on the arbor of a Colt style C&B. Cuts down on the contact area and holds a little bit of lube. But with the Colt arbor, they are a much larger diameter than the center pin of the Remington, and the helical groove pattern is very tight, so the actual area of surface contact between the cylinder and the arbor has probably been cut in half. That combined with the much greater surface area of the arbor contributes to a Colt rolling much longer without binding than the Remington.

As I say, I have not shot the Taylor's Conversions yet, but their design is not very different than the original '58 C&B design, so I strongly suspect they will have the same binding problems with Black Powder. Your best bet is to use a bullet that carries a huge amount of BP compatible bullet lube, like the Big Lube bullets. But even using Big Lube bullets in my R&D cylinders, I still have to wipe down the cylinder face after every stage.

Please let us know how you make out, I would be very interested to hear.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I took these photos to illustrate what I am talking about. In the top photo, the gun at the top is obviously one of my Remmies, the frame at the bottom is a Peitta copy of the 1860 Colt Army. First, notice the difference in diameters between the Colt arbor and the Remmie pin. Next, notice the difference in the center holes of the cylinders, the cylinder on the left with the huge center hole goes to the Colt. Clearly, the larger diameter of the Colt arbor makes for more surface area to spread any fouling out over than the smaller diameter of the Remmie pin. Then go to the closeup. You can see the helical groove pattern cut into the Colt arbor. You can also see the grooves I cut into my Remmie pin. Yes, they are a little bit crude, but you get the idea. There is much more relief of the contact area on the Colt arbor than there is on my Remmie pin. Why didn't I cut more grooves? Because I was getting worried about weakening the pin too much. Believe it or not, that Remmie pin has been polished. It's just that the tooling marks left behind when it was made were not polished off. Doing so would have reduced its diameter too much. You have to be careful when you are polishing parts that are critical fit parts. Stuffing a little bit of SPG into those grooves will help some, but not very much. There is just too much contact area for the small diameter of the pin.

Now go back to the big photo again. The two bullets pictured are both 45 Caliber Big Lube bullets that are suitable for using in my 45 Caliber R&D conversion cylinder. At the top is the PRS 250 grain bullet, at the bottom is the J/P 45-200 that was specifically designed for this particular Remmie. I wanted a lighter bullet (200 grains) that would not cause as much pounding of recoil so as not to damage the relatively light frame of my Remmie. There is very little metal where the bullet ram pierces the frame. Notice the huge lube grooves on these bullets. That is the best way to keep any cartridge revolver that is shot with Black Powder rolling. When those grooves are filled with a good BP compatible lube like SPG, it keeps any fouling that has gotten someplace it shouldn't be soft, so that it causes less binding.

Sorry, I forgot to add a Mav-Dutchman 44 cal bullet to the photo, which is a good bullet for 44-40 loaded with Black Powder. It is a slightly smaller version of the PRS bullet, weighing 200 grains.





My point is, if the cylinder pin of the Taylor Conversion models resembles the pin of the regular 1858 model, it will probably have the same problems with binding when fired with Black Powder

[PJ Hardtack]

Just got back from the range with my 44-40 conversions .... temp was just above freezing.
Took three smokeless loads (commercial bullets, Tite Group, Red Dot and Unique) and two BP - my Lyman 200RNFP/30FFg/wax wad; same bullet with 32FFg, no wad.
Gun #1 showed a preference for 6/Tite Group, putting 5 rds into 1-1/4" at 15 yds off hand. Gun #2 preferred 6/Red Dot giving the same size group. I call them #1 and #2 as they have the same serial #s, one with a '1' prefix and t'other with a '2' prefix.

Star of the day was gun #2, putting 5 rds into 1-1/4" at 15 yds off hand with 7.8/Unique and my cast Lyman bullet/SPG. Gun #1 put 5 into 2-1/2".
I posted a target at 25 yds to see what Gun #2 could do with Unique and was rewarded with 10 rds in 3" x 3-12" off hand.

Light was beginning to fade so it was time for the BP loads. With Gun #2, the 30 gr load put 10 rds into a 3"V x 2-1/2"H group, off hand at 15 yds. You could cover 4 rds with a nickel and two others were virtually in the same hole. 32 gr load put 10 rds into 2"V x 2-1/2"H group, again with a nickel sized 4 shot cluster.
I declined messing up the other gun with BP. After 20 rds there was no cylinder binding and I had the feeling I could continue shooting no problem. I had lubed the cylinder pin with my lube, loading up the flat spot on the pin with it. My Remmy C&B .44s have the same flat spot and I lube that up the same way, getting no binding.
These are going to become favourite guns! I couldn't be more pleased.

[PJ Hardtack]

Bright & sunny again today, so back to the range again with three smokeless loads - Unique, Red Dot and Tite Group.
The aim being to find the load BOTH pistols shot the best with, preferably true to the sights without having to modify them.

The results: Tite Group, Red Dot, Unique, in that order. The 6 grs TG load printed a 2" group on POA with #1 and same with #2, only 2" low of POA. Next was 6 grs Red Dot, which grouped superbly on POA with #1, but 3" low with #2. It wasn't entirely a fair test, as both loads were not using the same bullet.
That means yet another trip to the range ... it's hell, I tell you, but someone's gotta do it .....

[The Swede]

Hi all! I have a Taylor's Remington New Army Conversion in .44-40 (.44WCF stamped on the barrel  ). I have so far shot only trail boss loads through it. I will be trying some Black Powder loads this coming week. As to the cylinder binding issue I have heard that polishing the base pin helps. Wouldn't a squirt or 2 of moose milk work as well between stages? I am new to Holy Black myself, so I do not have any experience in this area.

As to the revolver... I love it! That big 8 inch barrel gets everyone's attention, as most of the Pards I shoot with use Ruger Vaqueros.
They always joke about me taking all 4 of my long guns to the unloading table after shooting a stage.

I finally shot some black powder loads through my taylor's Remington. There was some fouling of the base pin, but I gave her a squirt or 2 of moose milk every other cylinder load. No fouling at all behind the cylinder. You gotta love the .44-40 for that. My .45 colts (Remington 1875 repro., and an 1873 Colt SAA repro.) were of course filthy when done shooting for the day. all 3 revolvers cleaned very quickly when using moose milk. Lubed with straight Ballistol after cleaning.