.454 boolits - Cylinder fit

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Pards,

I just got a sample pack from Dash Caliber of some JP200's in .454.  My cylinder measures .454 using my vernier.  I cannot push the boolit through by hand using a dowel but it will push through if I tap on the dowel.

So my question is, how much friction is acceptable in order to use the .454 sized boolits?

Thanks.
 -Willy

[Springfield Slim]

Unless you have to beat on the dowel with a hammer they will be fine. The gunpowder imparts WAY more energy on the bullet than your dowel will ever do.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Measuring your cylinder throats with a caliper is not a very accurate way to measure their diameter. Because of the tiny flat on the measuring surface of the inside diameter jaws, there will always be a slight error. The diameter will actually be one or two thousandths more than the readout.

I agree with slim, as long as you don't have to clobber the dowel with a hammer to get the slug through, those bullets will probably be fine, particularly at Black Powder pressures. Personally, I always use .452 bullets in all my 45 Colt revolvers, even though many 45 Colt chamber mouths tend to run on the large size.

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[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks.  I'm considering the larger boolits cuz I've read that they reduce blowback. I've got no experience with them though.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Higher pressure is what reduces blowback, not larger bullets.

Originally, the Colt Single Action army had a barrel groove diameter of .454. When Colt reintroduced the model after WWII in 1956 they changed the barrel groove diameter spec to .451, in order to match the diameter of the 45 ACP round. So .454 bullets are really for older guns with slightly larger diameter bores. The .452 bullets are for more modern barrels. But 45 Colt revolvers have a history of oversized chamber throats, so some modern guns perform better with the larger diameter bullets.

Ideally, the bullet that just slips through your chamber throats with light pressure is what you want. Have you tried the same test with .452 bullets?

As far as blowback is concerned, in a rifle, higher pressure will obturate the brass better to seal the chamber and prevent gas escaping back past the case. Theoretically the same thing applies to a revolver, but a revolver is not a closed system like a rifle. No matter how well you seal the case in a revolver chamber, you are always going to get some gas escaping at the barrel/cylinder gap. So no matter how well the case expands and seals the chamber against blowback, you are still going to have gas spraying out of the gap.

So at least as far as this cowboy is concerned, sealing the chamber in a revolver isn't very important.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy Again
......some deleted

Ideally, the bullet that just slips through your chamber throats with light pressure is what you want. Have you tried the same test with .452 bullets?

Driftwood Johnson, no I have not.  I will try it when I get back home after the weekend.

I do understand that it expanding the brass is most useful in a rifle.  I don't have a rifle yet, I'm torn between the Henry and the 1866 20" short rifle.  Leaning towards the Yellowboy because of the weight.

In any event I suppose that this discussion is a bit premature since I don't have the rifle.

thanks
  -Willy

[Springfield Slim]

I have a carbine, short rifle and a Henry. Go for the short rifle.

[Howdy Doody]

I like 454 and that is what I size at. I use a softer than 20-1 ratio and I can use them for everything. I load a 454 into ROAs, load them in 45lc and 45 spl brass and never have any issues. When loading in brass though, it is good to see how they  chamber up in your particular revolver or rifle before loading too many. The advantage is less blowback in rifle and in ROAs they fit tight and I do not need wads to prevent chainfire. I do not lube over bullet/ball. I seldom use a 200gr bullet though, but if I think I need better accuracy for some reason, I will. I like the less weight, less recoil, less material gamey bullets myself. 

[Springfield Slim]

For what it's worth, 90% of my bullet customers buy .454.

[Wagon Box Willy]

For what it's worth, 90% of my bullet customers buy .454.

Slim,
I tried your .452's and they give a friction fit, they don't fall through my cylinders but require only slight pressure and feel like a suction fit.

I assume that as long as I can measure around .452 for the bores/ with my caliper (I realize it's not all that accurate but accurate enough I think) Then I should be good with soft lead .454 boolits.....correct?

-Willy (replying from a train somewhere in the UK)

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Willy,

How's the accuracy with your guns and .454 bullets?  If accuracy is good, stay with 'em.  Too small bullets tend to lead bores because gas leaks around them.  The leaking gas cuts the bullets and melts some metal off the bullets and the melted metal sticks in the bores.  One or two thousandths over bore is acceptable for cast bullets with black powder.

DD-DLoS

[Wagon Box Willy]

I haven't been home long enough to check the accuracy, perhaps I can get out back and shoot next week when I'm back in the states.

-Willy

[Fiddler Green]

So at least as far as this cowboy is concerned, sealing the chamber in a revolver isn't very important.

I disagree with that. When I shot 200 grain bullets (.45 Colt with BP) in CAS matches, I found that my guns felt like they had been filled with stand by the end of he second stage. I went back to 250 grain bullets and that fixed the problem. Blowback is an issue, if you don't want to clean your guns after 10 rounds. Oddly, the lighter bullets (same loads) didn't have any effect on my '94 Puma.

[Springfield Slim]

It depends on which revolver you are using also. I can shoot 170 grain BP bullets in my 45 Schofield '72 Opentops and they couldn't care less, keep working all day. But in my 45 Colt SAA's I have to use bigger bullets and/or more powder to try and keep the blowback down.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I shoot nothing but .452 bullets in CAS. Both the PRS 250 grain Big Lube and the J/P 45-200, invented by a couple of guys named Johnson and Peterson. I can shoot them all day long in my 2nd Gen Colts, even though their chambers are a little bit oversized like many 2nd Gen Colts. Doesn't matter. With plenty of SPG in those bullets, I can shoot my Colts, or my Rugers, or my clones all day long without any binding at all and without any cleanup at all. Blowby is not an issue.

My 1858 Remmies with their R%D conversion cylinders are another matter. They bind up quickly. However it has nothing to do with bullet diameter or blowby, it is because the 1858 Remmie lacks a cylinder bushing to deflect fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the face of the cylinder and the base pin. They bind up after just two cylinders full. However, like I say, it has absolutely nothing to do with the bullet diameter, design, or blowby. It is a design flaw in the 1858 Remmie.

Blowby will only be an issue with fouling binding up the rear of the cylinder. If you are getting binding at the front of the cylinder or the cylinder pin, blowby is not causing it. Blowby is by definition powder gasses sneaking around the case towards the rear. Has nothing to do with fouling in front of the cylinder.

As I said earlier, the real purpose for .454 bullets is for older revolvers with .454 diameter barrel grooves. Revolvers made since 1956 have .451 diameter barrel grooves. If the cylinder throats are near to .451 or .452, a .452 bullet will work just fine. If you have oversized chamber throats, the .454 diameter bullet is a good option.

[Springfield Slim]

Technically that is true, but I wonder if the larger/heavier bullets causes a bit longer burn time  due to the extra mass/size, especially at the beginning, causing a more complete burn. Fiddler is not the only one who has told me they get better results with larger bullets. Kinda like the rifle guys who say that seating your bullet to touch the lands gives the powder a longer start and a better burn for more accuracy.