.45 lite

[freighthauler]

hello all,first ever post,so,i'll apologise in advance for,,,whatever!have done much research and consulted all manuals and nowhere can i find what i seek.am loading lee200gr.rnfp with unique,am down to6.5gr.but am sure some cowboys(girls)are loading much less,like maybe5,or4?yeah, i know,but i already have these .45's!!and i see trail boss looks very good for reduced loads,but i already have all this unique! i'm thinking no one will say how low to go,because of litigation???if you use lite loads of unique,please let me know,thank you all,very much,i love these forums!

[Shotgun Franklin]

Just don't go lower that the lowest load the powder maker recommeds for that bullet weight in that cartridge. That applies for any powder.

[Bow View Haymaker]

Be sure to check for a eperate "Cowboy loads" section in your loading manual.  Many of them put the extra light loads in a seperate section.

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[Trailrider]

hello all,first ever post,so,i'll apologise in advance for,,,whatever!have done much research and consulted all manuals and nowhere can i find what i seek.am loading lee200gr.rnfp with unique,am down to6.5gr.but am sure some cowboys(girls)are loading much less,like maybe5,or4?yeah, i know,but i already have these .45's!!and i see trail boss looks very good for reduced loads,but i already have all this unique! i'm thinking no one will say how low to go,because of litigation???if you use lite loads of unique,please let me know,thank you all,very much,i love these forums!

There is a definite reason for not going below the recommended MINIMUM loads for all smokeless powders.  Smokeless powders, including Unique, need to generate at least 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CUP) in order to burn stably.  If the pressures fall too low, the powder can go out, or almost out.  If the bullet has left the cartridge and too little pressure is generated, the bullet can become stuck in the barrel.  In pistols, the bullet might even become stuck in the forcing cone.  If there is sufficient smouldering powder left in the case, the powder might "take off", resulting in pressures going sky high!  This is especially true of the medium-burning pistol powders such as UNIQUE, Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL, etc.!

In .45 LC, I STRONGLY recommend heavier bullets, no lighter than 230 gr., and a FIRM roll crimp of the case mouth into the crimp groove in the bullet.

For what you are proposing, you need to go to a faster-burning powder, or else, to a shorter case, such as the .45 Cowboy Special.  This may not work in unmodified lever action rifles.

Play around with the below minimum loads then you do so at your own risk...plus the risk of those standing next to you, such as the RO!

[Cookie]

In .45 LC, I STRONGLY recommend heavier bullets, no lighter than 230 gr., and a FIRM roll crimp of the case mouth into the crimp groove in the bullet.

I also shoot .45 Colt, and plan on reloading as soon as I buy all the equipment. I don't plan on doing super light loads, since speed isn't my primary goal, and I don't mind the recoil. However, I want to use milder-than-factory loads for my wife's sake.

To that end, I was planning on picking up a 200 gr. bullet mold. Am I wrong here? Why does having a heavier bullet matter?

I've even seen .45cal bullets as light as 150 grains.

[Jefro]

I also shoot .45 Colt, and plan on reloading as soon as I buy all the equipment. I don't plan on doing super light loads, since speed isn't my primary goal, and I don't mind the recoil. However, I want to use milder-than-factory loads for my wife's sake.

To that end, I was planning on picking up a 200 gr. bullet mold. Am I wrong here? Why does having a heavier bullet matter?

I've even seen .45cal bullets as light as 150 grains.

Howdy Cookie, the 200gr is a good bullet for both rifle and pistol. If you really want a milder load for the wife, I strongly suggest the .45 Cowboy Special for the revolvers. Check under "User_data" for some different loads. I shoot mostly BP, but for smokeless I use Red Dot for everything .38, 44/40, ,.45, C.45SP, 45acp, 12ga. Good Luck.
http://www.cowboy45special.com/

freighthauler, you are already way below published minimum for Unique, IMHO I would consider changing to the Cowboy .45 Sp for revolvers also, or go to .38sp. There is just so low you can go with the .45LC. You might want to give Alliant a call. When they changed thier data they let Speers do it, however Speers has a very limited lead bullet selection they used for cowbooy loads. Some of thier minimums exceed the SASS max for pistols. They were very helpfull when I was looking for a 45ACP load for Wild Bunch. Good Luck

Jefro

[Cookie]

Thanks for the input Jefro. Although I am still curious why Trailrider recommends a heavier bullet for light loads. Is it a safety issue?

As for myself, I have an interesting situation. I started with a pair of Pietta '58 New Model Army's, so I figured I'd get a long gun in .45 Colt to match for when I eventually buy a pair of conversion cylinders. So I bought a M92 in .45 Colt before I found out that .45 wasn't so good for BP loads in lever guns. 

So now, my plan is to buy a pair of Remington transition revolvers in .44/40 with a lever gun to match so I can shoot matching BP cartridges.

In the meantime, I plan on using Trail Boss powder for the rifle, and I'll stick with BP cap 'n ball loads in my '58's. 

[Bangor Dan]

If the Remington Transition revolver you refer to is the Uberti 1858 Conversion revolver you won't be able to get it in 44/40, even though they still seem to advertise them that way. Uberti also advertised that they would be convertable to black powder, and that didn't happen either. They only chamber them for 45 Colt and 38 Spec. Uberti does make their '75 Remington clone in 44/40.

Bangor Dan

[Cookie]

Specifically, this is what I'm looking to buy - 1858 New Model Army .44-40 Conversion

It appears to be an actual product?  

I was originally planning on buying 1875's, until I saw these. So, if for some reason it's not real, I'll go back to getting a pair of 1875 Remingtons instead. (I'm a Remington nut.)

[Trailrider]

Thanks for the input Jefro. Although I am still curious why Trailrider recommends a heavier bullet for light loads. Is it a safety issue? {snip}

The greater the weight of the bullet, the more force is required to get it moving.  The more force, the greater pressure is generated by the burning powder.  Smokeless powders require 5,000-7,000 psi (NOT CUP) to reach stable burning.  The slower the powder's burning rate, the higher the pressure required to get it to light off completely.  If it doesn't reach high enough pressure quickly enough...before the bullet starts to move out of the case, the expanding combustion volume in the case and behind the bullet may drop the pressure enough to have the powder go out before it is all burned.  If there is insufficient pressure to get the bullet into the rifling, the bullet may become lodged in the barrel.  In most rifles this could result in the bullet going far enough down the barrel to form an obstruction.  Lever in the next round and...not good.  Worse in a revolver, where the bullet might become lodged in the forcing cone, blocking off the barrel/cylinder gap.  If the powder is still smouldering, it could then "take off" again.  Since it takes more force to start the bullet moving again than it would take to engrave the rifling on the bullet from a running start, pressures can go high enough to rupture the cartridge case, burning through the cylinder walls, and...generally the top comes off the gun.  This phenomenon has been demonstrated by a ballistic lab in South Africa, which uses a different means of pressure measurement than is standard in the U.S.

Even with heavier bullets, too light a load can set up the condition...not always, but often enough to pay attention to the MINIMUM loads shown in reloading manuals, especially with the medium and slow-burning pistol powders.  Also, be sure to get good neck tension on the bullet (don't over-expand the case mouth), and a firm, but not excessive roll crimp.  This aids in retarding "shot start" until the pressures come up.

So how do you avoid this, yet generate lighter felt recoil?  Lighter bullets, yes!  But you will probably need to go to faster-burning powders, which will build pressures faster with the lighter bullets.  Obviously...or not so obviously...faster powders require lower charge weights.  With most smokeless powders, faster powders take up less volume.  In a "cavernous" case like the .45 LC, less volume means more room for the powder to flop around as the guns are drawn, shot, etc.  The answer is either to go to a bulk smokeless, like Trail Boss, or a shorter case, which reduces the combustion volume and powder space.  A cartridge like .45 Colt Cowboy, which is essentially a .45 LC case base with a .45 ACP length and internal volume.  This is a great idea.  The main drawback is the shorter round may not feed in UNmodified rifles.  In revolvers, it is GGGREAT!

To reiterate:  Pay attention to the MINIMUM loads shown in manuals for a given cartridge and bullet weight.  If you can't find one for your favorite bullet weight, it means the manual-writer/ballisticians have determined the loads outside the recommended MAX and MIN don't produce consistant, stable results!

Even Congress can't repeal the laws of physics!  

[Bangor Dan]

Cookie,

Just checked online and Cimarron as well as Taylors still list the '58 Conversion as being available in 44/40, but they've shown it in their catalogs for at least the last two and a half years and they've been a no show. It seems to this novice that if Uberti can chamber this cylinder for 45 Colt that 44/40 is also possible, but apparently it doesn't work that way.
I'm with you and would also like to have one in 44.

Bangor Dan

[Dick Dastardly]

For what I consider the ultimate in lite loads for the venerable 45 Long Colt chambers I like the Cowboy 45 Special brass and the Big Lube EPP-UG 150 grain bullet.  Loaded with 1.3cc of black powder it gives a nice compressed load that shoots like a laser and recoils very gently.  Your 92 will probably not feed them but there is a fix for 73s, 66s and some marlins that runs 'em real slick.

DD-DLoS

P.S.  This short brass/bullet combo will also do very with heathen fad smokeyless loads.

[Jefro]

So now, my plan is to buy a pair of Remington transition revolvers in .44/40 with a lever gun to match so I can shoot matching BP cartridges.

Howdy again Cookie, IMHO the best combination for large caliber is .45 pistols and 44/40 rifle This way you can still download the Cowboy .45 Specials in the pistols when you want to, or need to for the wife. And if you ever decide to try cowboy fast draw you have .45s. Some folks will try to tell you that it's hard to  keep up with the two different calibers, but I can assure you it's very simple, when in doubt read the bottom of the cartridge. Good Luck.

Jefro

[Cookie]

The greater the weight of the bullet...

Thanks for the input Trailrider, that's great info. As I mentioned, I don't plan on using super-light loads, just slightly reduced. But, understanding what's happening in the chamber is always useful.

... they've shown it in their catalogs for at least the last two and a half years and they've been a no show. It seems to this novice that if Uberti can chamber this cylinder for 45 Colt that 44/40 is also possible, but apparently it doesn't work that way.
I'm with you and would also like to have one in 44.

Well... crap.  

I also wish Remington conversion cylinders were also available in .44-40, but since that would require a new barrel, .45 Colt is it. I'm assuming these conversion models had barrels to match, which was why I was so excited when I found them.

... Your 92 will probably not feed them but there is a fix for 73s, 66s and some marlins that runs 'em real slick.

I'd love to shoot BP only, but it's my understanding that shooting .45 BP loads through a lever gun without fouling the works is pretty tricky. I've read several articles on how to make it work, and it seems a bit more trouble than it's worth. (At least for a novice like me.) Which is why I'm set on getting a a set of guns chambered for .44-40, but shooting smokeless in my .45's until then.

 I know this is sacrilege to you, but please indulge my weakness until a better situation arrives.  

Howdy again Cookie, IMHO the best combination for large caliber is .45 pistols and 44/40 rifle...

The first shoot I was at, another shooter was running exactly that set-up. He ended up feeding some .45 cartridges into his .44-40 rifle. There was quite a bit of debate of what to do. Luckily, he was able to cycle the gun and eject the rounds. I'd rather learn from his mistake, and match up ammo between guns.  

[pony express]

The first shoot I was at, another shooter was running exactly that set-up. He ended up feeding some .45 cartridges into his .44-40 rifle. There was quite a bit of debate of what to do. Luckily, he was able to cycle the gun and eject the rounds. I'd rather learn from his mistake, and match up ammo between guns.  

It is possible to confuse .45 colt and 44/40, but if you go with .45 Cowboy spec, or even .45 Schofield, it's easy to spot the shorter cases.

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'd love to shoot BP only, but it's my understanding that shooting .45 BP loads through a lever gun without fouling the works is pretty tricky. I've read several articles on how to make it work, and it seems a bit more trouble than it's worth. (At least for a novice like me.) Which is why I'm set on getting a a set of guns chambered for .44-40, but shooting smokeless in my .45's until then.

Howdy

Generally speaking, guys who talk about how much Black Powder fouls up the mechanism of a rifle,

1. Don't shoot Black Powder in a rifle, and

2. Don't know what they are talking about.

A rifle, unlike a revolver, is a closed system. There is no barrel/cylinder gap for fouling to be blasted out all over the place. As far as fouling is concerned, a rifle is just a pipe. If you can seal the chamber well enough to avoid blowback, the fouling will all stay in the pipe and very little will get in the mechanism.

It's really very simple. To accomplish this, you need to seal the chamber as well as possible when the rifle fires. In order to seal the chamber you need to generate as much pressure as possible to expand the brass. This will eliminate gas from blowing by the round in the chamber and and fouling up the mechanism. This gets right back to what Trailrider is talking about with generating pressure. It also gets back to choice of caliber, and in a smaller way it gets down to the model of rifle you choose. 44-40 is perfect for shooting Black Powder in a rifle. 44-40 brass is thinner at the neck than most other calibers. Only about .007 thick, vs about .012 thick for 45 Colt. So with any given amount of pressure, the thinner 44-40 brass will expand more efficiently and seal the chamber than a similar load in 45 Colt will. Of course, you do have to develop some pressure and if you start fooling around with light loads, and fillers, you are defeating the entire purpose. I shoot nothing but Black Powder loads in CAS, my rifles are all 44-40, currently I shoot a Henry but for a number of years I also shot a '73. I stuff the case full of powder and plop a soft lead Big Lube bullet on top. When my rounds eject, they seal the chamber so well that they are as clean as Smokeless rounds. No fouling gets into the mechanism.

45 Colt can be a little bit more troublesome, because of the thicker case. Most guys who shoot 45 Colt Black Powder loads in a rifle do get some blowby resulting in some fouling in the mechanism. Again, by filling the case with powder, using a heavy 250 grain bullet, and a firm crimp, this can be mostly eliminated. Even with a little bit of fouling in the mechanism, it is usually not a show stopper and a little bit of a squirt of your favorite Black Powder solvent will keep a gun running through a match.

Too a lesser extent, the rifle model will also have some effect on fouling in the mechanism. All the toggle link rifles, the Henry, Winchester Model 1866 and Winchester Model 1873, have the mechanism physically removed from the carrier. The carrier is in front of the rest of the mechanism. That is why their frames are so long. With this arrangement, any fouling that gets past the chamber will usually stay in the area of the carrier, where it can easily be dealt with. The more modern designs like the Winchester Model 1892 and the Marlin Model 1894 are more compact. They are more wide open with the carrier in the same location as the rest of the mechanism. So any fouling that manages to get by the chamber will probably get into the mechanism. Again, no big problem at a match, with a judicious squirt of solvent. At cleaning time, the Marlin has it over the '92 because takedown is very simple and the entire action can easily be cleaned out. Takedown is a bit more fussy with a '92. With a toggle link rifle, I don't even bother to disassemble it for cleaning. A few swipes of a bore snake through the bore and the barrel is clean. A little light application of solvent to the accessible areas of the action and I am done. I only take them completely apart to completely clean them out once a year.

[Abilene]

Cookie,

Just checked online and Cimarron as well as Taylors still list the '58 Conversion as being available in 44/40, but they've shown it in their catalogs for at least the last two and a half years and they've been a no show. It seems to this novice that if Uberti can chamber this cylinder for 45 Colt that 44/40 is also possible, but apparently it doesn't work that way.
I'm with you and would also like to have one in 44.

Bangor Dan

Wrong.  Cimarron HAS had them in 44-40.  I think Taylors had some as well.  I'll repeat what I've told folks on numerous occasions.  If you want something that is not in stock or is a new product that hasn't come in yet, have your dealer call Cimarron and put it on backorder.  There is no obligation (if your dealer asks for a deposit then he is being dishonest.  Cimarron only requires deposits on special orders like engraved guns, stuff like that).  Then when the item comes in in 2 months or 2 years, they go down the backorder list calling dealers to see if they still want the item.  If you don't want it at that time, no problem, but at least you have a chance to get one.  Otherwise if you just call and check on availability every so often you may very well have missed the boat if the item came in and then sold out.  Taylors may very well have a similar policy, I'm not sure.

[freighthauler]

howdy all !, i just want to thank everyone for all the response to my post,as a result, i'm putting the unique(temporarily) back on the shelf!am now going to work with bullseye as is better for lite loads.anyone have experiance with it behind 200gr.lead??any good lite loads? thanks to you all.

[Camille Eonich]

A popular load around these parts for .45 shooters is 165 grain bullet on top of 4.3 grains of Red Dot.  Red Dot is a pretty fast burning powder but a magnum primer works well with this load too.

[freighthauler]

thank you camille, and everyone else, have been using bullseye with lee's 200 gr.r.f. after much experimenting, have pretty much settled on 5.2 gr., works well in rifle and revolver, have yet to test at longer ranges,but good at pistol range. thanks again, rich.