50-95 range report

[Doc O]

50 yrds off rest.
80 grs 1F
350 gr. Old West ugly bullet
Home made lube
This isn't the best off the rest. Another day when it's warmer and I not pressed for time.
Also need to either shine up the front sight or replace it.
It's fun to shoot.


Doc

[ndnchf]

Sorry Doc, but the image doesn't show up for me

[Doc O]

Lets try again.

&&$%#%^& computers
Doc
Now they both work, go figure
Still waiting for the correct expander from 4-D. They sent the wrong one the first time.

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[ndnchf]

Looks great Doc!

[kwilliams1876]

HAVE BEEN SHOOTING MY UBERTI 50-95 ALOT AND CAN'T SEEM TO GET A GROUP UNDER 6" AT 50 YDS. HAVE TRIED RCBS COWBOY BULLET, LYMAN 515130, AND OLDWEST UGLY BULLET. THESE ARE IN THE 350-360 GRAIN WEIGHT. MY BORE IS .513, AND THEY EITHER DONT BUMP UP OR STRIP THE RIFLING.  I'M LOADING 80GRS OF 2F OR 3F WITH CARBOARD WAD, AND BASE WIPED CLEAN................BUT IF I LOAD A 430 LEAD GRAIN SLUG FROM ONE OF MY MOLDS IT WILL SHOOT 2" GROUPS, DOWN SIDE IS THEY HAVE TO BE SINGLEY LOADED AS THEY EXCEED THE OAL TO FUNCTION THRU THE MAGAZINE AND I DONT WANT TO CUT MY BRASS BACK THAT MUCH JUST YET. BERNIE AT OLD WEST MOULDS  HAS SOMETHING IN MIND THAT MAY WORK BEFORE I HAVE A CUSTOM MOLD CUT. THE PEOPLE AT UBERTI ARE TOTALLY USELESS
WHEN I ASK THEM WHAT BULLET THE THE GUN WAS DESIGNED AROUND.  MINE HAS A 1 IN 48 TWIST.....NOT WHAT WINCHESTER USED.....BUT I WILL GET THIS FIGURED OUT YET. BY COMPARISON MY 44-77 REMINGTON AND 45-110 SHARPS WERE A PIECE OF CAKE!

[Buck Stinson]

I have several original .50 Express '76 rifles and what you are describing is typical of the original guns, too.  I shoot all of my originals a lot, so I'm very familiar with the "quirks" that come with shooting these guns.  The originals don't have any accuracy what-so-ever, when you shoot the 300 grain bullet at short range and the 1 in 60 twist will not allow for a heavier bullet, thus the EXPRESS designation.   The Winchester Express designation means the cartridge is designed to shoot  Flat, Fast and Far.   I have found that the 300 grain bullet in front of 85 grains of 2F, a card wad and 6 grains of 4227 over the primer, will give a group of 3" to 4" at 200 yards on a bench.  And yet, I can't hit a 12" pie plate at 50 yards.  The short bullet is designed for "long range" and will not stabilize until it is out at least 75 to 100 yards from the muzzle.   The reason the .44-77 and the .45-110 shoot so well at shorter ranges is because the bullets are long and have a lot of surface within the rifled bore.  This is the very reason your 430 grain bullet works so well at short range in your .50 Express.  I do not own and have never shot a repop '76, so my only experience comes from 45 years of shooting original 1876 Winchesters.  One other thing I should mention is the fact that I have all of the modern RCBS, C & H dies, bullet molds and other equipment for all of the 1876 calibers, but the ones I use ALL the time are the original reloading tools and bullet molds made by Winchester.  None of the "modern" stuff works nearly as well, for the original guns.  Just MHOP.

[Doc O]

kwilliams1876 . I'm still new to the 50-95 and I'm sure Buck know what he is talking about.
What I look for with the big bores is a bullet .002 over bore size.
And some times fast isn't always good. You might try 1F.
I think this target can be much better. Had a hard time seeing the front sight.
What I loaded was.
Fed. large rifle mag primer
80grs. 1F
1 veg wad/1 news paper wad over powder
Ugly bullet w/home lube size .515 [lead ww]
1/6" to 1/8' compresion
Keep playing with it.
Doc

[Herbert]

my calculations  for 513 groove diameter boolit traviling at 1300 is a boolit lenth of .686 would give maximum stability in a 1 in 48 twist barell ,this would be a boolit around 300gr

[Buck Stinson]

That's what I get for trying to give out some important info when I'm tired.  In my last post, I said that the 350 grain bullet won't stabilize in the .50 Express.  I don't know what I was thinking, but the bullet weight I was referring too, was the 300 grain and not 350.  The original .50-95 Express ammunition and all of the original Winchester bullet molds in this caliber are 300 grain lead.  I REPEAT, NOT 350 GRAIN.  I have changed my last post to reflect the REAL data.  Sorry about that.  If anyone ever sees one of my posts that they have questions about, PLEASE let me know.  I have shot these guns for many years, but that doesn't make me an expert.  EXPERT is a word I'm not partial too.

[skoda]

I have an original 50-95 that shoots like a shot gun at 50 yards, never got to 100 because I had no confidence that I could hit the 4x8 sheet of plywood that we tack targets to. Now I'll go try it at 100 and see if it does any better.

[kwilliams1876]

I'm trying to understand how a bullets that have strayed from line of sight at 50yds could somehow reconverge into a theoretical tighter group at 100 yds.  Is that posssible?

[kwilliams1876]

SUCCESS AT LAST.....NOW SHOOTING "OLD WEST BULLET MOULDS"  SLUG  IN .515 DIA. THAT BERNIE MADE FOR ME. STATED WT IS 395 GR, ACTUAL IS 405 GR.  JUST SHOT A 2 INCH 100 YD GROUP WITH IT!!!  USING 348 WIN BRASS, CARDBOARD WAD AND COMPRESSED 80 GR 2FF.  THIS BULLET HAS A CRIMP GROOVE AND OAL IS PERFECT... THE 1 IN 48"  TWIST SEEMS TO REQUIRE THE EXTRA BEARING SURFACE.

[ndnchf]

SUCCESS AT LAST..... THIS BULLET HAS A CRIMP GROOVE AND OAL IS PERFECT... THE 1 IN 48"  .

What is the length of this bullet and what is the distance from base to crimp groove?  At that weight is must be seating below the case neck to stay within O/A length necesary to operate in the '76 action.

[Doc O]

SUCCESS AT LAST.....NOW SHOOTING "OLD WEST BULLET MOULDS"  SLUG  IN .515 DIA. THAT BERNIE MADE FOR ME. STATED WT IS 395 GR, ACTUAL IS 405 GR.  JUST SHOT A 2 INCH 100 YD GROUP WITH IT!!!  USING 348 WIN BRASS, CARDBOARD WAD AND COMPRESSED 80 GR 2FF.  THIS BULLET HAS A CRIMP GROOVE AND OAL IS PERFECT... THE 1 IN 48"  TWIST SEEMS TO REQUIRE THE EXTRA BEARING SURFACE.

Bernie makes a good mould. The one I have from him is 350 grs, .515.
I did go from 1F to 2F and tighten the group up very nice @ 100 yrds.
The other day I got off about 5 shoots and then NO main spring  , turned out the main spring came out of the
hooked slot on the lower tang. I would like to see a better set up for the main spring.
I'll have to come up with something different if it happens again. Not sure just what.
Doc

ndnchf--Did anyone ever find out if Rapine closed up shop?

[kwilliams1876]

What is the length of this bullet and what is the distance from base to crimp groove?  At that weight is must be seating below the case neck to stay within O/A length necesary to operate in the '76 action.

[/quote

HELLO
BERNIES SLUG IS .800 LONG, WITH .450 FROM BASE TO CRIMP GROOVE. MY CASE IS  1.94 LONG. THE  FEW THOUSANDS  BELOW CASE NECK IS NEGLIGABLE. THIS SLUG HAS A LARGE DRIVING BASE BAND THAT COMBUSTION APPERENTLY IT DOES NOT AFFECT.  TAKE A LOOK AT A .300 WIN MAG WITH 180 GR BULLETS.....THEY HANG WAY BELOW THE SHOULDER, BUT STILL SHOOT. IN THE 50-95 YOU JUST LOOSE SOME POWDER CAPACITY.  NEXT TIME OUT I WILL TRY 3FFF.  BY THE WAY I NEED TO LAP OUT THE SEATING DIE  1-2 THOUSANDS TO LET THE .515 SLUG ENTER THE DIE PLUG CHAMBER (RCBS DIES, SEEMS THEY COME AT .513).   ALSO THIS BULLET APPEARS TO CARRY ENOUGH LUBE FOR THE 28 INCH BARREL. 

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   Something to remember is that the Original 1876 Winchesters in .50 Exp. have a much slower
rifling twist (1-60", I believe), which is best for the 300 gr. bullets at maximum allowable speed.
I believe that all of the Replica 1876 .50 Exp. rifles are 1-48".
   Although I haven't had a chance to experiment with my Chapp. 1876 .50 Exp. yet, I would not
be surprised if it shot better with the heavier/longer 350gr. bullets. I have several different moulds
to try, and as soon as I can GET OUT!!, I'll pass on my findings.
   For those with the Replica 1876 .50 Exp. that want to use the original 300gr. bullet, you may want
to try casting your bullets with a harder lead alloy, the better to grip the faster rifling twist. I'll try
the same.

   Be Well, All!

                  M.T.Marfield

[kwilliams1876]

HAD A NICE BENCH SESSION LAST NIGHT IN MY FAVORITE CANYON UP HERE IN MONTANA. I HAVE SINCE ADDED A TAYLORS TANG SIGHT THAT I MADE A NEW ELEVATOR FOR. I CUT IT FOR A DOVETAIL SLIDE SO I NOW HAVE SOME WINDAGE. IT WORKS GREAT!  I ALSO MADE A NEW EXPANDER PLUG FOR THE RCBS DIES AT .5135 (BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T) AND REAMED OUT THE SIZING DIE THROAT ACCORDINGLY.  USED COMPRESSED 3F, .515 400 GR. OLD WEST, SPG, CARDBOARD WAD,MAG PRIMERS, TRIGGER JOB, SILVER BLADE MILLED INTO FRONT SIGHT. THE NET RESULT FOR  ALL THIS TINKERING WAS A VERY PRETTY 4 INCH GROUP AT 200 YARDS. A GLOBE FRONT SIGHT MAY BE NEXT IN LINE. A 3 INCH GROUP SHOULD BE POSSIBLE.  
BLACK BEARS BEWARE NOW!

[evodude]

Mine shoots 1/2" one shot groups all day long at 100 yds........!

[Doc O]

Mine shoots 1/2" one shot groups all day long at 100 yds........!

Can't beat that. I'll have to give that a try.
That should realy tighten up my goup.
Doc

[Yellowboy]

Very nice results there, kwilliams! I would be more than happy to get groups like yours.

I have a 2008 Uberti 50-95 which I'm just starting to break in. If I read you right, you also have a Uberti rather than one of the other brands, and your bore size is 513. If mine is also 513, then I reckon I need to size to 514 or leave unsized at 515 out of the Lyman 515139 mould.

I have had only limited opportunity to test a few warmup loads but these have involved using the Lyman 515139 340gn (actually 350gn in my alloy) sized to 512, which is the 56-50 Spencer sizing. I found no tumbling or lack of stability at 50 or 100 yds, but also not especially good grouping using the standard open sights. Groups are around 2 to 3 inches at 50 yds and twice that at 100 yds.

It's always hard to know if this is just a limitation of the sights and eyes or whether there's another issue, but I'm thinking that the 512 bullets are not the right size and I'll see a better group if I size at 514 or leave unsized at 515. What would you think?

Incidentally, I checked the twist and mine is a 60 inch twist, same as they say the originals are. I don't know if other makes like Chappy or Cimarron are 48 inch but I thought these barrels all came from the same place.