Looking for reloading die for original Spencer rifle

[Four Sixes]

Howdy,
I am looking for reloading die for my original spencer rifle. I slugged the barrel and the bullet diameter from lane to lane is ~ 0.534". Where can I get the right neck-expanding die? Can I use the starline 56-50 brass? My original spencer rifle can cycle the 56-50 brass without any problem. My question is whether it is safe to use it. Thanks!

Four Sixes

[Herbert]

Your spencer is a 56-56 this cass is shorter than the 56-50 ,Buffalow Arms sells the casses ,the bullet is a heal based boolit ,56-56 boars are slitly taperd genraly starting at around .545 and tapering to .535 for best acuracy get the .546375 rapine heal based mould if you can , the Buffalow Arms cases are made for this mould ,CH dies makes dies for the 56-56 ,good luck

[Arizona Trooper]

You'll have a problem with feeding using 56-50 cases and heeled bullets. The OAL will be too long. You will need to trim them back a little to get a good length (about 1.625" works well in my 56-56) CH-4D makes 56-56 dies. They are available from Buffalo Arms, and probably other places too.

What I do is start with cut down 50-70 cases and make 50 carbine brass. When the necks split, I cut them back to 56-50. When they split again, they get shortened to 56-56. When they split again, they get shortened one last time and become 56-56 Ballard (which likes cases shorter than the Spencer). 

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[Four Sixes]

Got the 56-56 brass and reloading die from buffalo arms, they ain't cheap. Will buy the 50-70 brass next time and cut them down myself to save some $$$...Still no luck in finding the mold for my spencer rifle. If anyone is selling their rapine mold, please let me know. Thanks.
Have a wonderful Easter!
4-sixes

[Four Sixes]

Need help in reloading the original spencer rifle!

I can't close the brench after I placed an empty 56-56 brass (50-70 cut down brass from buffalo arms)  into the chamber. The end of the brass stick out a bit. The spencer is marked 1860 on top of the receiver area.

Also, I can't expend the 56-56 brass to 0.546" using the CH-4D expending die. I have to turn the die so deep that it ruined one of the 56-56 brass (bulging the middle of the brass). The expender die was marked 517 on top

Any suggestion on how I could make it work?

4-sixes

[Two Flints]

Four Sixes,

You might want to take your last post in this thread and use it as a basis for starting a new thread with a different title more in tune with what help you're looking for.  This might help you to get more responses from SSS members.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

Need help in reloading the original spencer rifle!

I can't close the brench after I placed an empty 56-56 brass (50-70 cut down brass from buffalo arms)  into the chamber. The end of the brass stick out a bit. The spencer is marked 1860 on top of the receiver area.

Also, I can't expend the 56-56 brass to 0.546" using the CH-4D expending die. I have to turn the die so deep that it ruined one of the 56-56 brass (bulging the middle of the brass). The expender die was marked 517 on top

Any suggestion on how I could make it work?

4-sixes

with your brass not fiting you will have to check rim diameeter,should be  around .64 inch and over all lenth of the cass,I belivethe Buffalow arms cases are slitly longer than the original casses so they properly fit  the Rapine 56-56 healed bass boolit. you do not expand cass mouth to 0.546 as the 56-56 was desighned for a healed bass boolit , the CH dies expand fine for this but you will have to get the proper mould or boolits,are your dies defintly 56-56 and not 56-50

[Four Sixes]

with your brass not fiting you will have to check rim diameeter,should be  around .64 inch and over all lenth of the cass,I belivethe Buffalow arms cases are slitly longer than the original casses so they properly fit  the Rapine 56-56 healed bass boolit. you do not expand cass mouth to 0.546 as the 56-56 was desighned for a healed bass boolit , the CH dies expand fine for this but you will have to get the proper mould or boolits,are your dies defintly 56-56 and not 56-50

Thanks Herbert...The rim diameter of the 56-56 brasses are close to 0.64". it appears the rim thickness of the 56-56 brass is thicker than the 56-50 brass (which I could insert the 56-50 brass into the spencer rifle and close the breech). Since I don't have the rapine 0.546 healed mold, I am stuck from making any bullet

Any suggestion on how to thin the rim thickness?

4-sixes

[Herbert]

before you thin the rim check the size of the head of the cass just in front of the rim it should be no more than 0.559 inch ,some 50-70 casses can be a bit biger stoping the cass going all the way in ,this has hapened to me and i thined the rim a couple of though with no inprovment till i relised the real problem,but if you have to thin the rim a lathe is realy the way to do it whith 50-70 brass you can take a couple of though of the face of the rim then youse large pistol primers but you have to be precice or the primers will sit proud(VERY DANGROUS) I would fist try rounding of the edge of the rim if it has not allready been dun then if they still do not fit tell Buffalow arms about the problem with the casses also check weather the chamber ia free of burs dry firing has damaged a lot of these old guns around the chamber ,yously easly removed with a metal scraper

[Four Sixes]

Hi Herbert,

The base is 0.559 in the 56-56 brass. But the rim is measured as 0.062 (56-50 rim measured as 0.057 which I could close the breech block). I am screwed since I don't have lathe to do the job
Trying to get the original spencer to fire is tougher than I could manage...LOL
Called Buffalo arms today and is waiting for their reply...hope they will call me back and give me some suggestion.

4-sixes

[Herbert]

Hi Herbert,

The base is 0.559 in the 56-56 brass. But the rim is measured as 0.062 (56-50 rim measured as 0.057 which I could close the breech block). I am screwed since I don't have lathe to do the job
Trying to get the original spencer to fire is tougher than I could manage...LOL
Called Buffalo arms today and is waiting for their reply...hope they will call me back and give me some suggestion.

4-sixes

somtimes but not always starline 56-50 brass cut to lenth anealed and fireformed will work ,i would give this a go before i gave up on the brass ,if it extracts after fierforming it will be the simpelest way ,you can youse any boolit that will fit in the cass mouth to fierform as acuracy does not mater,then maybe somone could give you a few healed based boolits to make up some cartriges ,till you can find a mould,dont give up the end will be very satisfying

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

Go to page 14

I looked in at NEI Handtools, Inc.   Their .525 - 379C looks like it is intended for the .56-50.  Don't know, but if a Rapine mould can't be located give them a call.

NEI also shows a .540-440-SH, which appears to be a heeled bullet.

[Bead Swinger]

4-6's
If you can't close the breech on a Buffalo Arms 56-56 case (cut down 50-70s), then that is an issue.  They should fit just fine.
My experience with the cut-down Starline 56-50 brass was that it was too small to extract properly in my 1860R. When I cut down my own 50-70's, I wound up filing down the back to get them to fit, because the head spacing was too big. The same rifle took the Buffalo Arms brass with no issues.

Let me see if I have anything still in the basement - I may have some brass or a dud round floating around.  I sold my rifle and kit last year (to get an Evans), but I think I might have something.

If you want the 535xxx mold from Rapine - find the guy's phone number and call.  I talked with him last year, and he was still in business, and may have one on the shelf, or can crank one out for you.  I was very pleased with the mold.

[Herbert]

the NEI 540-440-SH boolit is for the percusion Sharps and has a pointed nose so i would not youse it ,the .525-395 is the best designed boolit i have seen so far for the original 56-50 Spencer,I think i have to have one,If you can get in touch with Rapine bullet mould ,the number i hav yoused was(215)679-5413 though if he has retired it probly not working now ,I would try to get the .546375 mould as the 56-56 bore is slitly taperd yousl starting at around .545 and tapering to around .530 ,so you will get beter acuracy and less leading with the slitly larger boolit

[Four Sixes]

Thank you all for your suggestions. Will check out the NEI mould.
Hi Bead Swinger, please let me know what you could find in your basement

Trying to test the CH-4D 56-56 die last night using both 56-50 and 56-56 brass with no success. Doesn't crimp well...don't know why  Please if anyone have some extra 56-56 cast bullets lying around, send me an email...thanks!

Well, will reload some ammo for my repro 56-50 rifle instead for some needed "boom therapy" this weekend...hahaha 

4-Sixes

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
This may NOT be much help as Lyman no longer makes the mould I use (533476AX), but the principle might help if you can locate the right mould or have one made.  When I discovered that M1860 carbines have a tapered bore, going from about .545" just ahead of the chamber to .535" at the muzzle (22" barrel), and I did NOT want to use heel bullets, I discovered that using hollow based bullets with a cast diameter of about .538" and the inside of the case necks reamed for about .004" smaller than the bullets (I used cut down .50-70 cases, which make the walls thicker at the resultant new mouth of the .56-56 cases), would allow the rounds to chamber (I sometimes had to run the finished round partly into the sizing die), and produced quite acceptable accuracy, even using smokeless powder!  With BP and a .535" bullet the hollow base slugs should expand into the grooves.

BTW, FWIW, and while I do NOT necessarily recommend the use of smokeless powder in these original guns, I have found that the internal volume of cut down .50-70 brass (Dixie Gun Works older stuff), and the Relative Sectional Density (weight in grains, divided by 7000, divided by the square of the diameter of the bullet) of most of the suitable bullets are very close to those of the .45 LC!  A commonly quoted charge of Unique produced velocities in the 850 ft/sec range for the 411 gr. bullet.  BTW, I cast these out of #2 alloy, rather than softer, as I seem to get better results! IMR 4227 also produced good results with this bullet design.

Regardless of what loads you use, you must crimp the case mouth firmly, and prolonging case life of cut down .50-70 brass requires annealing the upper half of the case.  I set UNprimed brass on top of a pill bottle, filled with water so it won't float, set in a pot of water so that the lower half of the case is submerged.  The pot is on a lazy susan, so I can turn it by hand.  I use a propane torch aimed at the case mouth and what is above water level.  I turn the lazy susan and when the case discolors (it probably will NOT turn "cherry red"), knock the case off the pill bottle into the water to quench in the anneal.

As long as you don't try to magnumize the loads, you can get pretty good results using CAS-level data for .45 LC for the .56-56 and .56-50.  [I can assume no responsibility for the use of the above information in guns other than my own, and maybe not then!

Hope this helps.

[Herbert]

Thank you all for your suggestions. Will check out the NEI mould.
Hi Bead Swinger, please let me know what you could find in your basement

Trying to test the CH-4D 56-56 die last night using both 56-50 and 56-56 brass with no success. Doesn't crimp well...don't know why  Please if anyone have some extra 56-56 cast bullets lying around, send me an email...thanks!

Well, will reload some ammo for my repro 56-50 rifle instead for some needed "boom therapy" this weekend...hahaha 

4-Sixes

this another problem with the 56-56 a crimp is hard to managre ,the boolit is the same diameter as the outside of the cass,i have found with the proper healed boolit after loading you remove the decaping rod from the full lenth sizer and run loaded cartriges through this die works very well or you could get a custom crimp die made simular to the lee factory crimp die ,i did this for my Evans and it works very well

[Four Sixes]

Thanks Herbert and Trailrider for the tips

Here is another dumb question I have...if the barrel is tappered from 0.546" in the chamber to 0.535" at the muzzle...will the 0.546" bullet get stuck in the middle of the barrel or blow up the barrel???

Has anyone try the Lee 54 cal R.E.A.L bullet, resizes it down to 0.546" and use it as a single shot. The one that I have measured 0.548" at the top ring, 0.544" at the 2nd ring, 0.536" at the 3rd ring and 0.529" at the bottom ring. Any thought or comment?

4-sixes

[Trailrider]

Thanks Herbert and Trailrider for the tips

Here is another dumb question I have...if the barrel is tappered from 0.546" in the chamber to 0.535" at the muzzle...will the 0.546" bullet get stuck in the middle of the barrel or blow up the barrel???

Has anyone try the Lee 54 cal R.E.A.L bullet, resizes it down to 0.546" and use it as a single shot. The one that I have measured 0.548" at the top ring, 0.544" at the 2nd ring, 0.536" at the 3rd ring and 0.529" at the bottom ring. Any thought or comment?

4-sixes

No.  The bullet tapers down in the bore just like in a sizing die.  Granted, the pressure will rise a little bit compared, say, to a bullet that is .535" all along, but the compressive strength of the bullet, combined with the dwell time in the barrel being relatively long means that the stresses in the bullet will dissipate in the form of heat.  (I would NOT shoot jacketed bullets in a tapered bore, however.)  Also, the bullet you describe has very little of it that is "full diameter" to start with. Original Spencer ammo in .56-56 varied all over the place.  As measured ahead of the case mouth, some were as small as .535, but many were as large as .555" to .557", depending on the brand!  (See "Spencer Repeating Firearms" by Roy Marcot.)

The 3-1/2" - 5" groups (depending on the loads I used) I generally got with my carbine at 50 yds has more to do with the poor sights and my old eyeballs.  The Spencer, especially the carbines were not intended for long range arms, and the relatively low ballistic coefficient of the bullets and the low velocities tended to make the bullets drift to the right at longer ranges.  But think of comparing the Spencer (and the Henry) to the main battle rifles of the day.  In more modern times, the main battle rifle such as the M-1 Garand or M-14 if compared to, say, a Thompson, an M-3, or M-16/M-4.  The MBR puts out very accurate fire out to say 600 yds, whereas the latter arms were intended to put out a high volume of fire at a shorter range.  What do we call such guns nowadays?  (I won't use the language here, but the initials are "A" "R"!  )  Think of the Spencer as a Civil War AR!    This was true even when the breechloading Trapdoor Springfields were introduced.  Unfortunately...especially for the 7th Cav...the policy after 1868 or so was to go to the long-range, single shot breechloader, instead of the assau...t (oops!) rifle.  The native insurgents were under no such restrictions.
 

[Four Sixes]

Thanks Charles for the NEI link They do have some nice looking molds.

Trailrider....I know what you mean...

I will see if the Lee .54 R.E.A.L bullet cast in soft lead will work in my spencer rifle (not carbine) or not and see if the 56-56 sizer die could size it down for me or not. Thank you all! 

4-Sixes