Deerskin rifle bag.

[Curley Cole]

JohnR

Excellent tips. Actually some of the refrences u use are in some of the links I sent to 4Trod

I wish I could do some beading, but for the same reason I can't do leather, I must watch..arthritis is a pain.  I would like to see some of the pieces you may have in your collection...

good shootin
curley

[Forty Rod]

OKay, being from Cache Valley, Utah and having travelled the country and know people who were Shoshone, Ute, and Navajo (and some Papago, Hopi, Zuni, Blackfeet, etc.)  I want to stay with the Shoshone and Ute designs.

I have two pictures, unfortunately not in color, of solid color beaded panels with crosses on them.  Both are on Shoshone shirts.  One is very light (white?) with darker crosses (red, black, blue ?) and the other is darker...but not really black dark... background with lighter colored crosses.  Both have vertical borders about a bead wide in colors to match the crosses.

Could I have a dark red with white crosses and border and not be too far off?

I appreciate the reference materials, but I'd like to get this scabbard done before Christmas and my local library doesn't have most of the books given.

If this turns out well I'll likely do more and spend more time on research, but this one is a quicky and a practice piece to see if I can actually do the leather and bead work before I dive in over my head.

[Curley Cole]

Sounds good. A couple of the links I sent you gave you good tips on doing the design and the thread work. I would look at those for an idea of technique, other stuff research later.
The design sounds good, besides, it is yer idea, and who is gonna complain besides yerownself. (altho I am often my own worst critic.)
I have a couple of more good pix I may send you...

curley

[Advertising]

[Forty Rod]

I need to take a quick trip to Uselessinfoville.

Where can I find a listing of seed bead (and other beads, too) sizes in INCHES.  I don't do millimeters.  I was born before they were invented, and never learned them.  Found a source with colors I haven't seen anywhere else (kandrasbeads.com) and what appear to be very good prices.

I have some 12/0 and 14/0 beads, but want something a little larger, like 1/8 inch or so.  10/0 or 11/0 have been suggested, but no one can tell me how big they really are.

I'm getting down to the point where I'm gonna try beading my very nice rifle sheath (It turned out way better than I had any right to expect, considering I had no dang idea what I was doing.) and hope I don't bollix it up.

[Dalton Masterson]

Hey Forty Rod, just think of metrics this way. A Roosevelt dime, is pretty much 1mm thick. So stack up a few dimes to get the thickness you need, and viola!!!

DM

[Dr. Bob]

Forty Rod,

The smaller the number, the bigger the seed bead.  You might actually be looking for what is called "pony" beads.  In the Indian trade era, they were called pound beads, because they were packaged in brown paper in about 1 pound quantities.  They come in solid colours and with patterns.

[Gun Butcher]

 Spot on Doc. I was just going to say pony beads if he is looking for 1/8".

Forty, The colors you suggested would work fine. The predominent colors were white,black, red ,medium sky blue, and very dark blue in the 1800 to 1840 period after that many other colors became available and designs stared to change. The type of panels you are wanting to do would be fine and the Shosone did use a lazy stitch. I would look for a very dark red. I think what you have in mind would look great.

[ChuckBurrows]

The bead sizing method of 10/0, 11/0, 8/0, etc is simple: 12/0 means there are (nominally - few are exact)) 12 beads per inch so as GB noted 8/0 is the closest thing to a 1/8" bead

If you look at my work bead work you'll get an idea of what 8/0 pound beads look like when beaded up. 8/0 pound beads  were the most popular sized beads used by the western tribes pre-1850, although seed beads as small as 14/0 were imported and used as early as the late 1700's. The most common stitch pre-1850 amongst the western tribes was the lane stitch (formerly known as the lazy stitch) - During the early era of Plains/Transmontane beadwork the patterns were primarily versions of the earlier quill work. It wasn't until the mid-late 1840's that distinctive tribal styles of beadwork began to become recognizable, the Crow and Cheyenne being two of the earliest distinctive styles with the Crows developing much of their style based on their painted parfleche designs.

PS Forty Rod I'd love to have that Colt Loading page - my snail mail address is on my website if thats how you want to send it.

And FWIW - I get most of my beads from Crazy Crow - really like the French Old Time Colors, but they are getting in short supplys so amd starting to use the German Old Time Colors.

[JohnR]

If you are going for an early look - anything pre-1900 - DO NOT USE BLACK.  It was a very difficult color to come up with a chemical composition to create black in a glass bead.  Old beads that APPEAR to be black in photographs, are actually a very dark blue, often called "cobalt".  Modern black seed beads, especially in the larger sizes, are stark black.  IMO, they actually detract from a piece.  When looking at an actual piece of beadwork rather than a photograph, the difference is obvious.

Size 8/0, or pound beads, as recommended by others are easy to work with, although my personal preference is smaller.  In that size, the irregularities between colors of the same "size" you will find in smaller beads are not as pronounced.  French or German old time colors are the cat's meow, since the old Italian beads are almost impossible to find in the right colors and prohibitively expensive when found.

[ChuckBurrows]

If you are going for an early look - anything pre-1900 - DO NOT USE BLACK

Well sir with all due respect, but black beads are listed BY COLOR on trade lists as early as the 1820's and show up on later bead cards, listed as black - this is NOT an interpretation of color by sight, but actual documentation as being sold as black. Plus I've personally seen several pieces that are undoubtedly black and not aged cobalt which as you noted once you recognize it is easy to discern the difference.
Like you I have been studying pre-1900 (mostly pre-1860) beadwork for close to 50 years and have had the very good luck to examine first hand a lot of original work, both in museums and in private collections.

[JohnR]

Well sir with all due respect, but black beads are listed BY COLOR on trade lists as early as the 1820's and show up on later bead cards, listed as black - this is NOT an interpretation of color by sight, but actual documentation as being sold as black. Plus I've personally seen several pieces that are undoubtedly black and not aged cobalt which as you noted once you recognize it is easy to discern the difference.
Like you I have been studying pre-1900 (mostly pre-1860) beadwork for close to 50 years and have had the very good luck to examine first hand a lot of original work, both in museums and in private collections.

It is not my intention to start an argument but rather to be helpful.  So with all due respect in return, I'll amend my post by saying "black is not common in early beadwork (pre-1900).  Listed "by color" as black is not the same as actually being black.  You mention "later" bead cards and yes, by the late 1800s truer black began to show up on bead cards and even that was often not truly black.  Many old pieces look black until you hold them up to the light or shine a very bright light on them - then you can tell they are not in fact black.  I didn't say anything about "aged" cobalt.  I said what passes for black is often called cobalt.  Glass beads, other than modern Japanese beads that are dyed, do not generally "age".

In all of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of pre-1900 pieces I've owned, bought, sold, examined and photographed in both private collections and museums, including the Museum of the American Indian (Heye Foundation) and Smithsonian collections, I've never seen a truly black "seed bead" in any of them.  The Lewis and Clark collection in the Smithsonian features an early buckskin dress, probably Blackfoot in origin, with blue and white beads, listed as "black and white".

The black beads available today are truly black and stand out starkly - just as the whites are too white. 

[GunClick Rick]

Interesting,so if a feller wants to look for work that is original what would the untrained eye look for under the magnifying glass as far as seed beads?These were found a mile east of where i live,feels like soapstone and the shell ones,can't search there anymore,father in law found these around the late 60s i believe..I restrung some of them.The dark green disk one i found when workin for the road dept,in the ground under some old sidewalk we tore up,i have no idea what it is or made of,it was about 2 inches in the dirt where i was raking and shoveling.Disregard the little turquoise ones of course..

[Kid Terico]

GC you have more darn DODADS.  KT

[Curley Cole]

Here are a couple of pix I had sent 4Trod to study, and on some of the images if you zoom in, it looks like some of the beads are in fact black. Probably not a BLACK as we currently know, but a more muted black.

hope you enjoy the pix and I for one would love to have a pair of mocs and that 66

curley

[FEATHERS]

G'Day Forty Rod,I do a lot of beadwork (loom & stitch) & in keeping your rifle bag truly authentic,try looking for a book I have,Guide to Indian Quillworking by Christy Ann Hensler,it has some beautiful examples of pre beads as well as including beadwork with the quillwork.I would love to try to do quillwork but living in Australia I am yet to find a source that will send quills over here.The book includes step by step instructions & it looks just as easy as beadwork.Feathers.

[Forty Rod]

PS Forty Rod I'd love to have that Colt Loading page - my snail mail address is on my website if thats how you want to send it.

I'll get it out early next week.

Went to OCB Trading Post in Glendora this morning and got almost all the beads I need.  The 18/0 are exactly what I was looking for.  They solved the black bead question for me by being out of them in 8/0.  Didn't have any cobalt blue, either.

Guess as soon as my kids get out of the house next Sunday I'll give it a shot.

BTW black beads are too black and white beads are too white for my taste.  I may go with cream and some dark charcoal that look better.

What is "trade cloth" and was felt used back then?

(And here you thought I'd run out of questions.)

[JohnR]

Generically speaking, trade cloth was a coarse woven wool cloth.  Early trade wool had a rather ragged selvage edge and a sort of a ragged sawtooth undyed stripe on the selvage.  This was the result of the dying process, and is often called "saved list" cloth.  More modern versions have a variety of colored stripes woven in to the selvage edge, and is usually very finely woven and rather pricey.  Reproductions of the old "saved list" cloth are available, also pretty pricey.

Unless you need the colored (or undyed) selvage, and I can't imagine why you might for your rifle case, any coarse woven wool cloth - roughly shirt weight or a bit heavier - would work well for you.  I buy remnants at a fabric warehouse store.  It's much cheaper than buying trade cloth and works just as well.  If you are going to bead on it, back it with two or three layers of brown paper sack or a piece of light canvas.  Felt is a poor substitute as it won't hold up well at all.  Most felt available today is acrylic - it's difficult to find the old wool felt and even it was rather fragile in use and a poor surface to bead on.

You can find pictures of a variety of trade cloth on Crazy Crow's website.

[GunClick Rick]

GC you have more darn DODADS.  KT


There's a country song there somewhere.Can ya tell i quit drinkin 35 years ago?You can bet i have alot of good memories about alot of good folks.

[Curley Cole]

Damn 4T, ya should a tolt me you were goin to OCB, I woulda gone with ya and helped you harass the ladies there. Got lotta cool stuff don't they?

curley

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Howdy All

      What a great information pool we have here, and welcome to the Leather Shop JohnR, were happy to have you join in with us, I can see you have a lot to offer with your back ground.
    
      And Gun Slick Rick, you do have more DO DADS than any one person I know.


                        Regards

                    tEN wOLVES