.31 Caliber Cap and Ball

[Itchy Triggerfinger]

I sold my 1849 Colt .31 Replica some time back, because I had no real arena in which to shoot the gun.  The only exception to this was a once in a blue moon side match.  I would love to have a reason to own one again.  I read somewhere that more them were manufactured back in the day because they were so concealable.

Is this a legal caliber to use as a "Black Powder Shootist"?  Note not a gamer  , I want to shoot two rounds out of it along with one of my Lemats (8 shot).

I did not notice black powder calibers listed in the By Laws, but then I have a nasty habit of skimming thru documentation.

Shameless

[Itchy Triggerfinger]

Is 31 caliber cap and ball verbotten?

[French Jack]

Verboten?  Not in NCOWS.

[Advertising]

[Itchy Triggerfinger]

Vunderbar!

[Trinity]

Was ist wunderbar?  Ich versteh' nicht.

[Black River Smith]

I read your post and was going to answer with the proper by-laws governing the '49 or 31 percussion caliber but then I re-read your posting.

Are you proposing to use the '49 as part of your main match shooting?  8 shots from Lemat and then follow-up with the other 2 shots from the '49. This fulfilling a 10 round shot string(two gun shooting).

If this is correct then your asking if a pocket pistol counts as a main match gun.  Correct??

[French Jack]

BRS-- I see nothing in our Bylaws prohibiting use of the 49 as a main match pistol.  We do not restrict except for the use of .22 rimfires.  As long as he has enough loads to go around the required targets, it is not a problem.  Actually, he may be More Authentic using one in combination with a LeMat.  Too bad the LeMat only has one shotgun barrel! 

[Fox Creek Kid]

The only hook is that you will probably have to cap your 2nd percussion pistol on the clock.

[French Jack]

There is no reason if no more than the number of rounds required for the stage for pistol are loaded in the LeMat and the 49, they would
not be capped at the loading table.

[Black River Smith]

WOW,

I did not realize that Blackpowder shootist could use a pocket pistol as a regular match gun.  No, it does not state that the '49 does not qualify but then the '49 is not listed in the approved list but then again neither are any of the percussion '51, '60, '61 handguns.  They are givens.

But does the fact that it is a pocket pistol size mean that the barrel must only be 4" or less still.  Or since it is being used as a standard match gun(not pocket pistol requirement) mean the barrel can be as standard issue and therefore up to 6"?

Now possibly my '49 with 6" barrel and all the '49's, '62's  and conversions-of can have a home.

Or is it more of a shot count issue that it can be used in this instance?

So if someone wanted to use 2 49's or 2 '62 conversions in the main match they 'could' and just take 2 misses all the time.  That really opens up NCOWS for a lot of people and for the fun of it.  Not a lot of expensive guns to start shooting then.

Learned somethin new.

Thanks

[Fox Creek Kid]

Since the '49 is a five shooter would you not be able to load but 4 chambers? I don't think any posse is going to let you load ALL the chambers on a percussion gun at the loading table.

[Itchy Triggerfinger]

Nope, jest the two rounds in a pocket pistol along with a LeMat.

I have heard of another venue club that let a guy cap all 10 on a LeMat, but I think the two extra shot thing would be safer.  I use a patched Minie Ball in the shotgun barrel.  It do make the target sang like a church bell. 

It's kind of a non issue with me at present cause I need to buy a pocket pistol (lack of coinage).  I sold my '49 cause I could not use it that often.  I actually have two LeMat's and am having a holster made presently.  Soooooooo short term I can do 5 and 5 using one of my other 44's or 8 and 2.  My twisted lizard self enjoys shooting 8 rounds from one pistol.

Using a 5 shot Paterson and there are other 5 shot .36 calibers that have a notch between cylinders, other venues, allow the use of a fully loaded gun.

I am not speedy quick.  I am thinking that someone who IS speedy quick might have an advantage of shooting two pocket pistols would have an advantage if they loaded all five.  Making a shooter cap on the clock with a 5 shot would take away this advantage.  OR make sure to add pistol knockdowns to any Regional "Brag about it 'cause I won event".  But then, a body could switch gunz . . . 

Pocket pistols might also be fun for the ladies to shoot . . .  We have to consider the ladies, cause I am the ladies man.

Whatever you guys feel like should be the rule will be fine with me.  I also should/will talk to my club leadership.

Shameless, the craven curr that shot me with a pocket pistol!

P.S. I been reading about the 'lil Remmie .31 being accurate and fun to shoot.  Soooo many guns, one can't have enough of them IF they do get trigger time.  I don't have the means to buy guns I am not going to shoot.

 

[French Jack]

BRS-- The barrel length standard was only applied to "Pocket Pistols", in so far as that particular use in a stage requiring one.  There is no prohibition regarding the barrel length or usage of a small frame pistol as a main match pistol other than it be an approved firearm and caliber/cartridge.  The small frame percussion revolvers fit the bill in all particulars. 

They can also be loaded with 5 rounds if there is the option of placing the hammer down safely between chambers.  That is allowed per the Bylaws.

We simply  do not see this practiced much, for the most part because the small frame revolvers owned by most members are cartridge revolvers, and originals to boot, so are used sparingly to preserve them as much as possible.  With the replica small frame percussion revolvers, this is not a factor.  I would have to say, if you have them, use them.  The only caveat is they might not fare well with knockdown targets,  but otherwise, they will ring steel.

[Trap]

   Always thought 2 Lemats would be great for pistoleer. The Lemats and a rifle is all you would need.

[River City John]

                         "POCKET PISTOL
Any approved hand gun with 4 inch barrel or shorter; any approved pistol caliber."

(We'd wrestled with the definition of a 'pocket pistol' for a number of years.)
Interesting that the above ad breaks the designations down by weight and caliber only,- the larger the caliber the heavier the firearm, presumably.
A Pocket Pistol was the .31 cal., any barrel length from 3"-6";
A Belt Pistol was .36 cal.;
A Holster Pistol was .44 cal.

Of course, this most likely may be a convention Mr. Colt used in sales literature to define the three calibers he offered.
But I can't help breathing a little sigh of longing for the simplicity of it.  

The Main Match pistol caliber is not really specified. Only .22 cal. is the exception.  Any caliber or firearm design of the period is a given, so no reason to specifically site percussion pistol examples in the By-Laws. (Although, in other posts, the mention of brass-framed Remingtons and the .44 cal. Colt clone have raised some questions, as technically they are a modern creation. Closest to the actual history would be the Confederate brass-framed .36 cal. Griswold & Gunnison and the .36 cal. Spiller & Burr, both of which are offered as reproductions. But again, the By-Laws are specific- muzzle loading firearms are to be original or authentic reproductions of the period.)

As French Jack said, knockdown power would be the issue. That and the fact that Spotters even have trouble with scoring a .36 cal. percussion hit sometimes, through the smoke and the roar, due to lack of a powerful enough register on a fixed target. I've shot many matches using my .36's where I was glad we use the convention where if the Spotters don't all agree, then the majority opinion favors the shooter.  

[Black River Smith]

I guess I am still confused about pocket, original pattern percussion and main match.

Here are some statements made last year(08) and earlier about pockets barrel length; number of rounds for main match guns.

So when did the logic and thinking change?  Most comments come from people presently posting:


However not all would be legal as main stage guns unless they have 6 round cylinders that would allow loading 5 and still have a empty chamber.

In my experience (about 10-11 years as well) with NCOWS, the PP was not intended to serve as the second handgun for matches.

by definition, include as pocket pistols such revolvers as the "1862 .36 Cal. Pocket Pistol" with a 6 1/2" barrel solely because Colt chose to refer to it as a "Pocket Pistol". That gun has an overall length of 12", whereas the 1851 & 1861 .36 cal. Colt BELT pistol has an overall length of 13".   For OUR purposes the distinction between Main Match Pistol and Pocket Pistol  needs to be more than just one inch.


If it is a 6 shot revolver, it would be NCOWS legal as a main match revolver in any category.  If it is a 5 shooter you can use it as a pocket pistol if it meets the size standards in the bylaws.


Just want to understand what is being followed?  Comments come from search of this open forum.

It has been a long time since I have been around, I must be missing something.  If you are broadening the options, as long as they stay within the realm of authentic design, timeframe, and probability of occurance, than I applaud the move.   

Just want to come up to date.

Thanks

[French Jack]

BRS--
The options have always been there, the definition of main match pistols has always been extremely broad in our Bylaws.  Only .22 rimfires have been ruled out, except for specialty shoots or their use as a "Pocket Pistol".  Pocket pistol referring to the use of a handgun meeting the rather generous criteria we know and love, but used in a stage or side match as a concealed firearm.

The truth of the matter is, since we left the barn door open except for barrel length, and approved caliber, we can fit just about anything into the "Pocket Pistol".  Since the matches seem to call for use of a pocket pistol less and less these days, that may be a moot point. 

The number of shots available would not apply, as our Bylaws do not specify number of rounds required for approval.  We tend to think of 5 shots in a 6 shot revolver, because of customary usage, primarily due to another "Organization".  However, our rules allow cylinders to be fully loaded IF the piece can be safely carried with the hammer down.  Maybe we should all procure a Walch Navy, which had 12 shots available when fully charged, and then we could certainly handle the 10-10-4 stages we have all grown to dislike.

I think in our rush to judgement, some practices and rules of another group creep in and color our viewpoint of our own rules and Bylaws.  In actuality, the freedom of choice we have available to us in regards to firearms and options in their use is HUGE.  Whether or not we choose to avail ourselves of that is up to the individual posse in designing their matches.

Hope to see you at the Convention in March, I would enjoy sitting down and visiting with you as usual.  Do you know if Marlan is planning on being there? 

Best regards, and break out those pistols and come shoot with us.

[Black River Smith]

Thanks for the time and added explanation.

Yes it would be nice to see everyone again, it has been a year since being around.  I probably will not make the Convention.  Sorry, do not know what Marlans plans are.

Again thanks for the info.

Good thing I did not try to answer Itchy's question.  Just ask his intent.