Magor Mess up on my part, but could use help Please!Added H.S.reading

[Ace Lungger]

Howdy Pards,
 Those of you that have been helping and reading please jump in here, I would like to get this all worked out!
When I set this load up, What I did was pushed a bullet into a empty case just so I could get the block  closed,  then I opened the breech and put my thumb on the case and had my friend push a dowel rod down the muzzel untill it touch the point of the bullet, and then he made a mark on the dowel rod, the i ejected the case and pulled the bullet, and whe did it all over again, Then we took the diff between the marks on the dowel rod, and that is how we came up with the 57 gr and the 60th wad. The reason I left the bullet out is that a lot of BPCR shooters push seat there bullets! I got my calipers out just like you guys told me to do, and they measured 2.968, so I reseated the bullets a little deeper and, at a 2.960there go right in.
  What I need, is some one that shoots a 500gr Postell bullet in a 45-70 and give me there lenght? The books all show round nose, flat nose, ect. at 2.550! If I seat my bullets at 2.550 there will be 46thou jump befor the touch the lands!!

 I could realy use some major help I hope that Steel Horse, and FJ, and Gw, and others will jump in and help me figure this out?

I would be very greatfull!!
ACE

[Ranch 13]

The col on most of my long range loads run around 2.9.
 Don't sweat the long jump so much as just make darn sure the powder , wad and bullet are all in firm contact with each other.
 I don't think you can get good contact with the bullet at a 2.9 ish length with anything much short of 65 grs of 2f, so if you're going to shoot the lite charges you'll need to seat deeper.
 Also beware that shooting those lite charges will likely cause more fouling than the heavier charges.

[Ace Lungger]

Ranch13, i forgot to mentioned that I was using a 60thou wad, I then I will pull all that i have loaded, and move it up to 60gr, I know that is a light load, I have no L3 disc, L4 Disc, L5 Disc, that is why I have to use a light load!
 If you have any other congressions I would be great full!
Thanks ACE

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[Ranch 13]

No point to pull those rounds, just make sure the bullet and wad are on the powder and let em rip. BP is a real big pain to dig back out of the case when it comes necessary to pull down a round.

[French Jack]

I don't know what the throat on your rifle is, but sounds as if you have come up with an O.A.L. that will just kiss the rifling.  That is a good starting point.  I would seat a bullet in an empty case to that length, mark the bullet, then withdraw and measure the portion that was in the case.  That will give you a length to work with on your loads.  I usually mark a dowel rod that length, then use it to guage the powder and wad in the case.  Your case capacity will vary, depending on the make of brass, and the amount of compression so you may have to experiment with powder weights to achieve the proper load level.  Whatever you come up with is the starting point for your rifle.  Once you have gotten to this point, if your accuracy is not suitable, you can vary one thing at a time until you get the best load for your rifle.

Try the Lee dippers, you can go with them sometimes, or if you don't find the correct size, I usually cut down an empty case and solder a ring in the primer pocket for a thong or a piece of wire around the base for a handle.  That is the easiest way to get a dipper for the exact load you need.

[Grogan]

Hey Ace,

You don't say (although somewhere you might have said, and I missed it) how much your Sharps replica weighs?

[Grogan]

Ace,

I haven't seen where you've mentioned what BRAND of Powder you're using?

If you're using GOEX powder, most shooters find that it works best with ~.100" of compression.

Assuming you're going to compress your powder, no matter what the load, and you also want to close up the gap between your current .046" and the rifling, say .005" to .003" or even 0, you're going to have to insert either more wadding OR more powder.

You can compress your powder, up to ~.100" when you seat your bullet without deforming it.

Anything more than that then you want to use a Compression Die to first compress your powder, then seat your bullet resting on the compressed wad/s.

Also it seems that your reading of .046" may be close, but it might not be exact.  Using a dowel and making a mark, then measuring it with calipers might be "minute of dowel" accurate.  Just the mark, the width of the mark and how the mark is placed onto the dowel can have some inaccuracy built into it.  Remember that .003" is ~the thickness of the average human hair.

You might be better off finding a case that drops in/out of your chamber easily.  Then make sure there's just enough neck tension on that case to allow a bullet to be pushed in but to offer a little resistance.  Then start with the bullet seated far out (don't worry about any powder at this point) and push the cartridge into your chamber and close your breech.  Then open it and use a cleaning rod or your dowel to gently push your dummy round back out.  (I'd do this with the rifle sitting horizontal the entire time).   Now, this dummy round's measurement SHOULD BE your "0 Clearance" point, indicating where your bullet engages the rifling.

Personally, I'd then subtract ~.005" from this measurement and start there as my seating depth.  You'll have to measure your powder, wads and any compression to figure  out how much of either one of those you're going to put into your case under your bullet.

[Grogan]

Another thought here also centers around WHERE your bullet design "likes" to be seated.

It could turn out that in order for your bullet to be seated out far enough to be close to touching the rifling, it may expose one or more Grease Grooves?

In the case of competition BPCR shooters this is what they may do.  It allows them to get as MUCH powder into their cases as possible.

However, from a practical "field" standpoint, this may not be a good thing to copy.

You're not going to want to be using cartridges loaded so that the grease can either be rubbed out of the grease grooves nor allowed to collect dirt or grime, so your grease grooves want to be INSIDE the case walls.

As you know, changing the relative position of the bullet to the chamber's Leade may affect accuracy.

Where the exact setting is "best" has to be determined by trial and error.

And I'd go further and say this.

If you don't have a relatively powerful scope mounted on your rifle (and most BPCR shooters don't), and I'm saying something in the 15X to 20X range, you're really not going to know all that well.

Iron sights, are "sufficient" for good "Buffalo" (even large Match sized centers) accuracy.

But they're not really going to tell you that much about "tack driving" accuracy while working on loads and bullet settings etc.

For an example I cite a couple of my varmint shooting rifles.  One, a .223, can shoot "dime sized" groups all day long.  It does this with the aid of a 16X scope I have mounted on the rifle.  At 100 yards, I can see the bullet holes as they get punched into the target.  I can aim on the hole I just shot, if I want (but usually find more consistency if I aim at a sighting point ala Bench Rest style).

So what I'm saying is if you're using your Iron Sights, especially your Rear Barrel Sight, you're going to see ~2 MOA accuracy, best case!  (I know, others will argue this with me, but I contend that "conditions", lighting, your eyes, your ability to "see" things exactly the same over different days, and "line up" your sights EXACTLY the same shot after shot using Iron Sights is going to vary.  You'll have days you shoot better and others, worse.  And it won't have anything to do with the rifle itself!)

So, while ppl here can make recommendations of things to try, maybe where to start, only you trying this, by trial and error, are really going to figure it out.

I also guess I'm asking HOW accurate do you anticipate you need to be?

I think I'd try just loading up some rounds and getting out there and shooting your rifle and seeing how you/it shoot.

Then, if you think it needs some improvement, you can start from that baseline and work on improvement.

I really don't think you can pre-plan (best) accuracy out in advance.

[Ace Lungger]

Thanks Gordon for all the Help and advice, the rifle weighs about 9 1/2lbs, I am shooting Goex for the next 30 rounds, and I am switching to the German powder FFG. I am not putting any lube in the top groove!
 I chhecked the head space, there was a reading of .99 it didn't go to the 1 . With a good tape it isn't quite 3/32 So is myy head space okay? The next batch I will bumb it up to 60 grains.
Tell what you think Please.
ACE

[Grogan]

I think Headspace on a Straight Wall Rimmed case is determined by the Rim.

[Ace Lungger]

 :)Everything about the rifle is okay> It all was shooter error, and the reason I have having trouble groping was casting persin, both the same guy (ME) I should have everthing worked out, when i get my Tin in.
Thanks for all the help!
ACE

[drcook]

Here is a really good way to determine OAL

go to Lowe's or whatever store you have by you and buy a 48" 3/8 hardwood dowel. Then over in the
hardware dept they sell 1" dia by 3/8 inside dia nylon (plastic) rings that are 3/8" thick. Drill and tap for a
#6 thread (or something approx that size) flat blade set screw.

put both rings on the rod.

with rifle empty slide rod down till it touches the breechblock
slide both rings till they are tight against the muzzle
tighten the outermost set screw

this part is easier if you have a helper

insert a bullet and using something (I use a pencil with the erasor end, or anything that won't cause
damage) to hold the bullet as far in the chamber as it will go without jamming it into the rifling

slide the rod down again until it touches the bullet nose

slide the innermost ring until it touches the muzzle and tighten it down

using dial calipers, measure the distance between the 2 rings, this is the cartridge OAL with the
driving band just touching the rifling

this works because you are offsetting both measurement points by 3/8" from the innermost ring.

you can do it with 1 ring and simply measure to the muzzle, but I think this way is easier

dc

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Even simpler!  Same dowel; 1. insert dowel against the closed breach & mark with a pencil.  2.  Open breach and shove in your bullet, then the dowel goes back down and a second pencil mark.  Robert's your Father's brother!

I would have used the same dowel to give the bullet a slight knock on the base.  It will stick in the throat without actually being engraved by the leade.

[drcook]

Sir Charles,

the following is an explanation not a criticism   

the reason I use the rings is I am controlling the loading dimensions of my cartridges to a couple .001's.
I depth mic to the compressed powder. I mic the wads and mic the bullets and measure the cases.
I use a micrometer adjustable seaters (Redding Competition) to set the bullet right down on the wad
without any bullet distortion and it also achieves a .0015 to a .002 measured runout of the bullet to
the case. there are other brands of these precision seaters others use

I use a Belding & Mull to drop powder before going to the beam scale and then drop tubing into the
case before compression.

all in the name of ringing all the inherent accuracy potential from a BPCR rifle and controlling the variables

I have a rifle that one weekend shot a 1 1/8 200 yd 5 shot group and the next couldn't keep it on an
8 inch circle at 235 yds

nearest I can figure is the cases got hard and needed annealed. I am saving my pennies for a Ken Light
annealer.

either that I just couldn't:

a. hit a bull in the a** with a base fiddle
b. hit the side of a barn with a shotgun, 

that weekend 

as I said in the post on the 45-100's, I see some of the fine folks from the other BPCR boards have
drifted over and they know also first hand how the slightest chg can cause you to start missing at
the long ranges some of the shoots entail

regards
dc