Fire-forming 45-75 Winchester to 45-75 Uberti--Potential Danger??

[McLernon]

The 45-75 Winchester has a much longer neck than a 45-75 Uberti(Uberti version of the Winny) so that when a new 45-75 Winchester case is chambered in a Uberti there is a significant air space between the case and the chamber. If loaded with BP will this result in a pressure spike akin to that experienced when not seating the bullet right down on the powder? I don't know, so when I blow these cases out to the Uberti chamber I will use a light load of 5744 instead of BP.

Any thoughts or opinions would be welcome

Mc

[larryo_1]

Well, I call it "Fire-forming" and what I do is put about 16 grains of Bullseye in and then fill with cornmeal and top off with a bees wax plug and fire the case.  It comes out looking like it should with no ill after effects.  You are correct in that the original cases are of different shape than the Uberti ones.  I checked out case capacities and there is about 5-6 grains difference between a Uberti case and an unfilred original.  So, I sure don't think that I would want to try a full load in an unfired case before filre-forming it but that is just my own humble opinion.  I have fire-formed all the brass that I have and am satisfied with the results.

[McLernon]

Good idea Larryo.

Maybe I'll give it a try. Any ideas about other suitable powders. Don't have Bullseye. Not sure what an equivalent would be to get the case to fire-form properly. Any ideas?

Thanks

Mc

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[Russian]

What?  Say it ain't so.     I just bought a Cimarron/Uberti 1876 and wanted to use my Bertram brass in it.  Why the heck does the Uberti have a diff chamber?  And where the heck does one buy 45-75 Uberti 

[McLernon]

The 1876 Uberti can be purchased at Buffalo Arms in Idaho.

Mc

[larryo_1]

I, myself, ran out of Bulleye and being cheap, dug out a can of "Titegroup" that I have for my 1911.  I put in about 20 grains of that stuff and it worked just as good as Bullseye.  As far as I am concerned, I think that the fire-formed "Uberti" case looks "prettier" than the original shape anyway.  I got a bunch of 50-90 Sharps cases that I did this to and they all are in great shape.  I anneal before forming and then at about the 5th to 10th shot so that the mouths dont get hard.  I got 20 rounds of Bertram brass ($OUCH) and did the same to them.  This morning, I shot 5 of them loaded with 75 grains of Swiss 1½ and the only thing that impressed me was the recoil.  I got thumped pretty hard.  I will stick to the best load which is 72 grains of Swiss 1½ under my Hoch 350 grain bullet.  Hope all this malarky helps somewhat.   

[Grizzly Adams]

What?  Say it ain't so.     I just bought a Cimarron/Uberti 1876 and wanted to use my Bertram brass in it.  Why the heck does the Uberti have a diff chamber?  And where the heck does one buy 45-75 Uberti 

No worries!   The first time you shoot it, it will be "Uberti."  

I suspect that what we are seeing here is the same thing we see in all of these bottle necked Winchester cases.  I have noted that my reloads look just like the original factory round, but once fired in my original 1876, they appear a bit different. ( Maybe a bit prettier! )   And yes, if I don't FL resize the case, the capacity is greater!  It is not the chamber - it is the nature of the beast!

For Example: 

Check out the difference in these two 38WCF rounds"  (Ok, I will get around to posting pics of 45-75 examples as well, but trust me, they show the same. What we are dealing with here is a "familly" of cartridges that share common characteristics. )



The one on the right is a factory load.  On the left is a reload.  Note the difference!  That is the way all 38WCF reloads look, unless you have a custom set of dies made to reset the shoulder like the factory round.  (By the way, the same is true of the 44WCF.)  Now, if one was not familiar with reloading for the 38WCF, you might conclude that the chamber was different.    In addition, if you check the case capacity, you will find the reload has a greater capacity.   The original chambers don't fireform to the same shape as the original load unfired.  Why?  Because the chamber in these calibers does NOT match the dimensions of the case.  It is not a flaw, it is the way they are made. 

For those that may be interested, check out the article on the subject by Dave Scovill  in
Rifle magazine's Legacy of Leverguns.

I have no idea what Buffalo Arms is doing, but I am going to give them a call!  Seech!  This has been the story of these rifles since day one!  It's not easy reconstructing a lost technology!

Let me be clear.  I mean NO disrespect for anyone, but the purpose of this forum is to develop the knowledge base for the Model of 1876.  Most of the folks who were truly knowledgeable are dead!  We are rebuilding a knowledge base.  I would suggest that the paradigm we are working with may not fit the mold we are accustomed to.

I am off the the New Mexico Championships tomorrow at first light!  I really hate early mornings!  God bless.

[Russian]

No worries!   The first time you shoot it, it will be "Uberti."  

The original chambers don't fireform to the same shape as the original load unfired.  Why?  Because the chamber in these calibers does NOT match the dimensions of the case.  It is not a flaw, it is the way they are made. 

We are rebuilding a knowledge base.  I would suggest that the paradigm we are working with may not fit the mold we are accustomed to.

Thanks chaps, thats good to know.  And yes, when one expects a certain paradigm, it take a a bit to wrap the head around a new (old) one.

[McLernon]

The only problem with the shorter Uberti neck is it leaves part of the boolit protruding past the shoulder exposing the grease to the charge a bit. That is with the BACO 350 boolit(mould). Don't know if it matters. I have some loaded up ready to go. I'll keep you posted. Oh and another thing, I'll be using a blow tube in between shots and keeping the barrel cold so the fouling should stay soft. Accuracy will tell. Maybe I will need to go back to the lube cookie?  I don't know.

Mc

[Russian]

Everytime anyone mentions lube cookies I get a growl in my belly. 

I am using that expensive Bertram brass right now, so I don't know anything about neck size probs.....yet

[Grizzly Adams]

I tried "lube cookies" in my Sharps 45-70.  Near as I could tell, there was NO increase in lubrication.  However, they do make dandy little secondary projectiles!   I found them stuck to the target!

[john boy]

so when I blow these cases out to the Uberti chamber I will use a light load of 5744 instead of BP.

Gents, I've fireformed 350 cases to 45-75 resized from 348 cases which happen to have Sherman tank walls on them.

Started out fireforming with Unique and Red Dot which didn't do spit to make them pregnant.  So I loaded the cases that were not fireformed with 70gr of FFFg, put a bullet on top and a good crimp ... then shot em.  They got real pregnant - real fast, plus not one split case.

This is what a once fired - fireformed case looks like:

[McLernon]

I am going to try 16 gr of Bullseye with corn meal fill and a wax plug. Any comments on this for Starline brass?

PP eh?..............................intawesting. I would be very interested to hear how it works for you JB.

Mc

[larryo_1]

Mc:
I use this method on Bertram, W-W 348 brass and Starline 50-90 brass with no ill effects.  All come out ingreat shape.

[Hobie]

I would only add/emphasize that at some point you have to anneal.  The hard Starline brass (especially so) will split sometimes.  I prefer to anneal before the first firing.  Where in the process seems to be a matter of personal preference.

[larryo_1]

I thought that  I had mentioned that point.  I anneal my brass prior to fire-forming.  No splits yet!   

[Hobie]

I thought that  I had mentioned that point.  I anneal my brass prior to fire-forming.  No splits yet!   

Yes you did, I just couldn't remember where!  It is really important and I thought it was worth the risk of repeating.  REALLY important.