Original 1860 Spencer w/50 Cal Barrel Liner - Is Brazing Showing a Concern?

[John Morton]

Hello SSS,

 I own an original 1860 Spencer carbine converted to 56-50 at end of skimish. It has the 3 groove 50 cal barrel liner brazed in. At the lip of the chamber( at the bottom ) you can see some of the bronze/brass braze. My question is, is it common to see this? Does any one know or now of someone who would?






Pictures attached by Two Flints.

Thanks so much,

John     
PS  I want to shoot this piece (never have yet)and no gunsmiths in my area know anything about a Spencer (Idaho)     

[Trailrider]

According to Marcot's "Spencer Repeating Firearms", some of the M1860 Carbines were relined by drilling out the 6-groove .54 caliber (.56-56) barrels and relining with new .50 caliber (.56-50) sleeves, brazed into place.  Barrel lengths remained at 22 inches.  A Stabler cutoff was installed in all of these arms.  Since the stocks were refinished, most of the original CW cartrouces and markings were obliterated.  Markings stamped on the top of the receiver may or may not be still clear due to refinishing.  It would help to know what cartouces are stamped in the wood on the stock.  About 12,000 carbines were thusly reworked at Springfield.

Hope this helps.

[John Morton]

Thanks Trailrider for you response,

My piece has the proper "ESA" cartouche,and the other modifications they made (see additional two photos in my original post above). I am more concerned if it was normal for the braze to ooz out like that. The barrell and the receiver have the same serial #. I am thinking of safety issues. Do you know of a gunsmith who would have experience with this problem?

Thanks again,

John

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[Two Flints]

Additional comments by John Morton.

Hi Two Fints, I am not worried, as a new case sits in just fine (See attached pics), But when I showed the pic of the braze to Phil at S&S Firearms (where I inquired about ordering a centerfire block) he said he had never seen that much braze showing and to think twice before shooting it. He did not see the picture with the case in it. With as heavy as these are built it doesn't seem like a dangerous situation. I was trying to see if anybody else had seen exposed braze like this.







Thanks, John

[Harve Curry]

That is interesting to see the Starline 56-50 brass. But does the blade extractor remove it, and if it were a fired case?

[Trailrider]

Thanks Trailrider for you response,

My piece has the proper "ESA" cartouche,and the other modifications they made (see additional two photos in my original post above). I am more concerned if it was normal for the braze to ooz out like that. The barrell and the receiver have the same serial #. I am thinking of safety issues. Do you know of a gunsmith who would have experience with this problem?

Thanks again,

John

Howdy, again, Pard,

I frankly don't know of a gunsmith who would be able to give any assurances as to the safety of shooting this gun (or any other of that vintage).  I'm not sure if X-ray would detect voids in the brazing layer, even if you could be certain of the integrity of either the liner or the outer barrel itself.  Yes, I've shot Sharps .50-70 cartridge conversions, which also have brazed liners, and gotten away with it. I guess with age (65) I've gotten skitish about shooting these old guns. The thing about the Spencers and the Sharps is that their receivers are about 140+ years old.  They aren't really steel, but really what today we call "wrought" iron (then it was termed "malleable iron", which is a completely different critter by today's standards).

Aside from the purely safety aspect, should the gun blow, you'd be destroying a fine old antique.  I saw a gent destroy a scarce S&W New Model #3 in .44-40 (about 5,000 made in that caliber), in a Cowboy Action shoot.  He wasn't hurt, but the gun was reduced to a fishing weight (big fish)!     Real shame!

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I feel it is the right thing to recommend.  I'm strongly thinking about picking up a Taylor's Spencer in .44-40 (to match my pistols).

Ride CAREFUL, Pard,

[John Morton]

Howdy, again, Pard,

I frankly don't know of a gunsmith who would be able to give any assurances as to the safety of shooting this gun (or any other of that vintage).  I'm not sure if X-ray would detect voids in the brazing layer, even if you could be certain of the integrity of either the liner or the outer barrel itself.  Yes, I've shot Sharps .50-70 cartridge conversions, which also have brazed liners, and gotten away with it. I guess with age (65) I've gotten skitish about shooting these old guns. The thing about the Spencers and the Sharps is that their receivers are about 140+ years old.  They aren't really steel, but really what today we call "wrought" iron (then it was termed "malleable iron", which is a completely different critter by today's standards).

Aside from the purely safety aspect, should the gun blow, you'd be destroying a fine old antique.  I saw a gent destroy a scarce S&W New Model #3 in .44-40 (about 5,000 made in that caliber), in a Cowboy Action shoot.  He wasn't hurt, but the gun was reduced to a fishing weight (big fish)!     Real shame!

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I feel it is the right thing to recommend.  I'm strongly thinking about picking up a Taylor's Spencer in .44-40 (to match my pistols).

Ride CAREFUL, Pard,

Thanks, I do have a couple 44-40 revolvers ,an original 1873 Colt made in 1887, and a US ARMS, both 71/2" barrels  (I shootum both)so the Taylor Spencer is somthing to ponder on. Thanks again for you thoughts.

[Harve Curry]

Hello John Morton,
Looks like in your bottom picture the blade extractor might work. That would be good for some of us who shoot originals, me included. The only Spencer specialist I know is Larry Romano.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have seen a converted 1860 that had been drilled out and relined.  It had about the same amount of "ooze".  The owner shot it with .515 soft lead.  Seemed to work well.

[Arizona Trooper]

I don't think you'll have a problem as long as the bore is good and you stick to black powder. When Springfield lined these, they removed the barrels from the actions, taper bored them (bigger at the breech) and installed tapered sleeves. The sleeves were pressed into place, brazed and then final bored and rifled. The braze usually penetrated only a couple inches in from the ends of the barrel. If you look at a cut off '66 Springfield, you almost never see a ring of brass at the muzzle. That's because the actual brazed part has been cut off. I've never seen or heard of one starting loose, either in Spencers, Sharps, or '66 and '68 Trapdoors. Springfield knew what they were doing and had the best quality control there was at the time. Still, I'd have it checked out to be sure. If Larry says it's OK you can enjoy shooting your Spencer.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Ahh... I was talking with a trapdoor fanatic and brought this topic to his attention.

The answer has actually nothing to do with the extra brazing the flowed out as much as it is the headspacing.
(some 1866 trapdoor conversions were sloppy, the entire chamber behind the door was "golden brown" with brazing)

If the braze material starts to flake, then you might have problems.
Bad head spacing will make ANY gun a potential explosion stick.

A chamber cast is what he recommended for a next step and then see how far the bullet has to jump and how big the lands and groves are.

loose chamber + big bullet jump + bore rider bullet = potential ka-boom stick

The starline 56-50 brass case you have in there looks about perfect!!! If the extractor works as needed, your good to go...

[John Morton]

 Thanks for coment, the braze is not flaking, it is good and strong. John

[Bead Swinger]

The Starline 56-50 case looks like an excellent fit ; It will probably shoot well. It may or may not extract well.  My original (56-56) will only partially extract the modern 56-50 case, which yours looks like it will do as well or better.  The extraction problem comes as the case slides inside the frame while being extracted - there may be enough space for the starline case to budge to the side, and allow the knife extractor to slip past (or worse - jam) the case. Certainly not a safety issue, but it is a royal annoyance.

Try practicing the extraction - if you can throw a bunch of cases clear, then you're in great shape. If not, move to the 50-70 brass from Buffalo Arms or some other worthwile manufacturer. When I first tried out Starline brass, I left the primers out, and put bullets in them, and cycled lots and lots through the gun. Starlines (in my old girl) almost always got left in the breach - coming loose, and then falling back as the extractor blade passed it by. 50-70 cases don't, and the difference in the rim diameter is really small. I found it to be fun, and good practice anyway, as Spencers don't cycle well if you baby them, which most guests do when they first pick up the old girl.

Have fun! Spencers are the greatest. I hope you get to shoot her, and hope to hear about it.  Thanks for sharing the great pics.

On a seperate note...  How does this barrel-lining work today?  Are there decent gunsmiths out there who will re-line a bore?  Is this cost-prohibitive?  Why would you do this?  My 1860R Spencer is pretty good, but I have a shot-out M-1842 that could use it.

[ryder747]

Check out Bobby Hoyt in Pa. for barrel re-lining. He has a Mod. 1840 of mine right now and does plenty of this type of work.