gated R&D Conversion cylinder installation HELP

[Flinch Morningwood]

I am in the process of installing the R&D gated conversion on my Pietta 1851 .36 Navy Colt.

I have the gated peice fitted and the loading channel cut...and everything works fine until I install the cylinder...then I cannot fully cock the pistol and it locks up.  The hammer goes back about 95% of the way but just won't make that last bit needed to engage the trigger.  If I take the cylinder off, it cocks fine.

I am thinking the hand is a bit too long for the new configuration. Has anyone else had this problem and, if so, how did you fix it?

I have had to adjust the hand on a 1858 REM that I installed a conversion on (although that one was too short and the cylinder wouldn't lock in place) so I know this can be a tricky adjustment.  I ordered two more 1851 hands from VTI just in case. 

I tried to call R&D but they are on vacation till after the fourth....Any help from the group would be appreciated as I was hoping to shoot this gun this weekend....

Thanks!

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Little Al,
Check the hand slot on the back of the R&D recoil shield to make sure it lines up with the one in the frame, it may be in a bind when you have the cylinder installed. Does it fit both slots properly?

Bill

[Flinch Morningwood]

I don't remember there being a slot there...but I'll check...

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[Flint]

You said at 95% the pistol locks up.  Do you mean binds up, or does the bolt actually drop into the cylinder's notch?  Is the cylinder locked and aligned with the barrel?    If so, you need to adjust the nose of the hand until it stops trying to push the ratchet further than it needs to go.

First, make sure the rachet is clean and free of burrs, and that it's not overly sharp, sometimes R&D and Kirst cylinder rachets are more like a fluted end mill cutter than a gun part, they will dig into the hand and make things real messy inside.  The ratchet edge should slide across the hand surface and stop beside the lifted rachet tooth when the bolt locks.  If the hand is too wide at the fowdard edge, it will try to push the rachet tooth too far clockwise.

If you remove the hand and with your fingers, simulate the engagement.  Looking from the rear and holding the hand nose against the lower left tooth with a chamber at 6 and 12 o'clock, rotate the cylinder, keeping the hand engaged, up against the edge of the cylinder's arbor hole, as if the arbor was still there.  Keep the hand vertical to your original 6/12 o'clock line as it would be guided by the slot in the gun, don't rotate it with the cylinder.  You will see how the hand first pushes up on the left edge of the tooth,  and finally is essentially beside the tooth where it can't push any further upwards as the tooth is turning away to the right.  Taking a small chamfer off that right corner of the hand can sometimes solve the problem.  Of course, shortening it a bit may also be necessary. 

It is good to have spares on hand to retry after mistakes, and as it's a ported gun', you don't care that the percussion cylinder would now be out of time.

[Flinch Morningwood]

Thanks for all the input!

I went and shortened the hand as well as took a bit of the the point off last night.  I went slow - check, grind, check, grind, check, grind, polish.  I only had to shorten it about 1/32".

It works like charm now...I gotta say, working on these is pretty frustrating and satisfying at the same time...happily this one ended on satisfying....

Thanks again for the help!

[Rolinda Renegade]

Little Al    Your alife saver for posting this.  I have been getting my hind quarters kicked for about two weeks now trying to figure out what the problem was with the two conversions Im doing.  So You shortened the end of the hand.   Do you mean the top edge were it engages with the rachet on the cylinder or did you shorted the length of the tooth so its not as "pointy"??

Thanks for the help 

[Flinch Morningwood]

Actually I did both:

Shortening the LENGTH adjusts how far "up" the hand will go - this affects both the rotation of the cylinder and the ability of the hammer to lock into the full cock notch on the trigger.  You need to shorthen the hand enough to allow the hammer to be pulled all the way back into full cock but not so much that the cylinder doesn't rotate all the way into the locked postion.  It is a slow process of grind/check - like I said...Don't go too fast.

Grinding the point down affects how far the hand extends into the cylinder and, indirectly, how easy it is to free-spin on halfcock.  I took a little off and polished it up real fine...

It's not hard but, since you have two, I might order a spare hand from VTI "just in case."

Good luck and and let me know if you have any more questions...

[Flint]

You want the top flat surface of the hand parallel with the rachet tooth for full engagement at the start of the stroke, so don't tip the angle down at the front edge, keep it at the same angle it started at. A little tip upward is OK.  At the top of the stroke the hand is actually on the left side of the tooth it was pushing, with the right side of the hand against the tooth, as it turned clockwise viewed from the rear.  That helps hold the cylinder in place against the bolt.

In the case of S&W DA revolvers, that is a definite part of tuning the lockup, adjusting the width of the hand, which is even available in different thicknesses.  There is not such an adjustment on the Colt Single Action, unless the hand thickness pushes the cylinder too far clockwise for the bolt to enter the notch properly.  Most Colt types are not fitted that tightly for that to be a factor, so there is more rotational play when locked than some people like.

[Rolinda Renegade]

Little Al and Flint,    Thanks for the info, I will be working again on my mess of pistols on Wednesday.  I have a lot of things on my plate. lol   Thanks again for the help and I will post as to how they are comming.

[Andrew Quigley]

The only problem with adjusting the hand or lock is you can't swap back over to the c&b cylinder because of the adjustments. I had the same problem and adjusted the cylinder lock but was still having other issues so I sent it back to R&D. I shipped it on Thursday and it was completed and shipped back to me by the next Thursday!
 The tooth end of the cylinder was a tad to long I'm told. When I installed the old c&b cylinder it had cylinder play with the hammer at full cock. Should have left alone and R7D would have made the notches in the cylinder a bit wider.

[Rolinda Renegade]

Howdy Ya'll,


Thought I would let you guys know that I am finally done with both of my Conversions.  I got the first one done last wednesday and after an all day stretch I made the second work out today..  It was funny the first pistol I didnt have to take but just a little shave off the Hand to make it all work just right.   But I had to take almost a 1/4" off the second hand.   It just wasnt making it.   I loaded up some .38 sp with black powder tonight so I can see if they are going to be accurate.   I sure hope I've done a good enough job.  If these S.O.B.'s dont shoot straight Im gonna be madder than a blue belly on a "Missurra boat ride".