Belgium made 1960's Colt

[W.T.]

Why not getting a special interest sub-group started under STORM, call it like FROC: FINE REVOLVERES OF CENTAURE, to collect hard facts and exchange experience related to these Belgium made Colts?!
Bootsie

Second the motion!  I want a low FROC number...

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I thought about copying all the info from this thread to Word. and saving it. I wish AFA would respond to this thread, I'm sure he has lots of good Info to share.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Got The Auction Arms  Belgian Colt today and it is nicer than it was described, if it has been shot, probably no more than a cylinder if that, cause there is still blule in the chambers and that usually goes fast! Nice fit and finish, I'd say possibly 90-905% gun.

The s/n is just over 1/3 of the Quoted  60,000 production number, 18,4XX. It is  the rebated engraved cylinder 3 screw cut for shoulder stock model.

 Like Rifle says the hammer is crosshatched so you can thumbcock it.

[Advertising]

[Dusty Morningwood]

Why, oh why didn't I bid on that puppy when it kept closing with no bids!!    And a reserve of $200!! 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Heck I didn't even see it the first two times you talked about it going thru the auction or i'd have saved some money...maybe...LOL!

I gotta get off here and go play with the new Army.

There'll be oothers coming along I betcha, or at least I hope, Anyone know who got the last one on Gunbroker? it went for$265.00

[Cooleemee Edd]

Wow!  I bought an 1860 Colt reproduction IN Belgium (SHAPE Rod and Gun Club) in about 1972. It has the "Centaur" on it and is a great shooter. The hammer spring is a real pain in the thumb, though. Mine is cut for a shoulder stock, but I never got one. It is in perfect condition, although I have changed nipples on it a couple of times.

I have been thinking about seeing if I could get a conversion cylinder for it, but perhaps that would be a bad idea. Are these particularly valuable today?  I think that I should just lighten the spring and make this a part of my second-line CAS defense -"Frontier" or whatever it is called now.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

CE,
They are becoming so. They are sought after in Europe per Bootsie, and they are made of carbon steel, better than the Italian steels.

I don't know what conversion would fit it to begin with, but I'm sure one could be special built(OOOH lotsa Bucks). I'm gonna leave mine C & B.

My hammer spring in this one from Auction Arms will lift a dump truck bed, but not for long, as I'll lighten it some. I love the crosshatching or knurling on the hammer, makes it easy to thumbcock it even with the dumptruck spring.

Where did you find the nipples and are they US threads or metric? I'd guess if licensed by Colt they'd be US threads.

IMHO If you got one keep it, if you don't have one or three get them, they are just going to increase in value after the word spreads about them.

I got to shoot and handle the one Smokin_Gun sold to Rifle some time back. His was the first one I'd ever seen that I can recollect, but being a buckskinner in the Civile War Centennial time I probalby have seen them before but they were "too New" for my time period then.

[rifle]

I wonder about the comparison of the Belgian Colts and the "new" Uberti/Beretta/Benneli Colts. Uberti has started to make forged frames for Remingtons but I haven't heard about anything forged in the Colt repos. The Uberti's didn't seem to need forged frames that I've seen. Now and then one with a loose arbor pops up so maybe they could use a stronger frame. What I liked about the Belgian Colt was the harder steel of the barrel and cylinder. The Italians have been making the danged cylinders of the Colts like clay. The bolt springs have to be weakened so the bolt doesn't deform the cylinders. The bolt spring in that Belgian that I've sent Charlie was like a bear trap. So was the mainspring(no blow back problems there). The barrel wedge slot was in prime shape as were the cylinder notches. The steel could take the punishment. Too bad the Italians can't realize the metal they use may be good for manufacturing machining but not for longevity. One thing I advise,especially with Piettas) is to take a new gun apart and loosen the bolt spring at least 1/4 turn before the action has ever been cycled. The metal is so soft on those Pietta cylinders that the very first snaps of the bolt into the cylinder deforms metal. The Piettas also have the bolt head hit the notches too closer to the edge and metal is pushed into the edge effectively making the notch narrow and it becomes too small for the bolt head to get into the notch properly. Well, no such problems with the Belgian Colts. They do have harder steel. Like a gun should have. We should all petition the Italians to use some form of harder steel in the barrels and cylinders of the cap&ballers. The same steel they use in the cartridge guns. That way the Ubertis and the Piettas would be more evenly comparable to original Colts and Belgian Colt licensed Colts. I mean, why should we , in this day and age, have to eat crow and accept guns with soft sub grade steel?  The Italians should get thier stuff together with the steel of the cap&ballers.  Side note.....there was a metalurgy company some time ago that advertised the ability to harden the steel of the cap&ballers. The whole gun hardened. Wish they were still around. Or a company like them. I'd have the barrels and cylinders of all my sub grade(compared to the Belgian Colts) Italian Colts hardened. I'd like to know how to do it myself also. Can't get any answers from Italy about the type of steel used in the cap&ballers. Not even when conferring with A. Pietta(Alchemista on the forums).  Side note......referring to mention of converting a Belgian Colt to cartridge.....the barrels groove diameter of the one I measured was .445. That's a small bullet to load in a 45 case. A heeled bullet(Charlie knows about those) mould would have to be made that had the heel that fit a 44 case and an exposed part of the bullet at least .445. So.....since a Uberti cylinder( I should have swapped the Belgian cylinder for a Uberti in the gun I sent to Charlie ) works in a Belgian even though the Uberti percussion cylinder would be at least .450 chambers and the drop-in conversion cylinder from R&D would have at least .452 chambers throats. The barrels of the Belgians would be too small for a commercially made conversion cylinder and a little small for an Italian percussion cylinder. The percussion Italian cylinder could be used in a Belgian shooting balls and work fine I'd imagine(balls swagged to .450 in the Italian percussion chambers)even if the ball was .005 larger than the grooves of the Belgian barrel. I plan on using an Italian cylinder in the junker Belgian I'm going to restore. The original Belgian cylinder has notches that are about as battered as they get. Goes to show ya even a Belgian can be abused. The arbor is loose in my old gun and the barrel was filed off crooked at the bottom lug of the barrel and several other negative things. The arbor bent down at the wedge slot part is another. Needs a new arbor. The recoil shields ring that keeps the caps off the frame so they don't hit and chainfire is deformed by the cylinder hitting it also. Almost as bad as it gets for a cap&baller. I'll fix it though since I like it for some reason. Just smacks of "authenticity". I'll fix it and sell it to Charlie. 

[Cooleemee Edd]

I purchased mine new in Belgium in about 1972. It has the Centaur on it. It is a fine shooting weapon. The hammer spring will about break your thumb, though! It shoots great groups at 25 yards. I need to make a holster for it. I only recently found out that it is a "real" Colt!  It was worth every penny of the $75 I paid for it (as I recall it was no more than that.) Never had a holster to fit it, so there is no wear on it. I was trying to see if someone made a conversion cylinder for it, but now I think that perhaps I should keep it "as is" and just shoot it.

[Major 2]

I've read this thread with interest and have corresponded with  Boot... ah, Long John Wolf and WT.
I have had some experience with Belgians 1860's...
Years ago in the 80's & 90's we would have about 1/2 doz. or so of these from the Gun rental houses on the prop trailer.

One in particular, I recall had Ivory looking grips put on it , from a Hubley Texan 45 (1860 toy cap gun ).
This Belgian was used on the film The Sacketts , the two piece grips were not a perfect fit but close enough for a holstered prop.
I was not closely involved with the Prop Trailer on the N&S trilogy , but I'll bet they had some.
On Glory we had some, but the Guns used by Matthew Broderick & C. Elways were Uberti , mostly the Belgians remain unused or perhaps as a sidearm for some bit part player... but Reenactors supplied their own guns.
I remember seeing some on Ironclads I don't know if Kelly & Ray (prop-masters) issued them .
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. 
If there were some on the "Gettysburg" shoot , I don't recall , though "Ironclads" was two years later, so I'm guessing Kelly had some. Maybe on God & Generals too.
The hand guns used on "Into the West" were all from Taylor's & Uberti's & were purchased,
because by this time, the rental guns were really bad.

 
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
as a side note , there are at times a call in the script (orders) for "Safe" rubber guns ( close hand to hand stuff )  many Enfields & Springfield's , a few Sharps and lots of bayonets are cast from the real deal.
I recall a rubber Belgian , you can see the Made in Belgian in the butt , where it was cast from the real pistol.

I have the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " used by Casey Biggs as Travis....as he died swinging it on camera.

This thread has piked my interest ... I would not mind finding one in good condition.... 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I'll keep an eye out for one. The one on Auction arms right now is a bit rough and I'll not bid on it as it has to be transferred through an FFl due to idiotcy. Is that a word? or just a state of mind?
Try to find one that is 4 digits or less, I believe these are better made than the later guns. JMO!

[Long Johns Wolf]

Let me through in my 2 cents:
Today we assume that all variations of the Centaures without prefixes are numbered consecutively. We have a few fixes now to correlate S/Ns to year of production:
#1 is from 1960 when production began
#2484 was made early 1963
"Crown over R" mark was discontinued 1968
#7723 is the lowest number in my survey without the "Crown over R"
# 11298, 11431 and 1298 are from 1972
Highest S/N currently known from a publication is #51971. I assume that Fabriques D'Armes unies discontiued production of the Centaures around 1975. Incidentally, since one week we have proof that production of their remaining blackpowder line of flint lock and percussion pistols, shotguns and rifles was terminated early summer 1977!
Reports on quality issues are from the period 1972/73 but personally I have not seen one revolver with workmanship and/or function problems that can be traced back to the factory.
Currently our surveys includes completed data sheets from S/N 38 (lowest) to 18408 (highest), plus 1 pistol with a "C" prefix. At this point I am not in a position to correlate the latter one to a year of production but this specific gun has the "Crown over R" mark.
This indicates it was made before 1968.
Here is to say thanks a lot for your great support & rest assured there is more fascinating information about these Belgian Colts to surface.
Did I tell you Fabriques d'Armes were selling powder flasks and bullet molds for the revolvers? The former were made for them by well-known English Dixon & Sons. They feature clearer motifs (compared to Italian flasks), the marking is COLTS PATENTS as on the originals.
The bullet moulds have cavaties for one round and on conical ball. They were regularly made from blued steel but could be had in brass like the Italian ones.
Long Johns Wolf

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

LJW,
Thanks for the info update. I emailed Cooleme Ed and asked if you had sent him a questionaire yet.
My 2999 S/N is then between 1963 and 1968 because it has the Crown over R proof. My later gun is the latest you have the 18403
It does have some anomalies that the early(1968 or before) doesn't, but nothing terrible, just a couple finishing boo-boo's about the Centaur and a hand slot in the frame that looks like the inside of a squirrel tree, due to a forging malfunction or amachining mishap or possibly both. I have that fixed, also there was a machining bur on the back side of the slot that made the handspring want to catch upon and jump. I smoothed that out too. There is one nipple that is offset in the cylinder, but it does no harm. The rest of the gun is fine.
However, that being said, the later S/N gun shoots as good as the early(1968 or before) gun. I like them both. I'll probably buy another if it is in the condition of either of mine.


Did I relate that I have a copy of Edwards Book with the Chapter about these Centaur Colts in it.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I was just reading William B. Edwards"Civil war Guns", about theCentaur/Centennial  replica's. He states that the cylinders were plain up to about S/N 1400 then all had the Naval engagement scene. S/n'd from 1 up # screw frame cut for Stock and notched toe on butt.

He states that the civilian models were s/n'd from 1 on up but prefixed with a C (C1,C2, C3, etc) and that the cylinders were engraved with the simple engraving without the fine detail, and that the first 500 of these guns had the "Engaged 16 May 1843" but that they quit because some US gun collectors (Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc BOD) were afraid that these could be faked and sold as "real" Colts. These Civilian models had no cuts for stock, not toes in the butt and that the gripframes were silvered. 

He adds that in the spring of 1961 the Fluted model first appeared S/N in their own series again starting at 1 with the F prefix. William also relates that F1 was presented to him with a butt stock. He later sold it at a gun show in Ohio.

So this very simply tells us that each variation has it's own S/N range beginning at 1  and going up, with or without a prefix letter.

So it appears that the one cylinder I have seen with the non detailed engraving should be a C prefixed numbered gun and have or not the "Engaged 16 May 1843"(first 500) and........Silver plated Gripstrap and TG.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Halfway Creek Charlie and the campfire: I was enthusiastic at first when I read the Edwards book but remember his info/knowledge is from 1960/1961 because the book is from 1962.
It may well be that different variations had separate serial number blocks, with or without a prefix, during that early time.
It remains to be seen if this can be substantiated when more Centaures are inspected.
However, only 1 pistol surfaced so far, with a prefix (C). None of the fluted ones from which I have the data sheet has a prefix (F), my stainless fluted one does not have a prefix, the Marshall variation with the 5" barrel recently inspected does not have a prefix.
Highest S/N with rebated/plain cylinder is #12371 (data sheet)!
My current assumption regarding serial numbers after digestion of Bellingrath (1978), Edwards (1962), Modrau/Stavenhagen (1973), Stammel (1973) and Tyler (1972) is:
Pistols without prefix are numbered consecutively, no matter what the variation: lowest S/N 38 (data sheet), highest S/N 18408 (data sheet), highest S/N published 51971.
Pistols with prefix are numbered in separate blocks, beginning with that prefix.
Regarding rebated/plain vs. rebated/engraved cylinders: the majority of the European Centaures reported in the survey has the plain cylinder whereas the marjority of those reported from the US either has the proprietary or the Colt-type naval scene engraving. No fluted cylinder variation was reported from the US so far but quite a number from this side of the Atlantic, with 8" and 5" barrel.
We still have the pending question if Centaures are possibly numbered differently on your side and this side of the big pond.
So, early and preliminary findings of the survey are promising. We learnt a lot already but we have a long way to go and will learn more about this issue with every completed data sheet mailed to me.
Hopefully more solid conclusions can be drawn once the responses from my article in THE SHOOTIST (later this year) and in GUNS OF THE OLD WEST have been analyzed.
If one of you pards owns a Centaure or knows a pard who has one send me a PM and I will gladly provide you with the data sheet for compilation and analysis.
Long Johns Wolf

[Long Johns Wolf]

Rifle: according to the 2007 Uberti cataloque I obtained a couple of weeks ago their following pistols are listed of having forged frame and/or barrel:
Colt Paterson: frame & barrel
Colt Walker: frame & barrel
Colt 1848 Dragoon: frame & barrel
Colt 1862 Pocket Navy - 1862 Police: frame & barrel
Colt 1848 Baby Dragoon - Wells Fargo - 1849 Pocket: frame & barrel
Colt 1851 Navy: frame & barrel
Colt 1860 Army: frame & barrel
Colt 1861 Navy: frame & barrel
Remington 1858 New Improved Model Navy - Army: frame (but casted for stainless steel version; 1858 Target Revolver Carbine: frame casted steel!)
Long Johns Wolf

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

But What Edwards wrote about in 1962 was the Centennial Arms Guns marked Centennial (Arms)it is under this heading that he stated the S/N info. I truly believe that there are two different animals we are trying to collect info on. One the Centennial marked guns(probably only US imports) and the Centaur marked guns that are probably NOT US imports. I can fully understand these having different S/N 's, prefixes or not, and models for both respective markings.

I think we need to seperate these two markings and chase it that way. Centennial and Centaur. I think we will find that the s/n will not overlap between the maker marques. Then again I could be all wet. LOL

Me I'm looking for that F! Fluted Army with the buttstock that was sold in Ohio between spring 1961 and the time (before 1962) that Edwards wrote and published.......Do the phrase "Needle in a Haystack" ring a bell....LOL

[Long Johns Wolf]

Well Halfway Creek Charlie, I don't want to frustrate you but...we talk about the same animal.
"Centaure" is how the Europeans (me included) call the Belgian Colts made by Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege. They call them Centaure because of the Centaur logo on the left forward side of the frame.
Most of these Belgian Colts are marked "CENTENNIAL" on the barrel, either "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK, or CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" (with our without CHICAGO U.S.A.): I believe that's why my US pards call them "Centennials" or "Centennial Colts".
A few fully fluted specimen inspected have the barrel marking "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" only, i. e. without the CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK, one 5" Marshall with fully fluted cylinder has no marking on the barrel at all, see attached pic (but no such guns surfaced in the survey from US pards, so far).
Based on information collected I believe that Centennial Arms Corp. of Chicago was named after the pistol and not the other way round.
I agree with you that we should define a common name for the pistol to avoid misunderstandings.
But what all these Belgian Colts produced by Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege have visibly in common is the stylized centaur on the left forward side of the frame.
I wish you luck for your chase of #F1 with the matching stock. Please, send me pics for inspection. I have been told there is one factory engraved Belgian Colt, in the white finish, rebated cylinder, with silver (plated) centaur emblem in the grip, floating around at a German auction house. It is said to be proof tested but never fired...X fingers that we both succeed in our hunt.
Long Johns Wolf

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

OK that un befuddles me some. So the European and the US models are marked Centennial (or nothing) and the Centaur is just a "Call Name" for the same guns....Clear as mud, but clear now.

Thanks. We'll keep looking i did ask for the S/n of the Centennial on Auction Arms. if We get nothing else. I'm tempted to bid even if I have to pay an FFL transfer fee if it goes cheap. 

[Long Johns Wolf]

I've read this thread with interest and have corresponded with  Boot... ah, Long John Wolf and WT.
I have had some experience with Belgians 1860's...
Years ago in the 80's & 90's we would have about 1/2 doz. or so of these from the Gun rental houses on the prop trailer.

One in particular, I recall had Ivory looking grips put on it , from a Hubley Texan 45 (1860 toy cap gun ).
This Belgian was used on the film The Sacketts , the two piece grips were not a perfect fit but close enough for a holstered prop.
I was not closely involved with the Prop Trailer on the N&S trilogy , but I'll bet they had some.
On Glory we had some, but the Guns used by Matthew Broderick & C. Elways were Uberti , mostly the Belgians remain unused or perhaps as a sidearm for some bit part player... but Reenactors supplied their own guns.
I remember seeing some on Ironclads I don't know if Kelly & Ray (prop-masters) issued them .
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. 
If there were some on the "Gettysburg" shoot , I don't recall , though "Ironclads" was two years later, so I'm guessing Kelly had some. Maybe on God & Generals too.
The hand guns used on "Into the West" were all from Taylor's & Uberti's & were purchased,
because by this time, the rental guns were really bad.

 
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
as a side note , there are at times a call in the script (orders) for "Safe" rubber guns ( close hand to hand stuff )  many Enfields & Springfield's , a few Sharps and lots of bayonets are cast from the real deal.
I recall a rubber Belgian , you can see the Made in Belgian in the butt , where it was cast from the real pistol.

I have the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " used by Casey Biggs as Travis....as he died swinging it on camera.

This thread has piked my interest ... I would not mind finding one in good condition.... 

Now Major, please make my day and confirm that the 1860 Clint Easwood uses in THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES is a Centaure?!
Long Johns Wolf